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Thread: Free Community Project

  1. #31

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    I don't want to derail this thread but I believe building intentional communities would greatly improve how our states and country operate. Let people make the decisions that effect them at the lowest level possible, the community. This way people who want their community (government) to provide for everyone can and those who are more self-reliant can operate right next door but separate living life the way they see fit. The higher you go in government the more limited it should be.
    Insanity should be defined as trusting the government to solve a problem they caused in the first place. Please do not go insane!



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonySutton View Post
    I don't want to derail this thread but I believe building intentional communities would greatly improve how our states and country operate. Let people make the decisions that effect them at the lowest level possible, the community. This way people who want their community (government) to provide for everyone can and those who are more self-reliant can operate right next door but separate living life the way they see fit. The higher you go in government the more limited it should be.
    It does NOT derail, on the contrary. You are directly on point, and absolutely right.

    Not to discount miracles/luck/serendipity/et al. and not to ignore errors/accidents/failures/et al. but, on balance, it is my experience that INTENTIONAL things work out rather better than haphazard or path-of-least-resistance things.
    Last edited by cheapseats; 03-29-2012 at 06:35 PM.

  4. #33

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    There is currently hundreds of acres of organic land in Goodhue County Minnesota that is owned by older farmers. These farmers are more interested in keeping the land under sustainable management and eventually going to someone who would appreciate it rather than selling it off for whatever.
    The infrastructure is already in place and even the county land management staff wants something like this to happen, but we need people. Real people. Not lazy dreamers, but people who are actually interested in working to take care of themselves.

    This is for real. We have had several farmer meetings already, and the farmers are somewhat desperate to get people working their land.
    I have one camper trailer here already as temp housing for anyone that is serious about this. Ideally, it would be someone who already has a business plan but just needs an opportunity. Being direct market farmers already, we have a marketing chain already in place for virtually anything anyone could produce here. The idea is to have a community that is basically self reliant so that most of the community's needs can be taken care of internally. If it is done right everyone could accomplish a $100,000 lifestyle for $20,000 a year.
    Didn't mean to throw a wet blanket on your daydreaming with an actual opportunity.
    "This here's Miss Bonnie Parker. I'm Clyde Barrow. We rob banks."

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    There is currently hundreds of acres of organic land in Goodhue County Minnesota that is owned by older farmers. These farmers are more interested in keeping the land under sustainable management and eventually going to someone who would appreciate it rather than selling it off for whatever.
    The infrastructure is already in place and even the county land management staff wants something like this to happen, but we need people. Real people. Not lazy dreamers, but people who are actually interested in working to take care of themselves.

    This is for real. We have had several farmer meetings already, and the farmers are somewhat desperate to get people working their land.
    I have one camper trailer here already as temp housing for anyone that is serious about this. Ideally, it would be someone who already has a business plan but just needs an opportunity. Being direct market farmers already, we have a marketing chain already in place for virtually anything anyone could produce here. The idea is to have a community that is basically self reliant so that most of the community's needs can be taken care of internally. If it is done right everyone could accomplish a $100,000 lifestyle for $20,000 a year.

    Didn't mean to throw a wet blanket on your daydreaming with an actual opportunity.

    This is indeed an extraordinary opportunity. Are the older Farmers willing to MENTOR, or perhaps BARTER Knowledge and Know-HOW?

    I would add, frustrated as I am by the immobility of people who SAY they are sick of this shit, etc, etc, but who are EXACTLY where they were five years ago, I don't think Activists are LAZY. Misguided sometimes, inefficient, gullible, whatever, but not lazy. Most people are trapped. By lack of cash, by DEBT, by home ownership, by "pre-existing conditions", by PEOPLE. They are not the only ones in their world, and they are morally obliged to take others into account.

    FREEDOM IS JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE has a certain amount of sad Truth to it.

    A'course, there is also a lotta BIG TALK . . . one of America's surpluses. And cheap, too!

    Just lately, I spotted a thread along the lines of DO YOU HAVE A RON PAUL GIRLFRIEND/WIFE?, wherein a dispiriting percent of self-described Activist/Freedom Fighters/Patriots say their "better half" (not that they would use THAT term) aren't really "into" politics and that they don't feel the need to "get into it" with them, as they do plenty of that with Others.

    And people wonder why the Moovement languishes. America has changed so much, my LIFE has changed so much (need I mention FOR THE WORSE?), it is literally now INCONCEIVABLE to me to partner with someone who is apolitical or ideologically incompatible.
    Last edited by cheapseats; 03-29-2012 at 09:18 PM.

