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Thread: Gay rights and similar issues - Ron Paul hater

  1. #1

    Gay rights and similar issues - Ron Paul hater

    Hi folks,

    I am having a debate about Ron Paul to an anti RP voter. They said this (excuse any grammatical issues):

    "Paul voting YES on banning gay adoptions in DC and he Opposes “hate crimes” legislation. (Sep 2007) or when he Paul Voted NO on enforcing against anti-gay hate crimes. (Apr 2009) and he has said things like Gender-equal pay violates idea of voluntary contract. (Dec 1987)"

    Can anyone shed light on those issues, clearly they don't sound like something he'd say or if he did, his intent is taken out of context. Any references to actual video would be good - I prefer to hear him speak than read something that could be subject to manipulation/editing.

    EDIT: Found an article that is also worth looking into, search google for "Anti-Gay Hate Group Chair Is Now Ron Paul’s Iowa State Director"
    Last edited by AndyW; 03-04-2012 at 06:24 AM.



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  3. #2
    What gay people get from Ron Paul is someone who doesn't want the government in their bedrooms. Those who demand more than that from him are arguing with a brick wall.

  4. #3
    They are not out of context, they are just an idea you may not be used to. Hate Crimes are not any worse than Greed Crimes or Lust Crimes or Stupid Crimes. If someone assualts you, does it matter why? Not, they get to go to jail for assault.

    They more the government interferes in contract law the harder it is to make contract, thus fewer contracts get made. This includes employment contracts and investment contracts.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  5. #4
    Please forgive my lack of knowledge, this area is hazy for me. So are you saying that often it will appear that he's against what seems like a 'sound' policy because it shouldn't be an issue for federal gov. to deal with? And should instead be a state issue?

  6. #5
    Ron Paul is for individual liberty, giving any specific group or subset of society "special treatment" infringes on individual liberty.

    Say you propose to have separate barracks for people with green eyes in boot camp........You would be asking for green-eyed people to be granted a different status than everyone else.

    No person or group of people should be shown favoritism under law.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    They are not out of context, they are just an idea you may not be used to. Hate Crimes are not any worse than Greed Crimes or Lust Crimes or Stupid Crimes. If someone assualts you, does it matter why? Not, they get to go to jail for assault.

    They more the government interferes in contract law the harder it is to make contract, thus fewer contracts get made. This includes employment contracts and investment contracts.
    The only defense to a crime is that you didn't intend to commit the act, not that you didn't mean anything by it. Love is not a defense. Apathy is not a defense. The only significance of "hate," is whether you're likely to commit the act again, which only factors into sentencing.

    But, a "hate crime" implies that an act against a person is really an act against an entire group (i.e., creed, ethnicity, or sexual orientation). So, if you kill a home invader, of a different race than your own, to protect your family, "hate crime" legislation can treat you as a genocidal maniac, and a presumed further threat to an entire race; instead of being acquitted for self defense, you could end up sharing a cell with Charlie Manson.

  8. #7
    Intent is already a factor when you prosecute someone for a crime. "Method, Means, Motive," remember? If something is 1st degree murder, it is not suddenly worse-than-first-degree because of the motive, any moreso than it should be worse if the person cuts up the remains and feeds them through a wood chipper. It certainly goes towards sentencing considerations, though, and it can serve to tie the accused to the crime. As an example, if the victim was lynched and the accused is a KKK member with a history of increasingly violent actions testified to by his fellows, it does seem to suggest a connection (if that evidence is even allowed).

    You don't need special protection because you are black, female, LGBT, and so on. It's pretty insulting to think that groups need a special little pat on the head along those lines.

    Where you work and how much you are paid for it --- how much is "fair" --- should be a matter for an individual and their employer to work out. Insisting someone be paid, regardless of skill or work ethic, based more on ethnicity or gender or preference... that's pretty anti-liberty. Gay marriage? Marriage should not be a Federal issue at all. Hell, I'm inclined to think it should not be a government issue on any level, but least of all Federal. Gay adoption? Should be handled by the individuals involved in those transactions. If it is vital for you that the child you are giving up be raised by heterosexuals, then you'd give it up to an agency that prohibits placement in such homes... and your child might have a little more trouble getting placed. It should be a private issue.

  9. #8
    Thanks for you input Melissa. I have found that a lot of anti Ron Paul voters think that he is OPPOSED to the thing that is being put forward e.g. the right for gay people to marry - but what he actually means is that he's opposed to it even being an issue in the first place. But, for anyone reading this who might be a campaigner, you need to know what the misconceptions are out there and tackle them.

