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Thread: Mujahideen during Soviet invasion

  1. #1

    Default Mujahideen during Soviet invasion

    What was Ron Paul's position on supporting the mujahideen during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? What is the general consensus on having supported them in the "Paul" community?



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  3. #2

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    He probably said "we should mind our own business"

  4. #3

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    I'm non-interventionist, but the collapse of the Soviet Union, our rival Communist superpower, was good was it not? I think is safe to say that this was basically a success.

    If anything, it was that we had no good exit plan that was problematic.

  5. #4

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    I'm non-interventionist, but the collapse of the Soviet Union, our rival Communist superpower, was good was it not? I think is safe to say that this was basically a success.

    If anything, it was that we had no good exit plan that was problematic.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron doe View Post
    I'm non-interventionist, but the collapse of the Soviet Union, our rival Communist superpower, was good was it not? I think is safe to say that this was basically a success.

    If anything, it was that we had no good exit plan that was problematic.
    There were many cases of American interventionism that benefited America and the world. Even today, our presence in South Korea and Taiwan are essential in preventing a Communist take over and a Chinese Empire. You don't have to be a dogmatic non-interventionist to be a Ron Paul supporter. In fact Ron's son, Rand Paul, agrees with intervention to a certain extent. So do Justin Amash and Jeff Flake.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLibertarianNationalist View Post
    There were many cases of American interventionism that benefited America and the world.
    Dubious claim..


    And Communism is not anywhere in the world. IT DOES NOT EXIST. What does exist is varying flavors of socialism.
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  8. #7

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    S Korea and the ROC are willing to defend themselves, and selling the weapons that make it more able for them to do so is consistent with a non intervention strategy.

    Supplying trainers and advisers is acceptable, as long as the allies are defensively oriented.

    Sending in the US Army to defend people who will not defend themselves is a waste of the lives of our citizens.

    American Volunteer Group operations should be the way to go for those who feel strongly about helping other vountries.
    Last edited by Pericles; 03-30-2012 at 08:23 AM.
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  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron doe View Post
    I'm non-interventionist, but the collapse of the Soviet Union, our rival Communist superpower, was good was it not? I think is safe to say that this was basically a success.

    If anything, it was that we had no good exit plan that was problematic.
    The no exit plan thing is a sham. President of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haas was on John Stewart's show about a year ago when the subject of Afghanistan came up. Haas said our biggest problem was that "we took our eye off the ball in Afghanistan" and stopped paying attention to it. Stewart replied with a simple question that put a massive hole in that rationale by asking when it WOULD be okay take our eye off that country...Haas, of course, had no answer.

  10. #9

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    Well, whether the Soviet Union was Communist is not really very relevant; the US eliminated a rival superpower with intervention in Afghanistan.

    @moonshineplease, I see your point about the no exit plan (there was really no way to exit cleanly). I think it has to admitted though that our success in Afghanistan in the 80's had well outweighed the cost.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron doe View Post
    Well, whether the Soviet Union was Communist is not really very relevant; the US eliminated a rival superpower with intervention in Afghanistan.

    @moonshineplease, I see your point about the no exit plan (there was really no way to exit cleanly). I think it has to admitted though that our success in Afghanistan in the 80's had well outweighed the cost.
    Silliness. There's never a need to "eliminate" anyone unless they pose a real threat. The Soviets had been allies with the US regime since WWII. The Cold War was just a big prick-waving contest between egomaniacal sociopaths who wanted to dominate huge chunks of the world. (whether or not the ICBMs were a true threat is debatable. IMO the USSR was way too weak to ever even try to carry out a "hot" war)

    ETA: The "success" in Afghanistan has outweighed the cost? Srsly? Do the maths for me to prove your claim.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 03-30-2012 at 05:21 PM.
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  12. #11

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    The Soviet Union collapsed because communism doesn't work. Anyone who really understanding the economics of WHY communism doesn't work also understands that it was never necessary to try and contain communism around the world. It is an unworkable economic system.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

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  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron doe View Post
    Well, whether the Soviet Union was Communist is not really very relevant; the US eliminated a rival superpower with intervention in Afghanistan..
    Rival in what sense? In the sense of contending with the USA for domination of other countries and their resources? Since when is that a legitimate or Constitutional function of our government?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  14. #13