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    There is currently hundreds of acres of organic land in Goodhue County Minnesota that is owned by older farmers. These farmers are more interested in keeping the land under sustainable management and eventually going to someone who would appreciate it rather than selling it off for whatever.
    The infrastructure is already in place and even the county land management staff wants something like this to happen, but we need people. Real people. Not lazy dreamers, but people who are actually interested in working to take care of themselves.

    This is for real. We have had several farmer meetings already, and the farmers are somewhat desperate to get people working their land.
    I have one camper trailer here already as temp housing for anyone that is serious about this. Ideally, it would be someone who already has a business plan but just needs an opportunity. Being direct market farmers already, we have a marketing chain already in place for virtually anything anyone could produce here. The idea is to have a community that is basically self reliant so that most of the community's needs can be taken care of internally. If it is done right everyone could accomplish a $100,000 lifestyle for $20,000 a year.
    Didn't mean to throw a wet blanket on your daydreaming with an actual opportunity.

    GOBS of responses, or nary a one?

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    I guess I had to name it something .... anyway, I posted the basics of the plan I have underway elsewhere on RPF:

    The plan is relatively simple, which is why there might be a chance of success. A county has been targeted which has a part time sheriff and no other law enforcement, a county wide school district with less than 50 students, a low population, no zoning laws, low property and other taxes as a result of low population, and no aquifier district, which under the laws of the state, do not restrict water wells.

    Do a FSP in miniature, but the location is isolated (which makes it a good SHTF bug out location), so you move your residence there for voting and tax purposes and build your bug out place. Then we start on economic development that would eventually allow for full time residence and build an actual defendable community.

    At the state level, there is no income tax, a sales tax, which a barter system avoids, car registration @ about $50 per year, and controlling the county board controls tax rates on property. Depending on your profession, there may be some state licensing or regulations, but other than that you could be as free person as is possible in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by TonySutton View Post
    I don't want to derail this thread but I believe building intentional communities would greatly improve how our states and country operate. Let people make the decisions that effect them at the lowest level possible, the community. This way people who want their community (government) to provide for everyone can and those who are more self-reliant can operate right next door but separate living life the way they see fit. The higher you go in government the more limited it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    It does NOT derail, on the contrary. You are directly on point, and absolutely right.

    Not to discount miracles/luck/serendipity/et al. and not to ignore errors/accidents/failures/et al. but, on balance, it is my experience that INTENTIONAL things work out rather better than haphazard or path-of-least-resistance things.

    Having been "put in my place" by the venerable team of G-Wohl and LibertyEagle, neither of whom I like OR respect OR trust, it occurs to me that perhaps I derailed THIS thread. If so, Pericles, I apologize.
    Last edited by cheapseats; 04-02-2012 at 02:42 PM.

  8. #37

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    I've been away for a few days. Was at a re-enactment at Shiloh and visiting with a friend who is also a re-enactor and working on 19th Century farming techniques to determine crop yields and documenting natural cheese making among other things. We had a deal of information to exchange on our projects, and some comparisons of reults of experiments to better determine which options work under a given set of circumstances.

    I'll try to catch up on the thread later tonight.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    (Underwhelming) Free State Project = New Hampshire = Fucking Freezing

    Free Community Project, presumably = Texas.

    I am not just whistling Dixie when I say I believe #JeffersonState is doable, and that it is doable NOW.

    #JeffersonState would be GRAVY; it is not NECESSARY to the tenability of an Alternative Community. WHETHER OR NOT #JeffersonState happens, WHETHER OR NOT A PURPOSEFUL COMMUNITY COALESCES, the area comprised by what WOULDA BEEN/CAN BE Jefferson State is the best place I have found, FOR ME, to ride out a CHANGED EXISTENCE on the best possible terms, considering ground conditions.

    For ME, the Pacific Northwest has it ALL OVER New Hampshire and Texas ('cept for that oil thing, but #JeffersonState has wine and weed).

    Let me address these concepts first. I'm trying to avoid a location that is one where an alteration to the existing political / legal framework would be required to be successful long term. Short term success needed to start to build critical mass should be done in such a way that it causes minimal disruption in peoples' lives. I'm looking at a framework, where $1000 gets one acre of land that has no zoning, or other restrictions on what you can do with it, will have a tax of less than $5 per acre per year, as your only unavoidable cost. Move you residence to the location for voting and taxes, build what you want when you want, connect to coop water and electric if you want to.

    As the number of people who "buy in" increase, the infrastructure gets built, do some agriculture, maybe a business or two. Over time the natural attraction and growth will result in the control of county government. That puts all taxes under our control except for school property tax (state mandated minimum), but we would control property valuations, which are the basis of the tax, and there is a state sales tax. Other than vehicle registration, the only non federal government you would see is if your occupation is regulated by the state.

