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Thread: Are wealthy people unethical?

  1. #1

    Are wealthy people unethical?

    This is something that I think needs to be addressed. My personal belief is that the way our current system is set up, being unethical gives you a tremendous advantage. The problem is with the system, not that the things that should make you wealthy like productivity, ingenuity, resourcefulness, etc correlate with unethical behavior. The problem is that those things will not generally make you wealthy in our society.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...73109.abstract

    Seven studies using experimental and naturalistic methods reveal that upper-class individuals behave more unethically than lower-class individuals. In studies 1 and 2, upper-class individuals were more likely to break the law while driving, relative to lower-class individuals. In follow-up laboratory studies, upper-class individuals were more likely to exhibit unethical decision-making tendencies (study 3), take valued goods from others (study 4), lie in a negotiation (study 5), cheat to increase their chances of winning a prize (study 6), and endorse unethical behavior at work (study 7) than were lower-class individuals. Mediator and moderator data demonstrated that upper-class individuals’ unethical tendencies are accounted for, in part, by their more favorable attitudes toward greed.



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  3. #2
    The system is unethical. Central bankers get their power from counterfeiting. It's a tad ridiculous that some "banker" should be worth $trillions while others strive to find shelter and decent quality food. He's not THAT hard of a worker! He doesn't benefit society THAT much more than a gardener! Sure, an honest system would have some inequity. The harder one works, the more persistent, the more intelligent will prosper more than the lazy people. But, if it is based on honest efforts, then the disparity of wealth would shrink to reasonable levels based on efforts of production and benefit to society.
    Last edited by Travlyr; 02-28-2012 at 10:33 AM.

  4. #3
    There is no system which can create ethical people. There will aways be those who will do whatever they think they can get away with. "To the benefit of all society" assumes that all people would be honest and altruistic which they are not. Everybody wants what they can get for themselves basically.
    He doesn't benefit society THAT much more than a gardener!
    Sounds kinda like communism- the higher ups do not deserve to be paid much more than those at the lower levels. If you were CEO of a company would you agree to be paid the same as the janitor in the name of fairness- especially if he/ she did a really good job?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    There is no system which can create ethical people. There will aways be those who will do whatever they think they can get away with. "To the benefit of all society" assumes that all people would be honest and altruistic which they are not. Everybody wants what they can get for themselves basically.
    But people respond to incentives. If they can make billions through crooked dealing without making a productive contribution, as under our current system, then that's what they will do. If the only way to make money is through making a commensurate contribution to production, then at least the people who make a lot of money will have earned it.
    Sounds kinda like communism- the higher ups do not deserve to be paid much more than those at the lower levels. If you were CEO of a company would you agree to be paid the same as the janitor in the name of fairness- especially if he/ she did a really good job?
    Nonsense. I have no problem with how much CEOS are paid. I have a problem with what they are paid FOR, which in the current system is usually crooked political and financial manipulations unrelated to any sort of productive contribution. I have known people who made a lot of money BY THEIR PRODUCTIVE CONTRIBUTIONS, and people who have made much, much more money through manipulation and crooked dealing. The former DESERVE to have a lot more money than other people. The latter deserve to be in jail.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    There is no system which can create ethical people.
    I agree. Some people behave in an ethical manner while others behave in unethical manners. That is one reason contract law, restitution, and justice are so important.

    There are, however, ethical monetary systems and unethical monetary systems. When the special privilege of counterfeiting money is allowed by only a few elite in order to bless them with abundant wealth and power at the expense of everyone else, then that is an unethical monetary system. It is theft. That is what central banking is ... The Federal Reserve System ... and the like. Another term for it is "elastic" money.

    Sound monetary policy is an ethical system of money. It starts with an individual's right to own a little piece of the world's pie ... a piece of land with rights to the minerals, water, and privacy against trespassers. Then if a landowner choses to work the land, build on that land, or mine the land, he/she can enjoy the fruits of his/her labor. Contract law protects individuals against thieves who steal from honest producers by seeking restitution for the theft. Sound monetary systems are ethical systems of money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    There will aways be those who will do whatever they think they can get away with. "To the benefit of all society" assumes that all people would be honest and altruistic which they are not. Everybody wants what they can get for themselves basically.
    And that is what Dr. Ron Paul is referring to when he says that "everybody who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable." Not all people are ethical, so a system of ethics is in order to settle disputes and establish justice. In other words, put an end to the unethical system of money ... End The Fed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Sounds kinda like communism- the higher ups do not deserve to be paid much more than those at the lower levels.
    Not at all. If you read the "10 Planks of The Communist Manifesto" then you will discover that the intention of the socialists is to control society with a central bank, indoctrination systems of control, and force everybody to pay into the system for the greater good of society. As you can easily see, communism is what Americans have had to endure since 1913 ... and even before ... since 1861 when the socialistic parasites first invaded our republic with their irredeemable paper currency, wars for profit, and income tax. The fact is that they are closest to the money printing machine so they take money off the top in the form of insider privilege ... otherwise known as bailouts, etc. They take $billions for being elite and pay their janitors $thousands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If you were CEO of a company would you agree to be paid the same as the janitor in the name of fairness- especially if he/ she did a really good job?
    No, not at all. If the janitor doesn't want to take the business risks that a CEO must take, then he'll have to be happy with janitor's wages as set by the marketplace. As a CEO of my company, since I possess some empathic traits, if I was earning 100,000 ounces of silver each year, then I could see my way to pay the janitor 30 pieces of silver per week. If that is not enough, then he has the right to ask for more, and I have the right to pay his demand, or let him go his way and hire a new janitor. Everybody is free to succeed if they so choose.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  7. #6
    Are poor people unethical? I mean it's the poor vote for socialist government so that they'd rob the middle-class & rich & give it to them!

