Time to start playing the fraud card?

[TheGrinch]

There was another thread yesterday I'm trying to hunt down where someone started compiling a list, and will bump and link here when I find it. My goal is to compile a long list of all of the shenanigans, for a couple reasons:

1) If the GOP is going to go to these lengths to skirt around their own rules, then this may be perhaps our best chance to have it known by the convention just how much they're fudging the process, to either force a fair process there or at least gain more public support.

2) The only way Dr. Paul could still run on a third-party ticket is if it's known to the masses just how badly he and us supporters been treated by the GOP. If that is not shown, then a 3rd party run would be destined to fail even more, with clear animosity about us standing in the way of "beating Obama" (will be the perception). A few sore loser laws would be nothing compared to the public and establishment's sore-loser backlash.

Moreover, regardless of what it means for our chances, we're now reaching the threshold to where such a great amount of circumstantial evidence is better than 1 small bit of hard evidence for public opinion. Though we cannot go pushing all of this without first being organized with the proper presentation of our case, but we cannot simply continue to sit here and wait on hard evidence before letting the public know what's being done by the establishment to maintain the control of the GOP, by going as far as disenfranchising anyone who stands in their way.

So at the risk of being called kooks, we really have no choice but to try, not only for Dr. Paul's chances, but because this the basis of what we're fighting for: a fair system that favor's the country's best interests, not the establishment's interest, where this is just the latest example of how they'll defraud others to keep their gravy train going. That cannot stand, or else democracy is truly dead in this country.

[rich34]

I'd start with Maine I think that was pretty obvious.

[sailingaway]

Where we can document it I would call it 'irregularities' and certainly we want to point out documentable irregularities. Fraud on the other hand is like 'conspiracy', the word in itself rebuffs people. If we show clear irregularities, likely someone ELSE will call it fraud...

[TheGrinch]

Where we can document it I would call it 'irregularities' and certainly we want to point out documentable irregularities. Fraud on the other hand is like 'conspiracy', the word in itself rebuffs people. If we show clear irregularities, likely someone ELSE will call it fraud...

Very good point, and thus was why I was saying that we need to be organized about this, so we don't just end up being called "conspiracy theorists" or sore losers, when there clearly are "irregularities" going on.... I agree that it's much better to present the evidence and let the audience form their own conclusions, of which it's pretty tough to coem to any other conclusion. You can only excuse so much, before it becomes inexcusible.

[wgadget]

"The truth will win." ---Carol Paul

Let's hope she's right.

[kahless]

I know it will probably never happen but it would be great around the time of the convention if "60 minutes" does an expose on everything the party has done to prevent Ron Paul for winning, showing things like what happened in Maine.

[Muttley]

Anyone notice how the pundits keep referring to "3" people in the race now? Sickening mad over here.

[InTradePro]

I know it will probably never happen but it would be great around the time of the convention if "60 minutes" does an expose on everything the party has done to prevent Ron Paul for winning, showing things like what happened in Maine.

Things don't happen unless we make it happen.

'Voter deception' is better wording then 'voter fraud' or 'voter irregularities' because 'Voter deception' is more inclusive (case in point, media misreporting is deception but not fraud or irregular'), plus voter deception sounds more personal.

[InTradePro]

Anyone notice how the pundits keep referring to "3" people in the race now? Sickening mad over here.

Evidence please.

That's 'voter deception'.

[RDM]

Evidence please.

That's 'voter deception'.

They're not coming out and saying explicitly there are only three candidates. It's just now the coverage is only on Romney, Santorum and Gingrich and no mention of Paul.

[jbauer]

Are you kidding? If you build it they will come. MSM would eat that alive if you had enough meat to it. Esspecially if it meant that the GOP wouldn't win the white house

I know it will probably never happen but it would be great around the time of the convention if "60 minutes" does an expose on everything the party has done to prevent Ron Paul for winning, showing things like what happened in Maine.

[sailingaway]

Things don't happen unless we make it happen.

'Voter deception' is better wording then 'voter fraud' or 'voter irregularities' because 'Voter deception' is more inclusive (case in point, media misreporting is deception but not fraud or irregular'), plus voter deception sounds more personal.

but deception like fraud requires intent which we are imputing to the actions. I say it is better to note the irregularities and let any sensible person with half a brain draw their own conclusions.

[InTradePro]

They're not coming out and saying explicitly there are only three candidates. It's just now the coverage is only on Romney, Santorum and Gingrich and no mention of Paul.

You either speak truth to power or be part of the problem. Dr Paul has done the former, do you follow his example?

[InTradePro]

but deception like fraud requires intent which we are imputing to the actions. I say it is better to note the irregularities and let any sensible person with half a brain draw their own conclusions.

I take your point but my understanding is deception doesn't require intent. The receiver can be deceived by themself. Example:I deceived myself, while walking to the subway I thought I saw a lady but when I got closer I realised it was a man wearing a kilt.

[TheGrinch]

They're not coming out and saying explicitly there are only three candidates. It's just now the coverage is only on Romney, Santorum and Gingrich and no mention of Paul.

Thus is why we're forced to just refer to things like that as "media bias"... "Voter deception" is like libel or slander, in that it hinges on malicious "intent", which is almost always impossible to prove.

But yes, I like where we're going with this, and I think it'd be just fine to add the most egregious incidents of media bias to go along with the many "voter irregularities".

The difficult part here is going to be organizing and presenting it in an effective and efficient manner, but I guess my first step is going to be finding that other thread, and bumping it to hopefully compile the bulk of clear incidents.

[TheGrinch]

I take your point but to my understanding is deception doesn't require intent. The receiver can be deceived by themself. Example:I deceived myself, while walking to the subway I thought I saw a lady but when I got closer I realised it was a man wearing a kilt.

Decieved (or more mispercieved, as per your definiton) is different than deception. If you just mispercieved something, I have no idea why we'd want to compare that to deception, that clearly requires a deciever, or else it's a pointless and counterproductive term to use. Just leave it to media bias, and let's not get tied up in semantics though.

[sailingaway]

I take your point but my understanding is deception doesn't require intent. The receiver can be deceived by themself. Example:I deceived myself, while walking to the subway I thought I saw a lady but when I got closer I realised it was a man wearing a kilt.

You are right, but even self deception usually requires subconscious desire. In this context I would use more neutral sounding words, personally. Let the facts outrage, not the language.

[TheGrinch]

My negative rep from the great KingNothing:

"Only if you want the movement to appear like a silly, illogical collection of tinfoil hatters"

Sorry bro, your insults aren't going to stop us from fighting for what we know is right. You don't have to buy what we're selling, but you can't just marginalize all the folks who will recognize that there are clear "irregularities" going on.

[kathy88]

My negative rep from the great KingNothing:

"Only if you want the movement to appear like a silly, illogical collection of tinfoil hatters"

Sorry bro, your insults aren't going to stop us from fighting for what we know is right. You don't have to buy what we're selling, but you can't just marginalize all the folks who will recognize that there are clear "irregularities" going on.

Yeah he likes to neg rep.

[KingNothing]

My negative rep from the great KingNothing:

"Only if you want the movement to appear like a silly, illogical collection of tinfoil hatters"

Sorry bro, your insults aren't going to stop us from fighting for what we know is right. You don't have to buy what we're selling, but you can't just marginalize all the folks who will recognize that there are clear "irregularities" going on.

Like the "algorithmic" vote flipping? Please. The only hint of anything fishy has been Maine. Otherwise, this is absolutely nothing anyone of us can point to.

[KingNothing]

Yeah he likes to neg rep.

He neg-reps me constantly. I hate neg-repping, but I'll do it now when people toss logic aside and push unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

[sailingaway]

Nothing should go out unsubstantiated. Clips of party officials doing something like admitting they are forcing rule compliance when the rule to limit nominations hasn't been adopted yet isn't exactly unsubstantiated though, but I would present what it is, and let people draw their own conclusions.

[tbone717]

Personally, I am tired of all the fraud talk with no action. So, if you have evidence of fraud (which is a crime) then step away from the computer, pick up the phone, call an attorney and follow through with the evidence you have. Posting thread after thread on a web forum that a minuscule percentage of the population visits is pointless if you are in possession of evidence of a crime.