    One of the things now happening in Texas is litigation over water rights. The selected location is not in a aquifer district, which is important. If you are in a aquifer district, they can force you to permit your well for irrigation purposes. Currently the TX Supreme Court is looking at curtailing the ability of districts to do that, under the principle that anything under your land is yours.

    TX tends to be good on property rights, which is also a consideration.

    One of the considerations on location is climate and the other big consideration is how much government influence can you tolerate. In my view the legal climate of the state chosen is the big factor.

    In my view, Jefferson State is a viable post SHTF option, before SHTF, the residents are subject to CA and OR laws, and that may preclude success.

    NH has much going for it - a local rule mindset is very helpful, but I'm concerned about the impact the population density of the region could have on long term viability.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    There is currently hundreds of acres of organic land in Goodhue County Minnesota that is owned by older farmers. These farmers are more interested in keeping the land under sustainable management and eventually going to someone who would appreciate it rather than selling it off for whatever.
    The infrastructure is already in place and even the county land management staff wants something like this to happen, but we need people. Real people. Not lazy dreamers, but people who are actually interested in working to take care of themselves.

    This is for real. We have had several farmer meetings already, and the farmers are somewhat desperate to get people working their land.
    I have one camper trailer here already as temp housing for anyone that is serious about this. Ideally, it would be someone who already has a business plan but just needs an opportunity. Being direct market farmers already, we have a marketing chain already in place for virtually anything anyone could produce here. The idea is to have a community that is basically self reliant so that most of the community's needs can be taken care of internally. If it is done right everyone could accomplish a $100,000 lifestyle for $20,000 a year.
    Didn't mean to throw a wet blanket on your daydreaming with an actual opportunity.
    Who has ownership of the land?

    What are the tax rates and authorities?

    State income tax?

    Water and electric on grid?

    Incorporated communities - zoning?

    population density?

    It is nice to want to be a farmer, but there is more that goes into creating a freedom community. Let's evaluate thos opportunity for those who like the climate in the region.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  11. #40

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    I know Mike Reynolds ran into trouble in NM when he built his Earthship community. The county got a new building inspector and it threw a wrench into his dream. The previous inspector had allowed Mike to do just about anything he wished with little supervision. The new building inspector determined that the earthship community was a sub division and Mike became responsible for environmental studies, roads, ditches, etc. It is important to go into these things with your eyes wide open. I mentioned before that I am reading Creating a Life Together and it could be very helpful to anyone wanting to embark on such an adventure.

    Regarding water and electricity, I would suggest using cisterns, solar and wind locally. I would suggest the land be owned by a legal entity and any land sold would have stipulations on it that fall in the line with the vision the members have for the community. Also that the land can only be sold back to the legal entity (or at least first option) to keep the community vision in focus. Some groups have been successful by forming an entity similar to a home owners association and using consensus building for making changes to the vision. The rules laid out for the consensus building can be constructed in a way that protects the rights of each property owner by forcing unanimous consent for all or certain changes.
    Insanity should be defined as trusting the government to solve a problem they caused in the first place. Please do not go insane!

  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    There is currently hundreds of acres of organic land in Goodhue County Minnesota that is owned by older farmers. These farmers are more interested in keeping the land under sustainable management and eventually going to someone who would appreciate it rather than selling it off for whatever.
    The infrastructure is already in place and even the county land management staff wants something like this to happen, but we need people. Real people. Not lazy dreamers, but people who are actually interested in working to take care of themselves.

    This is for real. We have had several farmer meetings already, and the farmers are somewhat desperate to get people working their land.
    I have one camper trailer here already as temp housing for anyone that is serious about this. Ideally, it would be someone who already has a business plan but just needs an opportunity. Being direct market farmers already, we have a marketing chain already in place for virtually anything anyone could produce here. The idea is to have a community that is basically self reliant so that most of the community's needs can be taken care of internally. If it is done right everyone could accomplish a $100,000 lifestyle for $20,000 a year.

    Didn't mean to throw a wet blanket on your daydreaming with an actual opportunity.

    I stand corrected.

  13. #42
    Member helmuth_hubener's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    A county has been targeted
    Pericles, is there any way you could put off final decisions for a while? I have been waiting for the campaign season to wrap up, then was going to launch a free community, geographical concentration strategy. It would have its own subforum here, if Josh allows it (we'll donate lots of money as a way of saying "please"). We'd make sure to have a minimum number of highly committed movers before selecting a location. We'd plan things out in advance, we'd choose a location where the numbers are such that we'd be successful, and in short we'd do things right.

    I am up for geographical concentration, many are up for it. Maybe now is the time and later in the year would be too late? Perhaps. In any case, let's talk about things and work out a plan. I myself moved to North-east Wyoming as part of the Free State Wyoming, and went down to Loving County, Texas, when that group was busy buying up remote land, sometimes with easement/access problems, and getting warrants issued for their arrest. And I was involved in the FSP. The FSP was run the best, that is the way to do it, but with a few very important tweaks. And, obviously, focusing on a small community, not a whole state.
    Download hundreds of Ron Paul songs: by Torrent or Dropbox

  14. #43

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    Been away for awhile. I now have just a little breathing room between the CD convention (We won!) and state.
    OK,

    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Who has ownership of the land?
    There are several older farmers that, as far as I know, own the land free and clear. They paid for their land decades ago when the countryside was populated by small, working farms, much of it for $200/acre or less. If someone is willing to work toward keeping the land productive, ownership will not be an issue. Finding useable land for $1000/acre now, in my opinion, is as likely as colonizing Venus. The owners of these farms understand that the artificial price of land is a barrier to entry into farming. Their attachment to the land is as much emotional as it is financial, which is why they want to work with people to "adopt" it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    What are the tax rates and authorities?
    We have fairly low tax rates for ag land, somewhere in the neighborhood of $30/acre. There are definitely allies in the county land use management office, but like everything, there are government stooges that just don't get it too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    State income tax?
    Minnesota does have an income tax if you have income of sufficient size.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Water and electric on grid?
    Everyone here has his own well. Electricity is pretty conventional, although the local electric co-op is easy to work with, and actually has incentives to help its customers to achieve energy efficiency. Goodhue County is kind of the focal point of grid issues right now because of all of the proposed projects. This has the unintended consequence of turning people into libertarians and making them battle tested veteran political activists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Incorporated communities - zoning?
    With a little ass kissing, anything goes, especially if it is ag related. With my involvement with the county in the last few years, it is likely that I make them a little bit nervous and they will be unwilling to look like pricks since I have a pretty good support group right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Population density?
    I believe the rural population density is around 13 people per square mile. Several years ago, the county planner (he needs to go in the worst way) decided that the county is "full" and put a moratorium on new homes in sections with 4 or more homes in it. All this accomplished was to create a climate where our jackass commissioners could grant political favors to their constituents for votes as the crap economy curtailed housing development more than any weak-ass ordinance did. There is a loophole in the ordinance where second dwellings on a farm for farm or family use is permitted, and temporary housing is completely unregulated up to 4 "campsites".
    The government structure has to be incredibly sensitive since most of the farms have been in the same families since before the county government was established. Makes for some interesting political theater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    It is nice to want to be a farmer, but there is more that goes into creating a freedom community. Let's evaluate thos opportunity for those who like the climate in the region.
    The learning curve is pretty steep, but you don't get bored. The Gestalt principle applies here as two people working together can accomplish far more than twice as much as either one working alone.
    "This here's Miss Bonnie Parker. I'm Clyde Barrow. We rob banks."

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Pericles, is there any way you could put off final decisions for a while? I have been waiting for the campaign season to wrap up, then was going to launch a free community, geographical concentration strategy. It would have its own subforum here, if Josh allows it (we'll donate lots of money as a way of saying "please"). We'd make sure to have a minimum number of highly committed movers before selecting a location. We'd plan things out in advance, we'd choose a location where the numbers are such that we'd be successful, and in short we'd do things right.

    I am up for geographical concentration, many are up for it. Maybe now is the time and later in the year would be too late? Perhaps. In any case, let's talk about things and work out a plan. I myself moved to North-east Wyoming as part of the Free State Wyoming, and went down to Loving County, Texas, when that group was busy buying up remote land, sometimes with easement/access problems, and getting warrants issued for their arrest. And I was involved in the FSP. The FSP was run the best, that is the way to do it, but with a few very important tweaks. And, obviously, focusing on a small community, not a whole state.
    Nothing final yet - as with any group, there are those who want it done already and I hold them off with the figure it take to do it vis a vis buying your own property somewhere, in which you would still be an individual on your own. OTOH, I'm working around and issue or two. Example is that in TX, any water system with 25 or more connections has to be registered and inspected, so re-costing based on one well per 24 connections.

    Very interested to keep up with what you are doing. One of my constraints is that this is a BOL for many of the participants, thus there is a geographical limitation for many of the participants in this plan, but there is no reason why this can / should not be replicated anywhere circumstances are favorable.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  16. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    Been away for awhile. I now have just a little breathing room between the CD convention (We won!) and state.
    OK,


    There are several older farmers that, as far as I know, own the land free and clear. They paid for their land decades ago when the countryside was populated by small, working farms, much of it for $200/acre or less. If someone is willing to work toward keeping the land productive, ownership will not be an issue. Finding useable land for $1000/acre now, in my opinion, is as likely as colonizing Venus. The owners of these farms understand that the artificial price of land is a barrier to entry into farming. Their attachment to the land is as much emotional as it is financial, which is why they want to work with people to "adopt" it.

