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Thread: Can alternative energy survive in a free market?

  1. #31

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    Yes.

    In fact, that's the only time it does.

    Look on youtube for "alcohol as a gas" video series (37 parts)



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  3. #32

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    YES IT CAN.

    In Bosnia and Herzegovinia we got solar panels. They repay them selfs in 2-3 years and they NEVER broke (get faulty). On farms people start to produce boigas from waste of farm products and rest is used as fertilizer.

    As gas and oil prices go up more and more people will use alternative sources of energy... Why? They will not have any choice. Only reason most people dont use it now is because they dont know.
    So you gave up on this:
    H
    elp with documenting voting rights violations and election fraud abuses!?
    Shame. Nothing encourages crime than not punishing it. You are letting them get away with it.FAIL.


    Quote Originally Posted by orenbus View Post
    If I had to answer this question truthfully I'd probably piss a lot of people off lol, Barrex would be a better person to ask he doesn't seem to care lol.


  4. #33

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    I think a better question is what kind of energy can survive in a free market, because oil isn't unsubsidized either.

    There are massive price externalities in a petroleum economy, like staging the US 5th fleet in the Strait of Hormuz, that aren't paid by the gallon, but probably should..

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrex View Post
    YES IT CAN.

    In Bosnia and Herzegovinia we got solar panels. They repay them selfs in 2-3 years and they NEVER broke (get faulty). On farms people start to produce boigas from waste of farm products and rest is used as fertilizer.

    As gas and oil prices go up more and more people will use alternative sources of energy... Why? They will not have any choice. Only reason most people dont use it now is because they dont know.
    Photovoltaic panels are a good option to supplement energy production at a remote site. However, they rarely provide a return on investment unless the solar insolation is extremely high and/or the only other source of electricity is extremely expensive. In other words, photovoltaics are a very bad idea for the vast majority of people. If you're getting pay back in 2-3 years, then the panels are either heavily subsidized or you poor guys are getting raped by the local utility.
    Last edited by buenijo; 03-13-2012 at 10:41 AM.
    “The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name.” ― Confucius.

    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." Frederic Bastiat

  6. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Bickerstaff View Post
    Because of government intervention, we are 100 years behind. The problem with "alternative" energy right now is that government incentives are trying to shoehorn intermittant and dispersed generation into an instant access system. Before REA forced a regulated grid on rural america, there was an affordable, off-grid tech boom. As soon as cheap subsidized energy was available, virtually all off-grid innovation stopped.

    The central generation, instant access system that we have now is a product of government interference and would never have even developed in a free market. Instead, a dispersed generation, efficient, and generally cleaner system would have developed with smaller regional and micro utilities and many, many off-grid homes. Once in awhile, you can find an old-timer packrat that collects antique "alternative" energy equipment, but other than that, the history has pretty much been erased.
    Absolute truth. I live in the mountains where micro hydro powerplants were everywhere 90 years ago. There were many many small hydro manufacturers in the US. FDR's rural electrification killed the the entire industry. Sure rural people got cheaper power for a while with the subsidised grid but it destroyed the advancement of localized energy production.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by buenijo View Post
    Photovoltaic panels are a good option to supplement energy production at a remote site. However, they rarely provide a return on investment unless the solar insolation is extremely high and/or the only other source of electricity is extremely expensive. In other words, photovoltaics are a very bad idea for the vast majority of people. If you're getting pay back in 2-3 years, then the panels are either heavily subsidized or you're getting raped by the local utility.
    Read where he is at. The grid system is very old in these countries and I am sure the cost of grid power is very high.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by buenijo View Post
    Photovoltaic panels are a good option to supplement energy production at a remote site. However, they rarely provide a return on investment unless the solar insolation is extremely high and/or the only other source of electricity is extremely expensive. In other words, photovoltaics are a very bad idea for the vast majority of people. If you're getting pay back in 2-3 years, then the panels are either heavily subsidized or you poor guys are getting raped by the local utility.
    I am from Croatia/BiH. Those panels were not subsidized. In BiH there is a small company that sells solar panels at factory value and only charges installation (2 workers work for 6 hours or 2-3 days). In Croatia/BiH power companies are buying electricity from anyone who offers them. No matter how small amounts.

    Question was:Can alternative energy survive in a free market?

    Answer:In BiH they do. In Croatia yes but some are subsidized...They are not used in 100% of households but they are "surviving".

    It is also important to notice that in my country people dont build houses made of wood. My is made of Autoclaved Aerated Concrete (ytong blocks.. and yes I had to google this fancy term). Maximize use of "Passive Solar Energy Systems" and "Active Solar Energy Systems". My father also has a farm where we converted watermill in mini hydroplant.