    I think such rhetoric is only used by class-warfarists, who want to usurp power by using people's ignorance, jealousy & insecurity; there are ethical & unethical amongst poor as well as rich
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Are poor people unethical? I mean it's the poor vote for socialist government so that they'd rob the middle-class & rich & give it to them!

    I think such rhetoric is only used by class-warfarists, who want to usurp power by using people's ignorance, jealousy & insecurity; there are ethical & unethical amongst poor as well as rich
    It's not purely rhetoric. The studies are a matter of scientific fact.

  9. #8
    I just don't see this as legitimate science. I strongly question the motives of studies that try to classify a group's morals/ethics based on their wealth or lack thereof.

    But I guess you do need "scientific facts" to back up cases for legislation. [sarcasm]



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    If the janitor doesn't want to take the business risks that a CEO must take, then he'll have to be happy with janitor's wages as set by the marketplace.
    That certainly is an elitist simplified version of reality.

    Quickly I can compile a list of Physical Risks for janitorial work that outweigh "business" Risks associated with being a CEO:

    Falls; Broken Bones
    Chemical Burns
    Brain Damage from Inhalation
    Lung and Eye Irritation
    Back Injury
    Bio Hazards, Blood, Urine, Feces
    Damage Liability
    Security Responsibilities
    Electrical Hazards
    Muscle and Joint Damage

    When is the last time as CEO you've read an MSDS?

    A CEO takes risks with other peoples careers and corporate bank accounts to determine whether he'll make $250,000 or $25,000,000 this year.

    A Janitor takes risks with his own health and public safety to determine if he'll make $25,000 or.... get fired.

    Clearly it is not risk that determines the ever rising 200:1 CEO to Janitorial pay ratio in the US.

    may cause permanent reproductive harm,

    presence
    Last edited by presence; 03-03-2012 at 10:50 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  12. #10
    I just don't see this as legitimate science. I strongly question the motives of studies that try to classify a group's morals/ethics based on their wealth or lack thereof.
    You don't seem to have a problem with the science. You have a problem with the conclusions. If you have a problem with the methodology of the studies, it would nice if you pointed out the flaws you see in what they did. For instance how they collected the data, who they polled, etc. I know some of these things are just abstracts and not very detailed, but you can make inferences even from that. To blanket discount the studies as unscientific without addressing the details of the way they were performed is illegitimate.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by furface View Post
    It's not purely rhetoric. The studies are a matter of scientific fact.
    Bull$#@!. There is no such thing as a scientific fact on a study like this. I know rich people and I know poor people and they all have the same human failings.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  14. #12
    The question is pointless.

    The amount of wealth you have does not change the roots of your character.

    If you become immoral because you have money simply means you were always immoral, you just couldn't afford it before.

    The measure of all action:
    "The means justifies the end"

    If the means is evil, the end will be evil - no matter how "good" the end is proclaimed to be.
    If the means is moral and good, the end does not much matter - it will take good care of itself.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Flag View Post
    The question is pointless.

    The amount of wealth you have does not change the roots of your character.
    I believe the point was quite the opposite:

    The roots of your character determines the amount of wealth you can accumulate.

    Consider two men living in the forest:

    A poor man living in the woods with his family might wake up, and be thankful for the beauty of the forest, take what little his family needs from the woodland for the day.


    A rich man living in the woods with his family might wake up, clear cut the forest, sell the cleared land at a profit, and move his family to another forest, all the wealthier... to repeat the process again.

    Last edited by presence; 03-03-2012 at 11:06 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by furface View Post
    It's not purely rhetoric. The studies are a matter of scientific fact.
    Not really. People move in and out of "poverty" regularly. The studies you mention are contradicted by other studies. ETA: In this country, "poor" people aren't really that poor compared to the poor elsewhere in the world. Free up the economy from State control and this well improve even more.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 03-03-2012 at 11:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  17. #15
    Bull$#@!. There is no such thing as a scientific fact on a study like this.
    Scientific fact means an observed phenomenon that is reproducible. The results were reproduced in 7 different studies. If you have reason to believe they fudged their data or are in any way reporting misinformation, that would make it not a scientific fact. Nothing posted here as of yet qualifies as a serious refutation of the scientific methodology used in the studies.
    Last edited by furface; 03-03-2012 at 11:10 AM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by furface View Post
    Scientific fact means an observed phenomenon that is reproducible. The results were reproduced in 7 different studies. If you have reason to believe they fudged their data or are in any way reporting misinformation, that would make it not a scientific fact.
    How do you PROVE unethical? Unethical can mean a whole lot of different things to different people. I for one might think that promoting the concept of this thread as unethical.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.