    We have fairly low tax rates for ag land, somewhere in the neighborhood of $30/acre. There are definitely allies in the county land use management office, but like everything, there are government stooges that just don't get it too.

    Minnesota does have an income tax if you have income of sufficient size.

    Everyone here has his own well. Electricity is pretty conventional, although the local electric co-op is easy to work with, and actually has incentives to help its customers to achieve energy efficiency. Goodhue County is kind of the focal point of grid issues right now because of all of the proposed projects. This has the unintended consequence of turning people into libertarians and making them battle tested veteran political activists.


    With a little ass kissing, anything goes, especially if it is ag related. With my involvement with the county in the last few years, it is likely that I make them a little bit nervous and they will be unwilling to look like pricks since I have a pretty good support group right now.

    I believe the rural population density is around 13 people per square mile. Several years ago, the county planner (he needs to go in the worst way) decided that the county is "full" and put a moratorium on new homes in sections with 4 or more homes in it. All this accomplished was to create a climate where our jackass commissioners could grant political favors to their constituents for votes as the crap economy curtailed housing development more than any weak-ass ordinance did. There is a loophole in the ordinance where second dwellings on a farm for farm or family use is permitted, and temporary housing is completely unregulated up to 4 "campsites".
    The government structure has to be incredibly sensitive since most of the farms have been in the same families since before the county government was established. Makes for some interesting political theater.


    The learning curve is pretty steep, but you don't get bored. The Gestalt principle applies here as two people working together can accomplish far more than twice as much as either one working alone.
    Please consider that your location comment probably shows why the current condition exists. It is certainly a good opportunity for those seeking to "escape" city environments, but as a freedom oriented community - you would need a state that is conductive (FWIW, I do not put MN in that category, but it could be worse), contiguous land area, some of which would end up as residential, and commercial - preserving family farms precludes alternate uses for some of the land area for community functions.

    For example, land taxes in TX for ag land can easily go below $5 per acre per year. Would you work on land that you did not own?
    Last edited by Pericles; 04-23-2012 at 01:16 PM.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  17. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    This is indeed an extraordinary opportunity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    It is certainly a good opportunity for those seeking to "escape"...
    ESCAPE = URGENT OPPORTUNITY



    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Would you work on land that you did not own?
    Given certain alternatives, wouldn't YOU? If an Official Decider backed by power of Force sez: WORK IN THOSE FIELDS or ROT IN THAT CELL, hey, which end of the hoe HOES...and HOW? I'm ON it.

    Is paying rent to a Landlord (very probably while laboring for someone else's company), any different or better? ONLY if one love's one's work, I think.

    But NO TAKERS, apparently. Which strikes me as downright PERVERSE, considering how often I "hear" people wail about wanting/needing ESCAPE.

    I can't even barter an ALL EXPENSES PAID stretch in California for a functional, integrated website. Actually, as a TEXAN, you are probably not surprised.
    Last edited by cheapseats; 04-24-2012 at 08:53 AM.

  18. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    There is currently hundreds of acres of organic land in Goodhue County Minnesota that is owned by older farmers. These farmers are more interested in keeping the land under sustainable management and eventually going to someone who would appreciate it rather than selling it off for whatever.
    The infrastructure is already in place and even the county land management staff wants something like this to happen, but we need people. Real people. Not lazy dreamers, but people who are actually interested in working to take care of themselves.

    This is for real. We have had several farmer meetings already, and the farmers are somewhat desperate to get people working their land.
    I have one camper trailer here already as temp housing for anyone that is serious about this. Ideally, it would be someone who already has a business plan but just needs an opportunity. Being direct market farmers already, we have a marketing chain already in place for virtually anything anyone could produce here. The idea is to have a community that is basically self reliant so that most of the community's needs can be taken care of internally. If it is done right everyone could accomplish a $100,000 lifestyle for $20,000 a year.
    Didn't mean to throw a wet blanket on your daydreaming with an actual opportunity.

    I dunno if you posted this more to expose daydreaming (and boasting) with an actual opportunity, or if you are actually trying to fill positions.

    If the latter...this is intuition absent experience, with NO wish to offend...but I can imagine that this might suit a returning Combat Veteran or three.

  19. #48

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    I am not sure if this was brought up in this thread but Grafton, NH has gone through many of the growing pains of becoming a "free town".

