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Thread: LVT Thread going off topic: The government revenue perspective

  1. #1

    LVT Thread going off topic: The government revenue perspective

    Nobody is even discussing the main problem with the LVT Tax, which is the raising of revenue.

    I am asserting that the LVT is not a reliable source of government revenue.

    Sales of property are not consistent and would have periods of slow activity. Especially in the "community" setting.

    The government could artificially set land prices causing massive inflation whenever one of these slow periods happens.

    Whatever the size of government, this would be a budgetary disaster.

    Forget economic/property rights problems, the LVT cannot even do an effective job as a tax.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaAvenger View Post
    Nobody is even discussing the main problem with the LVT Tax, which is the raising of revenue.

    I am asserting that the LVT is not a reliable source of government revenue.
    Which is of course wildly wrong. It is extremely reliable. In fact, it is probably the most reliable revenue source there is.
    Sales of property are not consistent and would have periods of slow activity. Especially in the "community" setting.
    LVT doesn't depend on property sales for revenue. Revenue is the same even if there are zero sales. You are just makin' $#!+ up.
    The government could artificially set land prices causing massive inflation whenever one of these slow periods happens.
    No, it couldn't, because if it tries to charge more than people are willing to pay for the services it gives, they will just not pay it, leaving the government with less revenue. LVT is the only self-limiting tax. Government CANNOT raise excessive revenue using LVT, because that would just make land value negative.
    Whatever the size of government, this would be a budgetary disaster.
    No, you are just makin' $#!+ up.
    Forget economic/property rights problems, the LVT cannot even do an effective job as a tax.
    No, that is stupid garbage. It has worked everywhere it has ever been tried, to the exact extent that it has been tried.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Roy L View Post
    Government CANNOT raise excessive revenue using LVT, because that would just make land value negative.
    Absolute jibberish and irrelevant silliness, given we aren't talking about a currently implemented LVT, and the fact that land can be valued and LVT can be implemented in any number of ways, which not all geolibs even agree upon.

    So don't waste time arguing your own pet version as if that's what LVT was.

    I showed you in another thread an experimental LVT community - the rates were based on a BUDGET. First a budget was established -THEN the rates (the land values/mill rates, etc.,) were determined on that basis, however much was needed to satisfy the budget requirement for that year. When I brought it up, you trashed it as not a "real" LVT in your mind.

    I hate to break it to you, but you're not the Definer in Chief, Roy. And how others implement LVT goes a long way as an indicator of how one would be implemented elsewhere.

  5. #4
    Steven is correct, OP. We've been over that point with Roy and his various puppets, but the threads are so long and tedious it will take a while to find it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaAvenger View Post
    Nobody is even discussing the main problem with the LVT Tax, which is the raising of revenue.

    I am asserting that the LVT is not a reliable source of government revenue.
    It is 100% reliable. The location of land is known to the inch. Land cannot be taken off-shore to avoid tax.

    Geoism Proven To Work

    Denmark prospered under the Geoist system for 3 years until right-wing vested interest of landowners scuppered it. A system like this will pull the USA up by its bootstraps.

    The Danes, by old tradition, have been accustomed to the concept that the land belongs to the people. The rapid industrialization and land enclosures of the 18th and 19th centuries, begun in England and made impact in Denmark challenging this tradition. More land was seized as industrialization grew in Denmark.

    Liberals Adopt LVT

    Farmers were pressed in the later half of the 19th century; many of them found support in the ideas contained in a newly released book "Progress and Poverty", by Henry George. As the economic situation became even tougher for small farmers, a so called "Georgist" movement began and the Danish Henry George Union was founded in 1902. Some of its more active members wanted a better platform for their political ambitions, and these members cooperated with other philosophic groups and public leaders in forming the Radical Left Wing Party (Liberals), declaring that:
    1. Land value taxation, LVT, (site revenue) should collect all the publicly created rent of land for government expenses,
    2. Income Tax to be abolished accelerating the free market
    Around this time of course, Karl Marx was advocating that the workers unite to fight the desperate conditions of the working man. The Danes took the line of Henry George. Social Democrats were inspired by George advocating in its political program the taxation of land value, know as site revenue.

    Parties join to create the Economic Justice Party

    Over the next fifty years, not only in Denmark but around the world, there was long and intense debate about liberty and freedom; amongst free traders, pacifists, humanists, philosophers and religious institutions alike. Many of these people went to each other's meetings and contributed articles to each other's publications. Finally, they knew each other so well, that many of them decided to establish a union with the object of appealing to voters for seats in Parliament. The Justice Party was formed.

    The economic policy of the Justice Party was simple; to collect tax only from the value of land and abolish all taxes on labour and capital. For a new political party, their effect was astonishing. Progress was quick and in 1952, they won 12 seats of a possible 179. They effected the appointment of a Government commission for ground rent in Denmark, who wrote its report clearly advocating the benefits of site revenue. In 1957 the Justice Party, together with the Social Democrats (Labour) and the Radical Left Wing Party (Liberals) formed what was to become the most prosperous ever Danish Government - later termed the Ground Rent Government.

    Three political parties made an agreement based upon the following:
    • Collection taxes from the values of land only (LVT)
    • Liberalization of trade
    • A tax freeze
    It was therefore generally expected that after formation of the government, some kind of LVT would be introduced. Land speculation ceased immediately in anticipation of LVT. Legislation on taxation of increased land value was prepared, presented to parliament and passed.