    It takes brains to figure out what Ron Paul is trying to do sometimes and unfortunately, the opposition is lacking in that department. I'm currently getting pounded by such people on a facebook group called "I acknowledge class warfare exists" because of this level of ignorance.

    "Ron Paul is against banking regulations... he wants the US to go back to 1920." etc.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
    "Ron Paul is against banking regulations... he wants the US to go back to 1920." etc.
    Lol. in 1920 bank crashes only took six months to recover from.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
    Hi folks,
    "Paul voting YES on banning gay adoptions in DC
    That sounds anti-gay to me. That was a while back, though. Most people used to be uncomfortable with gay people. The times have already changed in a big way, at least where I live, in the highest GLBT area in the US.

    and he Opposes “hate crimes” legislation. (Sep 2007) or when he Paul Voted NO on enforcing against anti-gay hate crimes. (Apr 2009) and he has said things like Gender-equal pay violates idea of voluntary contract. (Dec 1987)"
    All of those things sound pro-gay, pro-straight, pro-everyone. If someone wants government mandated hate crimes legislation or government mandated gender-equal pay, isn't that saying that gays are defenseless and weak? Or perhaps, women aren't as smart, skilled, talented or useful as men? Isn't that like saying that gay people and women are inferior to non-gay men? Isn't that like saying that since gays and women are so inferior, there is no way they can make it without the government giving them huge advantages?

    I don't know, if I thought bigotry was common (and I don't), I'd think your friend is showing signs of bigotry. What is more likely is that you friend doesn't like freedom because they don't understand what freedom is. Hopefully, your friend learns about freedom. There is still hope for your friend.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
    Hi folks,

    I am having a debate about Ron Paul to an anti RP voter. They said this (excuse any grammatical issues):

    "Paul voting YES on banning gay adoptions in DC and he Opposes “hate crimes” legislation. (Sep 2007) or when he Paul Voted NO on enforcing against anti-gay hate crimes. (Apr 2009) and he has said things like Gender-equal pay violates idea of voluntary contract. (Dec 1987)"

    Can anyone shed light on those issues, clearly they don't sound like something he'd say or if he did, his intent is taken out of context. Any references to actual video would be good - I prefer to hear him speak than read something that could be subject to manipulation/editing.

    EDIT: Found an article that is also worth looking into, search google for "Anti-Gay Hate Group Chair Is Now Ron Paul’s Iowa State Director"
    I think he opposed federal funding of gay adoptions which ties into the oath he took.

  14. #12
    lol, they are NOT my friend. They are a non Paul voter and a political sparring partner for what will probably be a 24 hour period.

    Next mission is to figure out why Paul didn't vote on the NDAA. So far I've got nothing, and a team of anti Paul voters sniping at me like a pack of piranhas. Good times.

  15. #13
    Ron Paul is consistant about individual freedom. The fact that Ron Paul does not play into special interest and identity politics is what makes Ron Paul so attractive. Special clauses do nothing but devide
    us.

  16. #14
    Hate crimes are forms of government discrimination. I know as I am a minority.

    Why should the government value one person's life or a group of people more so than another? It's just morally wrong.

    Socialism and collectivism is a brainwashing disease. Don't expect to get through to these anti-Paul haters.
    Last edited by Liberty74; 03-04-2012 at 08:06 PM.
    If Rand does not win the Republican nomination, he should buck the controlled two party system and run as an Independent for President in 2016 and give Americans a real option to vote for.

    We are all born libertarians then something goes really wrong. Despite this truth, most people are still libertarians yet not know it.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
    Next mission is to figure out why Paul didn't vote on the NDAA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravik View Post
    I keep hearing people say Paul didn't vote on the NDAA

    When in fact, he did:

    http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll375.xml#N

    HR 1540, aka National Defense Authorization Act.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...highlight=ndaa

    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    That bill has had a lot of votes.

    Here's a history of all the votes related to that bill:
    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...1540&tab=votes

    Ron Paul didn't vote on the Conference Report, which is the last vote.
    And as far as "hate crimes" are concerned....don't you think it is a bit racist to have "separate but semi-equal" murder, assault, etc. Shouldn't murder be murder? Or is murdering someone from Group A somehow better or worse than murdering someone from Group B? The whole idea is dangerous, (because when you say that one murder is worse -> you are saying that one is better) and something that I would never want Ron to support...the "valuing" of people based on race,sex,sexual preference, what they smoke, who they hang out with, the color of their eyes, etc. Disgusting.
    Last edited by hillertexas; 03-05-2012 at 09:09 AM.
    R[∃vo˩]ution

    I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. -Ronald Reagan



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