    When the free town project began, many towns were looked at for many factors relating to freedom. In the end, Grafton was found to be a prime location. When it was chosen a few individuals started making a big fuss about how we were all going to descend upon Grafton and get rid of all government and allow an anything goes society. The guy owned a Philipino mail order bride type of business and rubbed people the wrong way. Needless to say, the people of Grafton got wind of this blowhard and gathered with many members of the free town project in a town hall meeting where they cursed them out and tried the equivalent of pitch forks and torches to tell them that they were not welcome.

    But as time went on and cooler heads prevailed, they learned that those moving in wanted the same freedom that they wanted. Many libertarians were elected to key positions and it is a growing island of freedom.
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.

  20. #49
    Member Keith and stuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwar View Post
    But as time went on and cooler heads prevailed, they learned that those moving in wanted the same freedom that they wanted. Many libertarians were elected to key positions and it is a growing island of freedom.
    That's a good point. Grafton is likely 10 years ahead of anywhere else when it comes to this or perhaps 1,000 as most of these such projects have a history of going nowhere. The Grafton folks travel to other parts of NH (heck, there live closer to the NH Legislative Office Building than I do) and talk about what is going on there. It seems with 2 additional voters, they would win even more issue votes. With 7 or 8 additional voters, they would win a lot more issue votes. With a few dozen, they would win most office elections and political voters.

    They already have a few dozen people there. I was also told that voter turnout is very high in Grafton for some elections. All of the locals know about the liberty people in Grafton. Some of the liberty people are very popular and some are just popular. However, my point is, if new additional liberty lovers moved to Grafton, there wouldn't be a lot of locals coming out of the woodwork to vote against liberty in elections. Those type of people are already voting in the elections.

    People trying local liberty movements should certainly look to Grafton as the model as it is is probably 10 times or even more effective than any of the other local liberty projects happening right now/recently (such as the 2 in Texas and the county in WY.) Of course, you don't have to move to Grafton. It certainly makes sense to at least travel to Grafton and ask the people how they became so successful at their goals compared to everyone else. Maybe ask them if God is helping them, or perhaps aliens or is it magical powers? A good time to ask them would be at Burning Porcupine, a yearly event in Grafton. http://burningporcupine.org/
    Last edited by Keith and stuff; 04-25-2012 at 11:41 AM.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    It seems with 2 additional voters, they would win even more issue votes. With 7 or 8 additional voters, they would win a lot more issue votes. With a few dozen, they would win most office elections and political voters.
    Interesting.

    I recall running a lot of spreadsheets of votes in NH vs candidates that tended toward liberty vs statists and saw that the amount of difference in votes between having all liberty candidates win was just under 10,000 people statewide. 5,000 for a majority in the state house & senate.

    I ran a lot of stats for the Free Town Project to help in the decision. The only few others that were close were a few with about a dozen people living there which would have been easy to take over. But there were reasons only a few people lived there.

    Before Ron Paul forums, my source for liberty discussion was the Free State Project forum.
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.

  22. #51
    Member helmuth_hubener's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    People trying local liberty movements should certainly look to Grafton as the model as it is is probably 10 times or even more effective than any of the other local liberty projects happening right now/recently (such as the 2 in Texas and the county in WY.)
    I agree. Everyone should agree. Grafton should be a top contender for a geographical concentration strategy.

    With a few dozen, they would win most office elections and political voters.
    As far as 2 votes making a difference, and 36 enabling most elections to be victories for liberty, I don't know. Grafton is a township of about 1,340 (in a county of 89,118). I suppose it depends how ambitious one's liberty goals are. Mine are pretty ambitious.
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  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    I agree. Everyone should agree. Grafton should be a top contender for a geographical concentration strategy.



    As far as 2 votes making a difference, and 36 enabling most elections to be victories for liberty, I don't know. Grafton is a township of about 1,340 (in a county of 89,118). I suppose it depends how ambitious one's liberty goals are. Mine are pretty ambitious.
    My thinking is that one can target the town, county, or state level. My opinion is that going for the highest level you can control is the best option. I went for the county level for this reason. I have a target that I think I can hit. A town is better than no success at all, but depending on the state, a great deal of political power may be at the county level.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  24. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    My thinking is that one can target the town, county, or state level. My opinion is that going for the highest level you can control is the best option. I went for the county level for this reason. I have a target that I think I can hit. A town is better than no success at all, but depending on the state, a great deal of political power may be at the county level.

    This "works" if you fight to establish it AND fight to preserve it, and I have every confidence that YOU/YOURS can do both.