[TheGrinch]

He neg-reps me constantly. I hate neg-repping, but I'll do it now when people toss logic aside and push unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.

Because you're being negative, unlike the people you call conspiracy theorists.

[TheGrinch]

Personally, I am tired of all the fraud talk with no action. So, if you have evidence of fraud (which is a crime) then step away from the computer, pick up the phone, call an attorney and follow through with the evidence you have. Posting thread after thread on a web forum that a minuscule percentage of the population visits is pointless if you are in possession of evidence of a crime.

Legal action is being done as we speak too. That doesn't preclude us from exposing the "irregularities", and letting people draw conclusions for themselves.

Also, KingNothing take note that I don't neg rep tbone when it's not warranted, because he at least tends to be civil in his criticism.

[tbone717]

Legal action is being done as we speak too. That doesn't preclude us from exposing the "irregularities", and letting people draw conclusions for themselves.

What legal action has been taken? I haven't seen any reports on anything, but I haven't been on here much.

[TheGrinch]

Like the "algorithmic" vote flipping? Please. The only hint of anything fishy has been Maine. Otherwise, this is absolutely nothing anyone of us can point to.

It has happened in 3 of Georgia's largest counties with vidoe evidence, and countless other "irregularities", that make for a wealth of circumstantial evidence of the GOP not playing fair. That doesn't have to be some grand conspiracy like you want to discout it as. It's happening.

This isn't the algorithm thread where they're still looking for proof, but it's no surprise that you come in here to tie everyone together who you disagree with.

[TheGrinch]

What legal action has been taken? I haven't seen any reports on anything, but I haven't been on here much.

Regarding the blatant disregard of party rules here in Georgia, I know for a fact a suit is being sought... I know this is where you chime in that the private organization can do whatever they want, but I don't think it's that cut and dry when there is video evidence that they didn't follow their own rules, with the clear aim of disenfranchising Paulites (some even said as much, just not on film).

And if legal action doesn't work, then well, that's what I'm here to do. To expose it to the public how they're fudging the process in favor of establishment candidates.

[tbone717]

Regarding the blatant disregard of party rules here in Georgia, I know for a fact a suit is being sought... I know this is where you chime in that the private organization can do whatever they want, but I don't think it's that cut and dry when there is video evidence that they didn't follow their own rules, with the clear aim of disenfranchising Paulites (some even said as much, just not on film).

And if legal action doesn't work, then well, that's what I'm here to do. To expose it to the public how they're fudging the process in favor of establishment candidates.

That's for a jury to decide not me. But as far as exposing it to the public, you aren't doing that here Grinch. Like I said this is a small website in the grand scheme of things. Hell even a mega site like FB only reaches 50% of adults. If you have something big, then there are a lot better channels to use than web forums. The attorney that you are working with should be able to assist you with that.

[TheGrinch]

That's for a jury to decide not me. But as far as exposing it to the public, you aren't doing that here Grinch. Like I said this is a small website in the grand scheme of things. Hell even a mega site like FB only reaches 50% of adults. If you have something big, then there are a lot better channels to use than web forums. The attorney that you are working with should be able to assist you with that.

I'm working here to connect with other people who have information and experiences to compile enough circumstantial pieces that show that the GOP (not as a conspiratorial entity, but many smaller parts) are not playing fair, in an effort to derail this campaign and our delegates.

That has nothing to do with how I hope to spread it once compiled. I'm also do video editing, so there is also a possibility of just taking the most egregious incidents where they blatantly disregarded their own rules, along with tons of "irregularities" continuing to happen that GOP chairmen are being forced to step down in some cases.

I seriously have to question your motives when you constantly tell us not only not to pursue exposing potential fraud, but even suspect that, even when we can compile a whole list of "irregularities" by now. Dr. Paul certainly doesn't agree with you. He's just as skeptical as we are, but that doesn't mean we're not going to be smart about it like he is... The whole point of this thread is to do jsut that, so it would be grealty appreciated if you and KN stop derailing that.

Your opinion is noted, but I didn't watch all my GA friends get defrauded as delegates to just take that lightly. If they don't want to play nice, then the public needs to know about that so they can draw their own conclusions.