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Thread: Hiroshima revisited: Dropping WMD on populated cities dishonorable way to win a war?

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    Default Hiroshima revisited: Dropping WMD on populated cities dishonorable way to win a war?

    Recently watched movie Fat Man & Little Boy that is based on US military's Manhattan project. Apparently at the time, some scientists and generals dissented and saw dropping of a WMD on a populated city without warning a dishonrable way to win a war. Do you agree or disagree with such a view?

    Little Boy was dropped on the city of Hiroshima on 6 August 1945, followed by the Fat Man over Nagasaki on 9 August. These WMDs dropped on two populated cities by US military killed over 200,000 civilians of Japanese race.
    Last edited by moderate libertarian; 04-03-2012 at 10:48 PM.



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  3. #2

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    Agree.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  4. #3

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    Japan wanted to surrender too.


    Dresden, Hiroshima, and Soviet Machinations


    Bruce Walker | The New American
    16 February 2012

    ...


    What happened in Europe was mirrored in the Pacific. As Professor Anthony Kubek recounted in his magisterial work, How the Far East was Lost: American Foreign Policy and the Creation of Communist China, 1941–1949 (Regnery: 1963), there need never have been a decision about whether to drop a fission bomb on Hiroshima or later on Nagasaki. Most historians say the decision to bomb Japanese cities was the natural consequence of Japanese imperialism, which made them unwilling to surrender under any conceivable circumstances; additionally, they assert that factored into the decision was the number of American soldiers who would likely die in the initial assault on the Home Islands of Japan.

    But, unlike the need for an unconditional surrender by Nazi Germany, there was no need to demand unconditional surrender of Japan. More than a year before Hiroshima, General Douglas MacArthur received surrender proposals from Japan and transmitted them, along with his own advice to accept these terms, prior to the Yalta Conference.

    What did these terms provide?


    1. Full surrender of the Japanese forces on the sea, in the air, at home, and in occupied countries
    2. Surrender of all arms and munitions
    3. Occupation of the Japanese homeland and island possessions by Allied troops under American direction
    4. Japanese relinquishment of Manchuria, Korea, Formosa, as well as all territory seized during the war
    5. Regulation of Japanese industry to halt present and future production of implements of war
    6. Surrender of all designated war criminals
    7. Release of all prisoners of war and interns in Japan proper and in areas under Japanese control


    These seven terms were Japan’s initial bargaining position for peace. The proposals were made on no less than seven occasions through American and British channels. However, FDR preferred to continue the war and, critically, to seek the “help” of Stalin against Japan — this despite the fact that Stalin had scrupulously adhered to his 1941 non-aggression pact with Japan until late 1945.

    MacArthur urged FDR to begin immediate negotiations and pleaded with the President not to invite Stalin to enter the war against Japan. FDR observed tersely, “MacArthur is our greatest general and our poorest politician.” But MacArthur considered that the lives of America's bravest — the Marines and infantrymen who need not have died on Okinawa and Iwo Jima in horrific campaigns if these surrender terms had been accepted — were worth something.
    ....

    Full Article:
    http://www.thenewamerican.com/histor...t-machinations
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  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    Agree.
    That would be a morally defensible stance imo.

    Shockingly, movie depicts a US military general who is hoping for using the WMD on Japan referring to people in Japan as "yellow monkies".

    If that is true and racial bias was also a motivator for US dropping WMDs on those cities, would that be considered a "hate crime" by todays PC standards?


    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    Japan wanted to surrender too.


    Dresden, Hiroshima, and Soviet Machinations

    ..
    Forgot to mention, that is shown in the movie too.
    Last edited by moderate libertarian; 04-03-2012 at 10:57 PM.

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    War is horror for those it is inflicted on . Honor ? quite frankly , honor only comes from individuals , in small snips of time , in a blur , do I believe I have always been honorable ? I think so , that probably makes me just as lucky as good , and I was very good ,would I expect such from all others ? No , that would be foolish. What would have been the cost to invade Imperial , World Conquering Japan ? Who would be willing to pay that price ? Would you like to have been one of the many dead who lay on those Islands and lands before? China ? The Phillipines ? etc how many family members do you have lost there ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moderate libertarian View Post
    That would be a morally defensible stance imo.

    Shockingly, movie depicts a US military general who is hoping for using the WMD on Japan referring to people in Japan as "yellow monkies".

    If that is true and racial bias was also a motivator for US dropping WMDs on those cities, would that be considered a "hate crime" by todays PC standards?