    But it remains emotionally convenient for me to believe that X percent of the Three Percent GET that this is a ridiculously unfair fight, and MORE SO for the often cited/celebrated/exploited/abused/blamed WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

    NOT to say that developments such as yours ought NOT develop, on the contrary. The more the merrier, as soon as possible.

    Other MODELS must be also be developed, or the idea of what boils down to TAKING A HIT in order to work our way honorably back to Moral Authority in a craaaazy world will NOT appeal to the Usual Softies.

    An OUTHOUSE . . . since the SEVENTIES . . . waiting for the very calamity y'all are talking about? That's not gonna work for me. I realize yours in not slated to be rough-hewn, but the problem remains: EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF bodes ill for lotsa not-men AND not-manly. NOTHING radical (Establishment-bucking) becomes normalized until the Home Depot people are "easy" about it (or clamoring for it).

    Separately, I realize that much as I resent it, barring all-out revolution, the Transformation occurs in what tolerant people call Baby Steps. But if the steps are too small and too few, your Sheriff and right on up thru your Official County Friendlies cannot prevail against the infamous Feds...I'm talking about if push would come to shove.

    I mention it (because Western Civilization is collapsing before my eyes and) because, if any of this were funny, it would have been laughable to hear career-politician Chuck Schumer pontificate on the NECESSITY of States being "supervised" by Feds.

    It is not MY immediate problem, tho it certainly affects me big-picture, but I get a sense that many plans afoot have a lengthy implementation that assumes there are no moving parts.

    I already gave up flying. WHAT NEXT, trains and roads...in order to NOT BE AFRAID...in my own country...with cause, for no reason?

    They CLEARLY pick on the Less Burly more than they pick on the Burly. It is REALLY getting rugged out here for Solo Gurlz (including for attached wives/daughters/sisters when they roll alone). When I started this-whatever-this-is, I really really liked driving in the middle of the night. How many things do I really really like anymore? Really really few.

    STRIP SEARCHES ON ANY ARREST, on (any manufactured) "probable" cause? Maybe I WON'T do that...not because it is illegal, but because it EXPOSES me to greater personal risk...for no good reason, to boot. Maybe I won't go THERE, THEN.

    They hide in the friggin' bushes, for cryin' out loud. It cannot have escaped notice that HER WORD AGAINST HIS is already a hot potato. HER WORD AGAINST THE COP'S WORD? Yeah, that'll be tied up for who-knows-how-long while the girl is in jail and the guy is on PAID ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE.

    People talk about TIGHTENING THE NOOSE more than they talk about RESTRICTED MOBILITY. Restricted Mobility is a feature of Feudal Economics...and Dark Ages. Nip those overthrow plots in the bud. Restricted Mobility is like PHYSICAL Censorship.

    What are American Men gonna DO about that, if anything? It does AMERICANS no good if The Few, The Proud, The Prepared only protect their OWN. Critical Mass will NEVER embrace ruggeder terms, in that case. Y'all would always WIN. Greater FORCE. The self-contratulatory notion that all "Patriots" or even all Board Members are Good Guys is indeed flattering, alas, utterly absurd.

    We The (Weakling) People will in that case prefer to LESSEN the force of (overgeneralization) YOU GUYS.

    CUT TO: Trayvon Martin

    CUT TO: Awareness and re-visiting the prudence of STAND YOUR GROUND laws that most Softies were not even aware had been passed.

    CUT TO: As ever, broader gun grabbing . . . at home, not abroad . . . where we sell arms to all "parties".

    I FOUND a place. "I'm good" would be a big, fat lie. But I'm good, CONSIDERING. I'm good, COMPARATIVELY. You might think that Weaker Links who are worse off than me would be MORE eager to embrace the kind of thing we have discussed. But that is NOT my experience.

    They are MORE fearful. They are LESS able to conceptualize CUTTING LOOSE...and CREATING something beyond and better than the low-grade crappiness to which they are accustomed. Like coaxing a kid to JUMP IN...youcandoit, Imrighthere, Iwontletyoudrown, JUMP! In fairness, we cannot make the same assurances that the parent in the pool can make to the kid trembling on the side of the pool.

    If you would impart to me one especially helpful bit of WORK FLOW advice, IS there one nugget that you would pass on before all others?
    Last edited by cheapseats; 04-27-2012 at 01:00 PM.

  25. #54
    Member Keith and stuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    My thinking is that one can target the town, county, or state level. My opinion is that going for the highest level you can control is the best option. I went for the county level for this reason. I have a target that I think I can hit. A town is better than no success at all, but depending on the state, a great deal of political power may be at the county level.
    Just keep in mind that ultimately, all town, county and state power is in the hands of the state. The state government created or allowed the counties and towns to be created. It is able to take local power or even abolish towns and counties. So if you want freedom in a community, it is a good idea to try to get as many pro-liberty people as possible into positions in the state government where the community is located, as an insurance policy.