    The economic effects of the cessation of land speculation were astounding and aroused much attention. On the 2nd October, 1960, the New York Times headlined, "Big Lesson from a Small Nation."

    Prior to the election of 1957, Denmark had a sizable deficit on her balance of payments, was considerably in debt abroad, and burdened with a relatively high interest rate, big unemployment figures and an annual rate of inflation of approximately 5%.

    From 1957 to 1960, the following improvements took place:
    • The big deficit on her balance of payments was turned into a surplus.
    • Denmark's total debts abroad amounting to 1,600 million kr. were reduced to one quarter of this, about 400 million kr.
    • The rate of interest, and hence mortgage levels dropped.
    • Unemployment was soon replaced by almost full employment, together with considerable increases in production and wages.
    • Inflation was brought to a standstill. All wage increases were real wage increases, the highest ever in Denmark.
    • No other taxes were levied during this period. (except one, referred to later.)
    • The time was free of strikes. Industrial production went up 32%,
    • investment rose 135%
    • Savings increased immensely, as once again it became profitable to accumulate savings.
    After three years in power, Denmark had no foreign debt, no inflation and an unemployment level of 1%, considered full employment. So why is this not continuing?
    • Until 1960, the Social Democrats were advocating the LVT for the purposes of government social responsibilities, the Radicals and Justice Party advocated LVT for the purposes of income tax reduction. Minor conflict developed.

    • Prior to 1960, "Georgist" beliefs dictated that when a heavy "tax" is levied upon land value, land price will decrease. The consequences of full employment, no inflation, no foreign debt, increasing production and rising real wages however, brought about a prodigious demand for homes, enterprises and of course land. Land prices did not initially fall, as was predicted. In fact land prices rose. The Justice Party was unprepared for this.

    • In the late fifties, the Danish foreign debt was seen to be at crisis level. To assist with this, the Ground Rent Government did levy one new income tax. In addition to this of course, rising real incomes were eroded in part with the progressive nature of income tax on higher incomes. The self interested wealthy land owners had a field day confusing the fact that overall, taxes did go down by 10%. The general public found little reason to doubt the anti-Georgist literature stating that LVT was simply another tax on top of all the other taxes. The land owners had no problem in fanning the now growing belief that the "socialists", (read communists, given the Cold War era), wanted to get hold of your property.
    At the general election of 1960, the opposition used, for the time, the largest sum ever in any Danish election campaign, financed by the Conservatives and Landowner associations. Such is the power of self-interested groups. With its limited financial resources and lacking support from the daily press, the Justice Party was unable to withstand the attacks. Agitation against the LVT legislation continued after the election and the new, weakened government gave in. Further strong pressure from land-owner associations had the LVT laws repealed in 1964.

    After LVT was dropped. In 1964:
    • The currency surplus became a currency deficit.
    • The annual deficit on the balance of payments in 1972 was 3 billion kr.
    • Debts abroad amount today to 20,000 million kr.
    • The effective rate of interest has been doubled.
    • Land prices jumped sky-high. Denmark's overall land value rose from 17 billion kr. at the assessment of 1960 to 67 billion in 1969, and reached 100 billion at the next assessment in 1973.
    • Rents in new housing are six fold those of 1964.
    • The rate of inflation rose from barely 1 per cent to 5-7 per cent and was 8.6 per cent in 1965, the year after repeal of the land tax law in 1964.
    • Taxes have risen again and again and are today five times higher.
    A comparison between the three periods, before, during and after the so-called "Ground Rent Government," gives a clear picture of the importance of eliminating land speculation. LVT did that painlessly.

    The failure of the Justice Party was a naïve underestimation of the facts that
    1. Population were not educated to what LVT was - Only few Danes knew what LVT was all about, most people did not know the good effects they already enjoyed because of LVT and that the possibilities of citizens in general would improve further when more LVT would be levied; people in general did not understand that the revenue of LVT belonged to them all in common.
    2. Landowners & Self-Interest Groups Oppose - The extremely powerful opposing powers dominating the public media - electronic and printed, which imposed on people in general the understanding that LVT was a tax like all other taxes, that it would be unjust if only landowners should pay all taxes, etc. Further they emphasized that poor citizens having no income or only small income would not take advantage of reduction of income taxes, which was crucial because many LVT proponents promised reduced income tax when LVT was publicly collected.
    Last edited by JohnLVT; 03-11-2012 at 10:30 AM.

  7. #6
    Yeah, the Danes just instituted a "fat tax" too. Can't have a bunch of stupid fat people deciding things for themselves. Trans fats - completely banned. Other fats - taxed for their own good.

    The power to tax really is the power to modify behavior. And it does bring the control-freak nasties slithering out from under rocks, and coming out of the woodwork.

    Give Denmark another five years with its current leverage, and let's see how well it's liberal mass controlling experiments, including their outlook on LVT, looks then.

    Meanwhile, once again with your cut and paste, the correlation-equals-causation false attribution fallacy is busy at work, signifying nothing.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    Yeah, the Danes just instituted a "fat tax" too. Can't have a bunch of stupid fat people deciding things for themselves. Trans fats - completely banned. Other fats - taxed for their own good.
    Sounds good. The USA will clean up raking in fat taxes. Fantastic.

    It is clear that Denmark's LVT at National level was great success. Learn from it. Embrace it. Open up your mind to proven success, not unbaked theories, that when implemented fail.
    Last edited by JohnLVT; 03-11-2012 at 10:33 AM.



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