The Single Tax - Land Value Tax (LVT)

[MattintheCrown]

What is property?

Property is, initially, established by claiming things that no one else has already claimed.

This is false. Property is established by producing things, not by claiming them.

No one was claiming it before, so you're not violating anyone's rights, you're not aggressing against anyone, by appropriating for yourself.

What's to stop them from using it, but your force?

There are limits to how much you can claim, the whole "mixing your labor" in thing helps to solidify your claim, also marking the borders if the matter is fairly immobile, or moving the matter into a place you already possess if it's transportable.

If you actually remove something from nature, you've created a product, and established a property right. By removing it, you have removed the opportunity others have to use it. Locations cannot be removed from nature. There's no way to make a location into a product. Any claim to a location is nothing more than a demand others not use it, with no just basis.

[helmuth_hubener]

Property is established by producing things, not by claiming them.

How does one produce a thing?

[MattintheCrown]

How does one produce a thing?

By using his labor to create something that didn't previously exist.

[helmuth_hubener]

By using his labor to create something that didn't previously exist.

Amazing. Have you ever done this? Do you know anyone who has?

[MattintheCrown]

Amazing. Have you ever done this? Do you know anyone who has?

Yes, and yes. I dare say nearly everyone has.

[mczerone]

Amazing. Have you ever done this? Do you know anyone who has?

I'll grant an absolute property right to anyone for anything they create in violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics!

[MattintheCrown]

I'll grant an absolute property right to anyone for anything they create in violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics!

Of course, it would just be idiotic to claim that, because matter/energy cannot be created, things can't be created. The monitor you're looking at now was brought into existence through labor.

[mczerone]

Yes, and yes. I dare say nearly everyone has.

You're missing the point: you don't create anything.

You claim natural products and transform them. you remix them.

[MattintheCrown]

You're missing the point: you don't create anything.

You claim natural products and transform them. you remix them.

Nope. I create products using natural materials.

[mczerone]

Of course, it would just be idiotic to claim that, because matter/energy cannot be created, things can't be created. The monitor you're looking at now was brought into existence through labor.

And the natural products were someone's property before they were remixed into a monitor. Someone owned the natural products because they had controlled the land they came from.

Controlling a plot of land via fences, social agreements, or continuous use is just as much a "creation" of a new thing (owned land) as the shaping of silicon and metal into a motherboard "creates" something.