    In New England, counties do very little and many things which are typically down by county governments in much of the county, like schools, fire departments and law enforcement, are a more local, town oriented function.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  26. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    If you would impart to me one especially helpful bit of WORK FLOW advice, IS there one nugget that you would pass on before all others?
    One has to have a realistic picture of what one can accomplish. Choosing a too ambitious initial objective that causes a failure discourages the group. Build on a series of successes.

    If you can take another thing I have learned - people respond to leadership. During the Texas Revolution, there was a many day discussion as to whether the town of San Antonio (then the seat of the Mexican province of Coahila y Texas) should be attacked and taken. Finally, one guy gets up from the table, starts to leave, and asks: "Who is coming with old Ben Milam to San Antonio?" Knowing when to talk, and when to take action is something that can't be taught (although the Army thinks otherwise).
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  27. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    Just keep in mind that ultimately, all town, county and state power is in the hands of the state. The state government created or allowed the counties and towns to be created. It is able to take local power or even abolish towns and counties. So if you want freedom in a community, it is a good idea to try to get as many pro-liberty people as possible into positions in the state government where the community is located, as an insurance policy.

    In New England, counties do very little and many things which are typically down by county governments in much of the county, like schools, fire departments and law enforcement, are a more local, town oriented function.
    Very different west of the Mississippi river. In Texas, the state legislature meets for 4 months every two years. The power is at the county and state board level.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  28. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    One has to have a realistic picture of what one can accomplish. Choosing a too ambitious initial objective that causes a failure discourages the group. Build on a series of successes.
    Silly Rabbit, I already knew that (GOP nomination? Nope.) AND you already gave that one to Discerning Readers: "I have a target that I think I can hit."




    If you can take another thing I have learned - people respond to leadership.

    I know it. I tell Communists and Crystal Suckers and the Kum-Bay-Ah folks: LEADERS MANIFEST...good, bad or indifferent. But a surprisingly large number of Americans believe staunchly in HAPPY ENDINGS, including a kinda touching but moreso infuriating trust that EVERYTHING WILL "JUST" WORK OUT. Look Ma, no hands!

    Have you advice that is pertinent specifically to organization of what boils down to TOO MUCH INFORMATION? Hard copy.

    I was not the only Angeleno who thought O.J. Simpson got off partially because of celebrity & racial bias...and partly because Marcia Clark BORED THE JURY TO DEATH by droning on and on about the SMALL PRINT OF DNA.
    Last edited by cheapseats; 04-30-2012 at 06:20 PM.

  29. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheapseats View Post
    Have you one that is pertinent specifically to organization of what boils down to TOO MUCH INFORMATION? Hard copy.
    Don't take my advice, because if you do, you might turn out like I did.

    The self effacing humor usually gets people to listen to you at that point.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  30. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Don't take my advice, because if you do, you might turn out like I did.
    What's that I hear . . . self-effacement?

    Not a chance of that happening + Not the worst that could happen = NO HARM NO FOUL. You got somethin' wise but not proprietary, I'M ALL EARS.

    I keep quoting Eddie Izzard, with whom I would not expect a Texan to be familiar, "I'm willing to learn."

    Lao Tzu: "If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading."



    The self effacing humor usually gets people to listen to you at that point.

    'Tis method is occasionally and thankfully mightier than the sword. Failing that...having tried true but failed, alas...'tis even oftener the guiltless path to riches that must satisfy in the stead of elusive Liberty & Justice.

    Laugh or cry, laugh or cry . . .

    Eddie Izzard, again: "Cake or DEATH?!"
    Last edited by cheapseats; 04-27-2012 at 06:19 PM.

  31. #60

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    Sorry if this has already been mentioned (no time right now to read the whole thread), but it seems CRUCIAL that a free community be located in extremely harsh terrain. I'm talking about dense, non-deciduous forests. Maine and New Hampshire are the most heavily-forested states in the US, so these would be ideal states to have such communities in.

    Why? Because that sort of terrain is extremely difficult to spy on with satellites, drones, etc. It's inaccessible to vehicles except by a few routes that could be closed off if necessary. Large rocks and caves, if available, can provide cover from most bombardment. Any hidden surveillance cameras will not be able to see very far in a forest. If it becomes necessary to mount a last-ditch defense of the territory, all these characteristics will be invaluable.
    Last edited by GuerrillaXXI; 05-19-2012 at 01:10 PM.
    "Man lives freely only by his readiness to die." -- Mohandas K. Gandhi

    "Generally speaking, the way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death." -- Miyamoto Musashi

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