Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: The "original sin" of the United States (not slavery)

  1. #1

    Default The "original sin" of the United States (not slavery)

    What I don't understand is that it is said that if the idea that the people of other nations would be better off if we left them alone and left them to win democracy on their own, without US interference. But don't we own a debt of gratitude for our own freedom to the French? Are we being hypocritical if we say to other nations. Fight for your own freedom.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2

    Default

    What "we" do is one thing. What our ancestors did is something completely different. Besides that, we backed the French in two world wars and Vietnam.

  4. #3

    Default

    A few flaws in your assumption.

    1. France was not helping us to promote our freedom. In fact France was the most powerful absolute monarchy of that day. The only reason they helped us was as a strategic way to get back at Britain. We just really lucked out that we were able to capitalize on it for our gain. They got what they wanted out of it, to punch Britain in the face and help deny them an important source of resources and wealth, and so did we. That means we don't "owe" them anything.

    2. We have twice now been the saviors of France. In WWI we stopped Germany from conquering France. In WWII we liberated France from German occupation. Any "debt" we owed is completely paid in full, twice over.

    3. In the end, what another nation chooses to do has any bearing on what teh US should choose to do. The US government has one legitimate goal with its foreign policy. "There is one and only one legitimate goal of United States foreign policy. It is a narrow goal, a nationalistic goal: the preservation of our national independence. Nothing in the Constitution grants that the President shall have the privilege of offering himself as a world leader. He’s our executive; he’s on our payroll, in necessary; he’s supposed to put our best interests in front of those of other nations. Nothing in the Constitution nor in logic grants to the President of the United States or to Congress the power to influence the political life of other countries, to “uplift” their cultures, to bolster their economies, to feed their peoples or even to defend them against their enemies." (Ezra Taft Benson) Other countries should do the same. That they don't is no fault of ours.
    "The bird or the cage?"-The Lutece Twins

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

    "That every man may act... be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment. And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose"- Jesus Christ, Doctrine and Covenants 101:78-80

  5. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    the back row
    Posts
    1,023

    Default

    The French were trying to get something out of the deal just like we do. If it was all about creating democracy why not start close to home with Cuba?... Its always about natural resources. Cigars are good but they are better when your driving around in your Caddy

    oh and I thought this was going to be about Native American genocide.
    Last edited by Johnny Appleseed; 03-02-2012 at 05:07 PM.

  6. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Appleseed View Post
    oh and I thought this was going to be about Native American genocide.
    Me too.
    to OP:
    France didn't force democracy on us.

  7. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Appleseed View Post
    oh and I thought this was going to be about Native American genocide.
    Sadly, that was happening long before the states were united,, or even in existence.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  8. #7

    Default

    I'm sorry, I believe I may have misstated my point. It's not so much about the intentions or purpose of the foreign intervention. Or whether or not we owe the French anything for their involvement. It's the fact that their involvement played a significant role in winning the American Revolution. Which leads to reason, what if the 1780 French were govern by a non-interventionist ideology?

  9. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thequietkid10 View Post
    I'm sorry, I believe I may have misstated my point. It's not so much about the intentions or purpose of the foreign intervention. Or whether or not we owe the French anything for their involvement. It's the fact that their involvement played a significant role in winning the American Revolution. Which leads to reason, what if the 1780 French were govern by a non-interventionist ideology?
    The line of questioning is moot though. What if they were? Would the US have lost? You can answer that yes and no and both be valid. Because you can prove neither, neither answer is useful. And it comes back to this-it doesn't matter. The purpose of US foreign policy isn't to do what is best for other countries. The purpose of US foreign policy is to do what is best for us. And it is better for the country to be non-interventionist than it is to involve ourself in every military adventure across the world.

    "There is one and only one legitimate goal of United States foreign policy. It is a narrow goal, a nationalistic goal: the preservation of our national independence. Nothing in the Constitution grants that the President shall have the privilege of offering himself as a world leader. He’s our executive; he’s on our payroll, in necessary; he’s supposed to put our best interests in front of those of other nations. Nothing in the Constitution nor in logic grants to the President of the United States or to Congress the power to influence the political life of other countries, to “uplift” their cultures, to bolster their economies, to feed their peoples or even to defend them against their enemies." -Ezra Taft Benson
    "The bird or the cage?"-The Lutece Twins

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

    "That every man may act... be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment. And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose"- Jesus Christ, Doctrine and Covenants 101:78-80

  10. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Appleseed View Post
    The French were trying to get something out of the deal just like we do. If it was all about creating democracy why not start close to home with Cuba?... Its always about natural resources. Cigars are good but they are better when your driving around in your Caddy

    oh and I thought this was going to be about Native American genocide.
    I think genocide is an incorrect word. Mass murder, yes. But genocide, the intentional program of exterminating every single native on the continent, never happened. It was never planned. We did kill thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of natives. But even such slaughter is not genocide. Genocide has a specific definition. And while what we did was wrong, it does not fit the definition of genocide.
    Last edited by PierzStyx; 03-02-2012 at 09:18 PM.
    "The bird or the cage?"-The Lutece Twins

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

    "That every man may act... be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment. And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose"- Jesus Christ, Doctrine and Covenants 101:78-80

  11. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Me too.
    to OP:
    France didn't force democracy on us.
    The US wasn't a democracy.

  12. #11

    Default

    As stated, France did not act to support the Americans because they loved Americans and wanted them to be free.

    They acted for their own self-interest ...which was kicking England in the shin.

    "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

    One has to remember that the Americans and French almost went to a full war in 1798
    The Quasi-War was an undeclared war fought mostly at sea between the United States and the French Republic from 1798 to 1800. In the United States, the conflict was sometimes also referred to as the Franco-American War, the Pirate Wars, or the Half-War.

  13. #12

    Default

    Funding occupation of Palestinians amd bombing of Iraqi civilians under false pretences and greedy, revengy, anti-arab anti-semitic motivations?

  14. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    St. Petersburg, FL
    Posts
    1,955

    Default

    Our 'original sin' is having established a state in the first place. A government cannot grow in a stateless society. In a constitutional republic? Well, look at history for the answer.

  15. #14

    Default

    The problem with the whole Non-interventionist policy that somebody brings up from that era is that, this is clearly myth. As George Washington didn't really believe in trading with the Native tribes, no matter how much he may of disliked them. He saw all of the land beyond the thirteen states as rightfully the white man's land.

    Non-intervention is more myth than fact. I think only Mr Paul can really make that a reality, with myths and lies of the past, he can bring forward a true way and possibly sort out the Native tribes for some decency.
    Last edited by Republicanguy; 03-09-2012 at 07:21 AM.





« Previous Thread | Next Thread »


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •