Deregulating the banks?

[Black Flag]

Yes, yes it would. The government is there to serve the people.

...hahahahhahhahhahha....

Whew! ...haven't laughed that hard for awhile....

The government is NOT there to serve the People - it exists to accumulate as much power over the People as it can, right up until it consumes itself....

If the debts incurred by the government no longer represent the people, the people have the power to RENEG on that debt. End of story.

Debt and taxation are two, different things.

See above.

Yep, see above - taxes is different then debt.

You underestimate the power of FREEDOM.

Actually, that is why the dollar would win out - because of freedom - none of the other currencies have any motivation over desire to pay taxes.

This is why the tally stick was money in England - because it paid the King's tax... etc.

Force is the ONLY thing that is propping up the USD and all other fiat currencies.

Agreed - called the taxman.

Once the legal tender laws are removed, the legal use of force EVAPORATES.

Do you believe the US government would suddenly not need taxes?

Therefore, the demand for dollars would plumment (both internationally and domestically).

You can use any currency in the whole world to transact with - nothing is stopping you.

As bonds flew back into the USG treasury - the outstanding cash needed to pay off the debts would be printed and a massive devaluation would occur as capital moved into MARkET CHOSEN MONEY.

Or, more likely, the US government will merely not pay out the T-bills and default.

[Seraphim]

**SIGH**

Government is SUPPOSED to be there for the people. I didn't say it was right now. But since many people believe that, as they wake up to the fact that the State is rapping them - they will revolt. You're thick if you didn't catcht he drift of my post.

Taxes have EVERyTHING to do with debt - all government debt is contigent upon it's ability to tax.

[Steven Douglas]

Sorry, Steven, but I do absolutely know what "intrinsic" means, and what "value" means.

And there is no such thing that has intrinsic value.

Value is a human application. It is a human concept.

If a human does not value something - it has no value. Period.

Your error comes in not realizing that value has multiple meanings, and that economic value and intrinsic value are two completely different constructs - which you have erroneously conflated, using either the economic or emotional/human definitions for value. It's not.

If there were only economic and emotional definitions for value (two very different meanings as well), then I might be inclined to agree with you that there is no such thing as intrinsic value, because neither of those types of values can be intrinsic to external things. Both the price (in whatever) and desirability (in whomever) are forever extrinsic to the thing considered. The reason I can't agree with you, however, even with this clarification, is that desire for a thing is a value that is intrinsic, however fleeting, to each human - even though it is not intrinsic to what is external to them.

I put an object in your hands. You tell me, or write in a notebook, what you are holding. Not what it does, or how it is valued economically. Just what it is. What are its defining characteristics. Those physical properties are its intrinsic values.

[Black Flag]

**SIGH**

Government is SUPPOSED to be there for the people.

Who told you that????

I didn't say it was right now. But since many people believe that, as they wake up to the fact that the State is rapping them - they will revolt. You're thick if you didn't catcht he drift of my post.

The State has, is, and always will be 'raping' the People - that is the only thing it does.

Taxes have EVERyTHING to do with debt - all government debt is contigent upon it's ability to tax.

No, it is not.
No modern national government with a central bank needs taxation, nor does it need taxation to get into debt.

[Black Flag]

Your error comes in not realizing that value has multiple meanings,

No, your error is missing what sign is on the door.
This is economic and politics, not physics.

It's not.

It is so.

If there were only economic and emotional definitions for value

Go back out the door, read the sign on it, and come back in.

is that desire for a thing is a value that is intrinsic, however fleeting, to each human - even though it is not intrinsic to what is external to them.

Ok, so let's see what you just said:

A desire - a human trait that humans, and not rocks, have...
for a thing - a physical item in this universe...
is a "value".

Now, if there is no human desire for a thing, there is NO value.

The thing, without a human desire, has no value and no intrinsic value.

[Black Flag]

Steven

So, have you read Menger's definition of value?

Whenever I hear someone say that something has intrinsic value, I am sure he has a totally confused, crackpot theory of economics in general and monetary theory in particular.

There is also no such thing as intrinsic value.

The meaning of the word "intrinsic" is always difficult to pin down.
It means "autonomous."
It implies there is something 'fixed within in something'

But there is no such things as these in economics.


Carl Menger's in 1871 had an insight that economic value is imputed by each individual.
Without the individual, there could be no such imputing of value.
Further, each individual imputed his own value into things - independent of anyone else.

You caught up to 1871 yet, Steven?

[AndyW]

fuck sake, can't we just all agree that the universe is made up of love and everything is massive complex holographic fractal construct for infinite multidimension conscious growth... jeez.

[Steven Douglas]

The meaning of the word "intrinsic" is always difficult to pin down.
It means "autonomous."
It implies there is something 'fixed within in something'

But there is no such things as these in economics.

Oh yeah? Well, the next time you buy apples, or anything else, sold by weight or volume at the grocery store, you will be charged a price. That price will be its market value (in that particular market, should you pay that price) times its intrinsic value, of whatever it is times the number of pounds, ounces, gallons, liters, etc., which represents the intrinsic value (physical properties times the quantity) of whatever it is you are buying.

Intrinsic values are very easy to pin down - if you know what they are, and which ones you care about. You identify and make choices based on intrinsic values all the time without even realizing it. Small, medium or large? Hamburger or cheeseburger? Paper or plastic? Macintosh or Granny Smith? Gold or silver? In economics, intrinsic values are how we identify what it is we are paying for, and by what metric (1 car, a dozen eggs, 50 sq. ft of white vinyl tile, a half gallon of milk, etc., all of which are intrinsic values, autonomous/inherent to the object of consideration). In accounting, the intrinsic values are the entries in the QTY and Description columns.

EDIT: You could buy a little card with a picture of an apple on it, and while it may be useful for something other than food, it won't be nutritious, and it won't be the same as food, because it doesn't have the same intrinsic value of a real apple (i.e., an actual apple, of a given weight of a given variety, complete with color, shape, skin, flesh, core, stem, fiber, vitamins, natural enzymes, etc., all of which are its intrinsic values)

Isn't that a wonderful marriage of physics and economics? Without physics to describe some of the all-important intrinsic values, you might not know what to pay, and they might not know what to charge! Oh, and "per each" leaves us only with the intrinsic value of "one" (of a given thing, it's intrinsic value still being whatever it is - egg, apple, loaf, etc.,) times the price per each. Even then the price will still have a relation to various intrinsic values - like price per pound, oz., gram, liter, gallon, etc.,

Stick that in your economic crackpot pipe and smoke it.

[Seraphim]

This is why I'm a voluntarist/an-cap.

[Steven Douglas]

This is why I'm a voluntarist/an-cap.

^This. 100%. Anything less is...barbaric. Brutish. Blind to individual rights, artificially organized by brute force and compulsion, and to that extent, not civilized at all.