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    Our involvement in Afghanistan was criminal. We funded the mujahadeen before the Soviets invaded in order to draw them in. We radicalized an entire nation, even going so far as to send jihadi textbooks to Afghan children. CIA money went to the same radical muslims we are supposedly fighting. Yes Osama Bin Laden got funding this way, though not directly through the U.S. During the "Cold War" we managed to hold on to most of our freedoms. Post 9/11? You tell me? Personally I'd gladly go back to 1979 geopolitically if we could.
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  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron doe View Post
    Well, whether the Soviet Union was Communist is not really very relevant; the US eliminated a rival superpower with intervention in Afghanistan.
    And in the process we set the stage for our own demise and the rise of Communist China as the new undisputed super power. Right now it's only a matter of time unless we get off the path we're on.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Eze 22:25 There's a conspiracy of prophets within her....

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Our involvement in Afghanistan was criminal. We funded the mujahadeen before the Soviets invaded in order to draw them in. We radicalized an entire nation, even going so far as to send jihadi textbooks to Afghan children. CIA money went to the same radical muslims we are supposedly fighting. Yes Osama Bin Laden got funding this way, though not directly through the U.S. During the "Cold War" we managed to hold on to most of our freedoms. Post 9/11? You tell me? Personally I'd gladly go back to 1979 geopolitically if we could.
    Great points! +rep thanx. ~hugs~
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  17. #16

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    BLOWBACK.....

    How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen

    Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didnít believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You donít regret anything today?

    Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

    Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

    Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

    Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

    Brzezinski: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isnít a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.
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  18. #17

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    Thanks for helping me out guys. I am kind of playing devil's advocate here, but I do feel that intervention can be good in specific occasions (and I think this specific case did have a net positive).

    Well, the Soviets did place nuclear weapons in Cuba, so they had seriously threatened our national security and directly violated our policies (Monroe Doctrine). They placed spies in our country. Also, our interventions in Afghanistan may very have been a ploy to draw the Soviets in, but it succeeded and brought about an end to the USSR.

    With regards to civil liberties, there is no reason we can't have our "civil liberties of 1979" back. It is not a necessity, the current state of our civil liberties, but instead, a function of bad policy in my opinion.

    Could someone also explain what was meant by "criminal" when referring to the invasion of Afghanistan? Thanks!

    I am trying hard to better understand these issues and to form better, more informed opinions.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron doe View Post
    Well, the Soviets did place nuclear weapons in Cuba, so they had seriously threatened our national security and directly violated our policies (Monroe Doctrine). They placed spies in our country. Also, our interventions in Afghanistan may very have been a ploy to draw the Soviets in, but it succeeded and brought about an end to the USSR.
    And the US had the USSR surrounded with nuclear weapons well before the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US had nuclear weapons in Germany, UK, France, Italy, Turkey and Spain.

    Afghanistan is not the reason the USSR collapsed. It would have collapsed anyway, central planning simply does not work. (but don't the Fed that)

  20. #19
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    Ron, as far as I know and can understand, no. As for The Big Flipper...

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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingpointes View Post


    Ron, as far as I know and can understand, no. As for The Big Flipper...
    Lol wow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    And the US had the USSR surrounded with nuclear weapons well before the Cuban Missile Crisis. The US had nuclear weapons in Germany, UK, France, Italy, Turkey and Spain.

    Afghanistan is not the reason the USSR collapsed. It would have collapsed anyway, central planning simply does not work. (but don't the Fed that)
    qft
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John F Kennedy III View Post
    Lol wow.
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  24. #23

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    It was stupid to support them. They would have won anyway, just like Islamists are winning all over that region. Intervention never changes regional policy long term. It just delays the inevitable, and makes people angry at us.

    I could make a better argument for invading Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a very bad person and it was good to get rid of him. All said and done, however, it was a stupid thing to do.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by furface View Post
    It was stupid to support them. They would have won anyway, just like Islamists are winning all over that region. Intervention never changes regional policy long term. It just delays the inevitable, and makes people angry at us.

    I could make a better argument for invading Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a very bad person and it was good to get rid of him.
    All said and done, however, it was a stupid thing to do.
    That's not a very good argument. If that's the only requisite for invading someplace and overthrowing the regime, THIS country's regime should have been overthrown long ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by danke View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by ron doe View Post
    I'm non-interventionist, but the collapse of the Soviet Union, our rival Communist superpower, was good was it not? I think is safe to say that this was basically a success.

