Looking for advice and Info about SSN and the driver's license

[SeekingOne]

Hello everyone. I hope that you'll be able to help me with my dilemma.

I'm 22 years old and I don't have a SSN (Or a birth certificate for that matter). I'm not an immigrant, I was born in the US, as well as my parents and grandparents. My family believes that the SSN is close to being the mark of the beast, and my beliefs are similar, but not the same. I feel that I want to be wary of it, however I'm starting to see more differences that keep it from being the mark. I'm still not exactly keen on it and if I can maneuver around it then I will.

However, it seems to be that I can't drive unless I get one. Now my parent's have been telling me that I should first exhaust my administrative remedies (which I feel that I almost have) and then file for a declaratory judgment for religious discrimination.

One problem, I haven't seen any cases yet that have had success in getting a driver's license without the SSN. I've read over two hundred court cases about this and other issues with traveling. The courts have generally said that the state's compelling interest to require the SSN is strong enough to override the plaintiff’s religious beliefs in denying the privilege to drive, since there are many other methods of travel, just not as convenient as driving.

Since my Fiance and I are hoping for a big family, this puts even more emphasis on the solution to be repeatable, as I don't want any of my kids to be in the limbo that I am in. If I'm going to drive without a SSN I want to know that my kids will be able to do so as well (Assuming things don't crash in-between then and now). It's not right for me to use a one time only solution to get to drive if my future kids can not do the same thing later on in their lives.


So here's what I'm asking the community for:

Does anyone have or know of a court case that ruled in favor of not needing a SSN to get a driver's license?
I've heard of many theories of how it should be argued. But I have yet to find a tested working one. I would like to hear from some people who have done this or who have seen it done.

What other tested, working means have people used to be able to drive W/O a SSN? I know of three or four states that have affidavits that will let them drive if they've never had a SSN. But I am not really keen on moving to any of those four states at this time.

My current feeling is that I need to go in to the SSA and apply for a SSN. And then because of my limited documents, have a 50/50 possibility of either getting either an L767 ineligibility letter, or a SSN, which I would rather not get if I can help it.
I've heard that one can intentionally botch the process, and trigger the letter by falsifying or withholding information. But that would be lying/bearing false witness to a government official: something I'd don't do, nor want to start doing.

Anyway, thanks all for letting me rant, I've been working at this for six years. I know that many of you have been at this longer and I would love to have your input. Thank you for your comments and advice in advance.

[slamhead]

This is kinda tongue and cheek but you can go to Mexico, apply for citizenship, sneak back into the US and move to a state that is pushing for drivers licenses for illegal immigrants.

[Czolgosz]

You have some research to do, my friend. SSN is an involuntary contract between you and the US government, your parents did not create a contract for you to receive government benefits.

You live under the common law. Check out the Carl Miller and Michael Badnarik videos.

A "driver" (Blacks's Law) is the operator of a vehicle for commercial purposes. Does this apply to you? If not , then you don't need a contract between you and the State.

I'm on my phone and would provide more ideas, but these keys are too small. XD



*my Plan B is one of consolidating freedom people into a high concentration where we'd live a common law life contracting with one another minus the ssn and dl's. As it was for this country through most of its history, freedom is huge draw. A place like New America would grow like wildfire

[Zippyjuan]

Not having a birth certificate may be an even more difficult problem than not having a Social Security number. They are going to want proof of who you say you are before they give you a driver's license.

[SeekingOne]

Thanks to all for your responses, Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner. It's been a hectic week.

~slamhead
LOL, I could almost pass for illegal immigrant, 'cept I don't know any spanish! I can just see it now, me being deptorted back to Mexico which I had to sneak into in the first place!

~ Czolgosz

I've heard of that legal theory before, but I haven't seen anybody actually win one yet. The cases I've read that mention that argument haven't gone anywhere except down Do you know of any that succeeded?
Haven't looked much into any of the videos yet, but I have heard the argument of the MSO, Has anyone gotten it to work?
I know that the SSN is a ponzi scheme, and if I did get one I would be very surprised if it still existed to payout money by the time I'd be old enough to get it, if I wanted to in the first place.

I had always thought something like your plan B would be nice, but I'd think it'd have to be out on an island (I don't think there are any available ) or following something along the line of a back story to a game I play once in a while. Some people didn't like the way things were being run on earth, so they went to the moon and started their own civilization. Of course, that is wishful thinking.

~Zippyjuan
I live in Maine, and on that count I have one good thing going for me, They allow you to submit an affidavit (along with some other docs) in place of a birth certificate. :grin: and I've already checked with the BMV and they said I had everything I needed except the SSN.

Thanks guys for all of your help so far.

[Mike Mitrosky]

do you have a bank account?

[SeekingOne]

No, I don't

[tttppp]

I would find an illegal immigrant and ask him how to get an illegal social security number. Most illegal immigrants that I have known, knew how to get social security numbers and other documents that they needed. They are the experts you need to ask.

[Enforcer]

Hello everyone. I hope that you'll be able to help me with my dilemma.

I'm 22 years old and I don't have a SSN (Or a birth certificate for that matter). I'm not an immigrant, I was born in the US, as well as my parents and grandparents. My family believes that the SSN is close to being the mark of the beast, and my beliefs are similar, but not the same. I feel that I want to be wary of it, however I'm starting to see more differences that keep it from being the mark. I'm still not exactly keen on it and if I can maneuver around it then I will.

However, it seems to be that I can't drive unless I get one. Now my parent's have been telling me that I should first exhaust my administrative remedies (which I feel that I almost have) and then file for a declaratory judgment for religious discrimination.

One problem, I haven't seen any cases yet that have had success in getting a driver's license without the SSN. I've read over two hundred court cases about this and other issues with traveling. The courts have generally said that the state's compelling interest to require the SSN is strong enough to override the plaintiff’s religious beliefs in denying the privilege to drive, since there are many other methods of travel, just not as convenient as driving.

Since my Fiance and I are hoping for a big family, this puts even more emphasis on the solution to be repeatable, as I don't want any of my kids to be in the limbo that I am in. If I'm going to drive without a SSN I want to know that my kids will be able to do so as well (Assuming things don't crash in-between then and now). It's not right for me to use a one time only solution to get to drive if my future kids can not do the same thing later on in their lives.


So here's what I'm asking the community for:

Does anyone have or know of a court case that ruled in favor of not needing a SSN to get a driver's license?
I've heard of many theories of how it should be argued. But I have yet to find a tested working one. I would like to hear from some people who have done this or who have seen it done.

What other tested, working means have people used to be able to drive W/O a SSN? I know of three or four states that have affidavits that will let them drive if they've never had a SSN. But I am not really keen on moving to any of those four states at this time.

My current feeling is that I need to go in to the SSA and apply for a SSN. And then because of my limited documents, have a 50/50 possibility of either getting either an L767 ineligibility letter, or a SSN, which I would rather not get if I can help it.
I've heard that one can intentionally botch the process, and trigger the letter by falsifying or withholding information. But that would be lying/bearing false witness to a government official: something I'd don't do, nor want to start doing.

Anyway, thanks all for letting me rant, I've been working at this for six years. I know that many of you have been at this longer and I would love to have your input. Thank you for your comments and advice in advance.

I have worked in this area of law in the past. Actually, BEFORE the dumb asses in the anti - immigrant lobby came along, we were winning those cases involving the SSN being a requirement for the driver's license.

PRIOR to the so - called "Patriot Act" and National ID / REAL ID Act, it was illegal for any branch of the government to deny to any person any benefit, right or privilege for failure to disclose their SSN (see the Privacy Act of 1974.) The REAL ID Act, an attempt at Hitler style identification on steroids, denies to anyone their National ID card unless and until they show proof of the SSN... which is verified, by law.

If you listen to these idiots talking about "illegal immigrants," and take their advice, you will soon find out they are full of horse dung. They are arguing decade old strategies. Today, the undocumented worker applies for a Taxpayer Identification Number and pays income tax the same way you and I do. The anti - immigrants still do not understand that it is not illegal to be in the United States without human registration papers. So, I would urge you not to be swayed by their arguments.

Honestly, the conservatives turned the clock back on our ability to reverse the 14th and 16th Amendments, so what I know about the current law may or may not be applicable. The real deal is, the National ID / REAL ID Act turned all driver's licenses into a National ID Card. The application for a driver's license now even refers to it as a National ID Card.

One of the many problems I have with the xenophobes and socialists entrenched amongst us is the fact that before their battle, we did not need any ID cards and you clearly had a Right to Travel. Here is some material that may help you:

http://righttotravel.us/

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/travel.htm

http://www.welcome.freeenterprisesoc..._to_travel.htm

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/right2travel.shtml

You may also want to read the book Liberty or License - the Right to Travel by Charles Weisman.

Despite all the proclamations about being constitutionalists, it appears that the Ron Paul Forum does not have someone here with more current information. I used to be in this area of law, but abandoned it to try and get people off the National ID bandwagon and off the backs of undocumented workers. Those fights (the ones started by the anti - immigrant lobby) reversed all the court-room wins we gained during a twenty year period.

That is not to say that you do not have a Right to Travel OR that you should run down and apply for a National ID Card... which by the way, the acceptance of such puts you in the jurisdiction of the de facto (illegal) government operating out of Washington Wonderland, District of Corruption. It may be easier on your day to day life to accept that NEW WORLD ORDER ID, the hidden cost is your soul.

[Enforcer]

I would find an illegal immigrant and ask him how to get an illegal social security number. Most illegal immigrants that I have known, knew how to get social security numbers and other documents that they needed. They are the experts you need to ask.

Here is a typical example of WHY we cannot get driver's licenses any longer. It is not "illegal" for undocumented workers to come to America without papers. Entry and presence in the United States without papers are civil violations of the law. As Attorney General Michael Mukasey pointed out:

"But not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime"

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?i...1#.T1oAfXmfW9s

Undocumented workers apply for a Taxpayer Identification Number and pay the same income taxes as everybody else.

You cannot deny to some their God given unalienable Rights and hope to keep yours intact.

“He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” Thomas Paine

BTW, I am probably one of the few with actual court-room wins in this area of the law.