    Problem is that vast mayority of people has no idea of oportunities that they have at their disposal and are slaves to their enviroment (no one else is doing it so I am not even thinking to do it my self).
    Last edited by Barrex; 03-15-2012 at 10:11 AM.
    So you gave up on this:
    H
    elp with documenting voting rights violations and election fraud abuses!?
    Shame. Nothing encourages crime than not punishing it. You are letting them get away with it.FAIL.


    Quote Originally Posted by orenbus View Post
    If I had to answer this question truthfully I'd probably piss a lot of people off lol, Barrex would be a better person to ask he doesn't seem to care lol.


  9. #38

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    Loaded question.
    You have to assume some things to answer, which is fine, except people on the internet like to nitpick.
    Petroleum/Oil was once an alternative energy in a relatively "free" market, and thrived. The Gov eventually stepped in(netting Rockefeller 900 billion) but all things aren't equal to compare, so here we are sitting theorizing.

    All things being equal(impossible) yes. The "but..but..but" crowd always forgets the "all things being equal" part.

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    1) Can alternative energy survive in a free market?

    2) If so, how?
    Read the book, "Changing Oil into Salt" this is something every single American should do first to rid ignorance of the issue.
    The issue with Oil we use is our Road Vehicles - Cars and Trucks. Most home and industrial heating uses coal or natural gas not oil. So the problem is foreign oil imports and the fact that we giving huge money to Islamists who hate us. The Moslems are commanded in their Koran to 1. convert us 2. if we do not acccept kill us. A good Muslim will follow this law as commanded. This is a problem. People say Christians have caused problems but the teachings of Jesus Christ says love your neighbor as yourself and love your enemy. So only those who violate teachings of Jesus Christ and are anti-Christian do those terrible things.

    So what about alternatives. Coal can be gasified and the best conversion is natural gas not gasoline. Our cars and trucks can be convered to run on CNG compressed natural gas and simply converting coal into natural gas would eliminate the need for foreign oil. It also provides an immediate competitor. If our government announced a 5 year program serious about this gas would fall quickly. But that is not all. Our cars can easily be converted to ethanol and methanol. The cost is only about $150 a car. Corn ethanol our government pours millions into is a bad thing because it costs way too much and gets into our food scource. But methanol and ethanol can be made from sugar cane as the Brazillians are doing which is very low cost and from seaweed and junk plants. Brazil is far less an enemy than Saudi or Iran yet because of the governement protection on corn ethanol we tax their Sugar Cane ethanol so much they cannot export it to us. This is Congress doing this folks. You vote for them. Yet, if gasoline had a competitor and our cars could run on gasoling, ethanol, methanol using the multi-fuel standard for cars, you and I as a consumer could choose which one. This is the idea of turning Oil into Salt where salt at one time was an exclusive commodity but now is not. Gasoline should be that way. And we can easily do that. If I were running for Congress or President, I would announce a plan for immediate multi-fuel standard on new cars (adds 100 to 150 for each car but allows every car to run on other fuels I mentioned. I would announce my plan to get completely off foreign oil in 5 years. I would immediately stop the corn ethanol subsidies which are a joke and I would take the import tax off the Brazilian Sugar methanol. In fact Brazil and us would become best trading buddies. The other place we can replace oil is with Algae grown on farms. Stands of Algae have 70% content of pure oil for biodiesel. A British professor has a breakthrough discovery to dry and harvest the Algae. Every farm in this country could be growing Algae with a cost of $20,000 capital, 50 cents a gallon total cost of biodiesel, and 20,000 gallons of biodiesel. This can be done easily because to grow the Algae you need 1. A cooling tank with water, fiber optic cables going through the tank for light, some C02 carbon dioxide (easy to do) and some nutrients. Again the yields are enormous. This would create an entire new industry for our farms. My brother in law consumes 50,000 gallons of diesel a year a $4 a gallon now. He could grow his own for 50 cents a gallon and sell another 50,000 gallons to diesel trucks and pay for all of it in the first year with his saving. The key to this is for the government to get the Algae harvesting technology I mentioned out to the farmers. It is now privately owned. The Algae biodiesel burns much cleaner than oil based.

    I know this is a long post but I have given the OIL energy solution to anyone smart to investigate. Read the and check it out. Vote for me for Congress (but if I run they will key me for saying all of this and I really mean that). There are evil forces controllings this. But let no one say there is no solution. That is simply wrong.

  11. #40

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    I have been reading a lot about increased technology in solar panels. I have read about people making their houses run totally by using solar panels. As the price of these solar panels come down more people could get them. Some solar panel homes actually generate enough energy that the power company ends up sending the home owner a check for the extra energy they made.

    I think the future could be cars like Volt. Volt is just the first step. Think if more years of perfecting it went into it. Later we could go to full electrics like the Leaf. Sooner or later technology gets cheaper and improves. The batteries are the current thing that needs the most development.

    These electric cars in the long run could be a great solution. The question is will the government kill these cars off by letting the oil companies destroy the market for them. Meaning if gas prices stay too low then these would not be feasible. The cost for the cars need to go down to. Should these cars be subsidized to help the American car manufactures get ahead of the foreign manufactures? You know China subsidizes their industry and that is part of the reason companies are moving there.

    The great thing about the electric cars is they have less components compared to a gas powered car. Also, you can come up with what ever method of producing the electricity. This means if you improve the power production for the towns power plant you improve it for every car that is charged at home from that source.

    Currently I like the gas powered engines, but down the road these electrics could be great cars. They get a lot of low end torque with those electric motors. Down side currently is the life of the batteries and the cost to replace them. These are things that could change with time and improvements in technology.

    Once these cars start selling in higher volumes it would be easier to mass produce them and lower costs. New technology is always more expensive. Currently they need to get people to accept the idea of trying out these new type of technology vehicles. The economics need to work. They may need to subsidize these tell they become more popular and volumes increase. Or gas prices get high enough to warrent the extra money spent on the cars.

    I don't think Brazil can produce enough Sugar Cane for ethanol for the USA and Brazil. Not sure if we have anywhere we could grow our own Sugar Cane in the USA. Scientists are working on creating an enzyme to break down switch grass to ethanol. If that works our troubles are solved we would not need to use corn no more. The price of corn would go down so people could eat.

    CNG compressed natural gas could be a good idea but currently we don't have the infastructure to do this on a large scale and complete switch everyone over. By the way my dad has a work van he has converted to run on propane. I read an article about a converting coal to gas a while back. Interesting. We have a major source of coal in Wyoming where I grew up. It would help out those states with coal. So that could maybe be a good idea. I know in World War II the Germans converted coal to gasoline.
    Last edited by rockerrockstar; 03-15-2012 at 10:55 PM.

  12. #41
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  13. #42

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    i guess its time to kick this dead horse again.

    http://321energy.com/editorials/engd...ahl031712.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-...b_1346035.html

    i know many will not agree , saying this is a free market , but at least read these links this weekend .
    Last edited by ILUVRP; 03-16-2012 at 05:17 PM.

  14. #43

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    I heat my home on wood, it costs me about 1/3 of what my neighbors, that heat with propane, pay.

    The guy across the street runs his dodge 2500 back and forth to work every day on waste veggie oil; he's paying under a buck a gallon; filters it in his garage and runs it without removing the glycerin... been doing it for 5 years... he mixes w/ diesel in the winter months. His cummins smells like french fries!

    A friend of mine is distributing Heatilator pellet stoves, he also resells hardwood pellets by the pallet ton. He says its a good supplemental income for him. The year he started... he bought and installed his own stove and enough pellets for the year for less than the cost of heating with natural gas for a winter.

    I have another friend that is a corn and hay farmer. He burns his corn stalks and moldy hay to heat his home in a modified biomass gasification boiler.

    I'm looking at running a waste oil burner to reprocess the "waste of the waste" from my neighbors veggie oil truck. I'm going to use it for supplemental heat and hot water.

    I also have built and installed 5 passive solar hot water systems on the cheap for friends/customers; good side work.

    -----------------

    The future of the alternative energy market is in small scale personal energy sources; and it certainly is and will continue to thrive.

    presence
    Last edited by presence; 03-16-2012 at 06:18 PM.
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  15. #44

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    great post , i had a good friend in Mn that had a corn burning stove , he saved a lot of money , that was when corn was about $2.25/bu , now corn is about $6.65/bu , i don't know if its a push or not.

    before i joined the military in the 50's i worked on farms , the farmers used nat gas on their cars/trucks/tractors/combines ,worked great.

  16. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by ILUVRP View Post
    great post , i had a good friend in Mn that had a corn burning stove , he saved a lot of money , that was when corn was about $2.25/bu , now corn is about $6.65/bu , i don't know if its a push or not.

    before i joined the military in the 50's i worked on farms , the farmers used nat gas on their cars/trucks/tractors/combines ,worked great.
    Did he? Corn is one of the worst nitrogen depleting crops out there. How much money did he spend on fertilizer on his fields after that?
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  17. #46

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    thats why farmers switch crops every year , corn to soybeans , then back to corn the next year. every now and then put in winter wheat.

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