    If anything, it was that we had no good exit plan that was problematic.
    Reason said that the fall of the USSR had more to do with the voluntary acceptance of youth of rebellious popular culture that was voluntarily disseminated by artists, and less to do with the bankrupting of the country through proxiwars fueled by involuntary american taxes.

    if that is true, then not only was the subsidizing a waste of our money, and immoral because it involved violent theft of that money in order for it to be spent, but it was a disaster, because it helped to fuel the radical islamic militancy that now haunts us today.

    and even if that subsidization DID help us to destroy the ussr, the ussr wasnt an almighty omnipotent enemy to begin with. they did not pose as much of a threat as everyone liked to believe, and precisely because it was so statist in its economy, odds are it was gonna fall of its own bureaucratic weight anyways.
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  27. #26

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    That's not a very good argument. If that's the only requisite for invading someplace and overthrowing the regime, THIS country's regime should have been overthrown long ago.
    I think you're right. I wish someone would invade Washington and overthrow it. Americans don't seem to have the stomach for it. It's funny what people are willing to die for. They seem to be willing to die to expel foreign invaders before they will die to expel their own local tyrants.

    Ironically American interventionists haven't realized this yet. The fact that Washington DC isn't a blood bath yet should wake them up to the fact that people are usually willing to live indefinitely with their own local dictators. They'll rise up to expel foreign "liberators" before they'll worry about their own tyrants.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by ron doe View Post
    Thanks for helping me out guys. I am kind of playing devil's advocate here, but I do feel that intervention can be good in specific occasions (and I think this specific case did have a net positive).
    Governmnet is pretty inept. It cannot reliably deliver good and services. What is so special about foreign intervention when government suddenly becomes smart and can reliably predict outcomes of intervention abroad?

    Counting blowback, direct cost in life & limb, money, wasted resource, I think it is impossible to predict that an intervention is net positive.

    Well, the Soviets did place nuclear weapons in Cuba, so they had seriously threatened our national security and directly violated our policies (Monroe Doctrine).
    Well, we placed missiles in Turkey. Soviets showed how unpleasant it could be to have nukes right on our border. We realized and took missiles out of Turkey in exchange for removing nukes from Cuba. Seems like a normal, geopolitical tit for tat.

    our interventions in Afghanistan may very have been a ploy to draw the Soviets in, but it succeeded and brought about an end to the USSR.
    Central planning can't work. Soviet Union was going down even before 1979. Also, unlike US, Russia's millitary is much much cheaper. It does not cost $1,000,000 per year per soldier. Soldiers were conscripts. No airconditioned tents and fancy MREs. It might have speeded up bankrupcy of USSR by 6 month.

    Could someone also explain what was meant by "criminal" when referring to the invasion of Afghanistan? Thanks!

    I am trying hard to better understand these issues and to form better, more informed opinions.
    Doing known bad in an attempt to achieve potential good. Government is very bad predictor. In hindsight you can see that we directly funded and enabled to grow to the same people who killed 3000 americans on 9/11.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLibertarianNationalist View Post
    There were many cases of American interventionism that benefited America and the world. Even today, our presence in South Korea and Taiwan are essential in preventing a Communist take over and a Chinese Empire. You don't have to be a dogmatic non-interventionist to be a Ron Paul supporter. In fact Ron's son, Rand Paul, agrees with intervention to a certain extent. So do Justin Amash and Jeff Flake.
    I suggest you read Blowback before making such claims.
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toureg89 View Post
    Reason said that the fall of the USSR had more to do with the voluntary acceptance of youth of rebellious popular culture that was voluntarily disseminated by artists, and less to do with the bankrupting of the country through proxiwars fueled by involuntary american taxes.

    if that is true, then not only was the subsidizing a waste of our money, and immoral because it involved violent theft of that money in order for it to be spent, but it was a disaster, because it helped to fuel the radical islamic militancy that now haunts us today.

    and even if that subsidization DID help us to destroy the ussr, the ussr wasnt an almighty omnipotent enemy to begin with. they did not pose as much of a threat as everyone liked to believe, and precisely because it was so statist in its economy, odds are it was gonna fall of its own bureaucratic weight anyways.
    Also, our soft power had a lot to do with the collapse, which you alluded to a little bit. Believe it or not, our rock n roll had a lot to do with the fall of Communist Russia (USSR)
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

  31. #30

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    It's funny how we were the antitheses of what we are doing now, back in the early 1700's.

    That's what government and politicians do. They f*ck shit up and make us forget our history.

    Everything we as a country stand for is being thrown out the window because of fear.
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

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