    Forgot to mention, that is shown in the movie too.
    Not yellow , very devoted fighters and killers of innocents , in fact , more disciplned than most could understand , ask yourself why / why so disciplined ??
    Last edited by oyarde; 04-03-2012 at 11:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    War is horror for those it is inflicted on . Honor ? quite frankly , honor only comes from individuals , in small snips of time , in a blur , do I believe I have always been honorable ? I think so , that probably makes me just as lucky as good , and I was very good ,would I expect such from all others ? No , that would be foolish. What would have been the cost to invade Imperial , World Conquering Japan ? Who would be willing to pay that price ? Would you like to have been one of the many dead who lay on those Islands and lands before? China ? The Phillipines ? etc how many family members do you have lost there ?
    well said.

    I once had the privilege of working with a scientist who was at Los Alamos during WWII; he said "Fat Man and Little Boy" was the most accurate depiction he'd ever seen and that the movie was excellent for educational purposes.

    And yes, if I recall correctly the peace organization that came out of that group was the Union of Concerned Scientists.

  9. #8

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    Neither agree nor disagree. It's unfair to apply standards to that decision with the advantage of hindsight. Leadership reasonably believed that an invasion of Japan would be necessary and that such an invasion would be a nasty, nasty affair for both sides. They also believed that the bomb would end the war with fewer casualties; they did what they did and ended the war.
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    New World Order wanted to show Stalin who was boss by demonstrating the weapons.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    New World Order wanted to show Stalin who was boss by demonstrating the weapons.
    What? America and the Soviet Union were basically friends in World War II.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    What? America and the Soviet Union were basically friends in World War II.
    The European Theatre was over. Had to get a head-start on the Cold War.
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    The European Theatre was over. Had to get a head-start on the Cold War.
    It become a "Cold War" because Russian spies stole our Nuclear Weapon technology.


    Article:

    Vladimir Putin Praises Communist Spies in U.S. for Stealing U.S. Nuclear Secrets
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...uclear-Secrets
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    What? America and the Soviet Union were basically friends in World War II.
    For post war hegemony & politics. We were not friends with the Soviet Union after WWII.

  15. #14

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    Here's a fun flick you can watch online:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexpe...films/pacific/

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    Quote Originally Posted by moderate libertarian View Post
    Recently watched movie Fat Man & Little Boy that is based on US military's Manhattan project. Apparently at the time, some scientists and generals dissented and saw dropping of a WMD on a populated city without warning a dishonrable way to win a war. Do you agree or disagree with such a view?

    Little Boy was dropped on the city of Hiroshima on 6 August 1945, followed by the Fat Man over Nagasaki on 9 August. These WMDs dropped on two populated cities by US military killed over 200,000 civilians of Japanese race.
    What Generals ? How many had ever been in harms way ? any WW1 Vets who had laid in the trenches with corpses of own men and corpses of enemy scattered about and piled so high in front of them , they needed to stand on something to shoot over it for the next onslought ? Could they remember , taste , hear & smell , the smell of rotting , maggot infested horse flesh , men , machine guns , wire etc . ??

  17. #16

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    Nobody ever mentions that Japan was also developing atomic bombs


    America did send Japan warnings of an attack (I've heard that any Japanese who picked up and read these leaflets would have been punished by the Japanese government though. But still, I'm sure the government didn't ignore them or make any effort to evacuate citizens):
    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...article07.html
    Back on Saipan, the OWI presses were turning out leaflets that revealed the special nature of Hiroshima’s destruction and predicted similar fates for more Japanese cities in the absence of immediate acceptance of the terms of the Potsdam agreement. By 9 August, more than 5 million leaflets about the atom bomb had been released over major Japanese cities. The OWI radio station beamed a similar message to Japan every 15 minutes.

    The Japanese text on the reverse side of the leaflet carried the following warning: “Read this carefully as it may save your life or the life of a relative or friend. In the next few days, some or all of the cities named on the reverse side will be destroyed by American bombs. These cities contain military installations and workshops or factories which produce military goods. We are determined to destroy all of the tools of the military clique which they are using to prolong this useless war. But, unfortunately, bombs have no eyes. So, in accordance with America's humanitarian policies, the American Air Force, which does not wish to injure innocent people, now gives you warning to evacuate the cities named and save your lives. America is not fighting the Japanese people but is fighting the military clique which has enslaved the Japanese people. The peace which America will bring will free the people from the oppression of the military clique and mean the emergence of a new and better Japan. You can restore peace by demanding new and good leaders who will end the war. We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked but some or all of them will be, so heed this warning and evacuate these cities immediately.” (See Richard S. R. Hubert, “The OWI Saipan Operation,” Official Report to US Information Service, Washington, DC 1946.)

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    Truly , what we need is less war , less invasions , more acceptance of others , regardless of how barbarian they may look to me , I am , Not THEM and it is not may place to interfere , I do not have to approve , or believe , I only have to do what , I really should do , take care of my own . I am willing to accept this , and others must be as well...

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    um the japanese empire was more cruel than the nazis, the real question is whether or not they would have attacked us if we had not blocked their supply routes before pearl harbor
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    When is it ever acceptable to launch a nuke?
    Last edited by Lishy; 04-04-2012 at 12:45 AM.

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    How can anyone disagree. We dropped atomic bombs on paper cities. WE EVAPORATED BABIES FOR CHRIST SAKES. The Japanese could of landed on our mainland with the helping hand of god. The were fighting on multiple fronts without oil to boot.

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    Truly , what we need is less war , less invasions , more acceptance of others , regardless of how barbarian they may look to me , I am , Not THEM and it is not may place to interfere , I do not have to approve , or believe , I only have to do what , I really should do , take care of my own . I am willing to accept this , and others must be as well...

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    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    New World Order wanted to show Stalin who was boss by demonstrating the weapons.
    By dropping German nukes on Japan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    There would be riots in the streets, if boobus gave one shit about his honor.
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    To reply to the OP:

    How do you spell fair? W-I-N
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    There would be riots in the streets, if boobus gave one shit about his honor.
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    Bombing of Dresden anyone? Our U.S. government claims that Dresden was a manufacturing city that had to be bombed....is this true? I doubt it was true since we were already winning the war before the carpet bombing of Dresden.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    What? America and the Soviet Union were basically friends in World War II.
    Not at that point. One of the ideas behind the bombing, other than the thought of saving lives, was to avoid sharing occupation zones of Japan with the Soviets. After Yalta and the partitioning of Berlin and the U.S.S.R. guarantee to enter the war against Japan, we wanted to end the war before Soviet involvement to avoid them from getting a foothold in Japan. They had already reneged on Poland at this point, and Truman was becoming adversarial with Stalin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BamaAla View Post
    Neither agree nor disagree. It's unfair to apply standards to that decision with the advantage of hindsight. Leadership reasonably believed that an invasion of Japan would be necessary and that such an invasion would be a nasty, nasty affair for both sides. They also believed that the bomb would end the war with fewer casualties; they did what they did and ended the war.
    Couldn't agree more. Well, said and represenative of the truth. Shame on those who dishonor our countrymen by siding with one of the greatest and most hideous enemies we ever faced, shame.
    Last edited by AME3; 04-04-2012 at 12:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainAmerica View Post
    Bombing of Dresden anyone? Our U.S. government claims that Dresden was a manufacturing city that had to be bombed....is this true? I doubt it was true since we were already winning the war before the carpet bombing of Dresden.
    I'm not familiar with this, but it's a good rule of thumb to not believe anything our government says.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    There would be riots in the streets, if boobus gave one shit about his honor.
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    The nukes were nothing, the fire bombing of the major cities was the worst. Far more civilians burned to death from that than the nukes combined. The fire bombings were flat out war crimes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainAmerica View Post
    Bombing of Dresden anyone? Our U.S. government claims that Dresden was a manufacturing city that had to be bombed....is this true? I doubt it was true since we were already winning the war before the carpet bombing of Dresden.
    Dresden, Hiroshima, and Soviet Machinations


    The anniversary of the Allied bombing of Dresden on February 13 and 14, 1945 has become an increasingly contentious memory for thousands of Germans. Historians have debated the military value of the old and crowded city, some saying it had little significance, with others pointing out that until the bombing it was still active with war production. What few doubt is that the war was already lost for Germany before the bombing of Dresden, and that the unconditional surrender demanded by President Roosevelt was inevitable in a few weeks no matter what.
    ...

    Even if bombing had been the only way to defeat the Nazis, the immolation of Dresden was disastrously ineffective (however, in no way diminishing the courage and nobility of American airmen who fought and died in large numbers for their country). Two years before Dresden, in “Operation Gomorrah,” British night bombers and American daylight bombers pounded Hamburg around the clock until fire services were overwhelmed, streets quite literally melted, and Germans of all ages were sucked by hundred-mile-an-hour winds into firestorms which killed in a few nights as many as would die in Dresden.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BamaAla View Post
    Not at that point. One of the ideas behind the bombing, other than the thought of saving lives, was to avoid sharing occupation zones of Japan with the Soviets. After Yalta and the partitioning of Berlin and the U.S.S.R. guarantee to enter the war against Japan, we wanted to end the war before Soviet involvement to avoid them from getting a foothold in Japan. They had already reneged on Poland at this point, and Truman was becoming adversarial with Stalin.
    I didn't know until recently that the Soviets had already invaded China by this time.

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