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  20. #17
    PROVE
    WTF? Did anybody say anything about "prove?" A reproducible fact does not mean prove. Get your knowledge of scientific methodology straight.

  21. #18
    Yep, that first guy lives with only about 25 others - and no more, or else the additional ones would overwhelm the capacity of that guy to feed them, someone would starve, and thus, that guy will slaughter any new born that threatens to grow his little tribe any bigger.

    The second guy lives with about 300 million other people - he provided farm land that grows food at a ratio to the farmer's consumption by about 1,000 to 1 ... the other 999 people then go out and build and produce other goods that -repeated over and over- increase the lifestyle prosperity and health of the other 1,000 ... and this is repeated all over the country - ending up with a prosperous, vibrant, growing nation

    Yep, go right ahead and join the first guy -- good luck and happy hunting!

    I'll salute the second one
    Last edited by Black Flag; 03-03-2012 at 11:20 AM.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by furface View Post
    WTF? Did anybody say anything about "prove?" A reproducible fact does not mean prove. Get your knowledge of scientific methodology straight.
    Reproducible fact would be showing that you multiple times posted in this thread promoting class warfare which in my ethical beliefs is unethical. It is one group of people trying to say their ethics are the way and anyone not doing it their way is unethical.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    That certainly is an elitist simplified version of reality.

    Quickly I can compile a list of Physical Risks for janitorial work that outweigh "business" Risks associated with being a CEO:

    Falls; Broken Bones
    Chemical Burns
    Brain Damage from Inhalation
    Lung and Eye Irritation
    Back Injury
    Bio Hazards, Blood, Urine, Feces
    Damage Liability
    Security Responsibilities
    Electrical Hazards
    Muscle and Joint Damage

    When is the last time as CEO you've read an MSDS?

    A CEO takes risks with other peoples careers and corporate bank accounts to determine whether he'll make $250,000 or $25,000,000 this year.

    A Janitor takes risks with his own health and public safety to determine if he'll make $25,000 or.... get fired.

    Clearly it is not risk that determines the ever rising 200:1 CEO to Janitorial pay ratio in the US.

    may cause permanent reproductive harm,

    presence
    How much do you think I should pay my janitor to clean my place? And why should I care what you think I should pay? The janitor is free to negotiate with me, or go look for other work, or become his own CEO.
    The MSDS is the janitor's responsibility. He is responsible for his own safety.

  24. #21
    Reproducible fact would be showing that you multiple times posted in this thread promoting class warfare which in my ethical beliefs is unethical.
    Actually, a more accurate version of this statement is:

    In my view you multiple times posted in this thread promoting class warfare which in my ethical beliefs is unethical.
    Dumbassery != science

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by furface View Post
    Actually, a more accurate version of this statement is:



    Dumbassery != science
    Morals and ethics are not science. Get over it. Ethics cannot be a fact.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  26. #23
    On a legal level I have no problem with someone making lots of money so long as it was not the result of bribery, bailouts, illegally stashing money overseas, that kinda crap.

    On a moral level, I believe in being charitable, for someone to rake in billions while other are starving is disgusting, I'm not talking about the lazy bums who just won't work, I'm talking about laying off 30,000 people but then building yourself a 100M dollar house, again, not illegal, but definitely sickening to me.
    Golden Rule? Booooo. Go back to Texas!

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Butchie View Post
    On a legal level I have no problem with someone making lots of money so long as it was not the result of bribery, bailouts, illegally stashing money overseas, that kinda crap.

    On a moral level, I believe in being charitable, for someone to rake in billions while other are starving is disgusting, I'm not talking about the lazy bums who just won't work, I'm talking about laying off 30,000 people but then building yourself a 100M dollar house, again, not illegal, but definitely sickening to me.
    So you hate carpenters, concrete makers, window makers, flooring and roofing guys, landscaper, etc.?

    The issue with envy - as you have demonstrated - is that is it so short-sighted.

    Do you truly believe that a billionaire's money is not doing something to improve YOUR life and the lives of everyone else around you?

    You are so hung up on envy of what other people have, you blind yourself to social good wealth provides to everyone around you.

    You live well because "billionaires" make billions.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Flag View Post
    You live well because "billionaires" make billions.
    This is only true in a system of honest money. With our system of counterfeiting billionaires are chosen through privilege. They did not earn it. They do not benefit society as a whole.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Morals and ethics are not science. Get over it. Ethics cannot be a fact.
    It is true that the Scientific method is value-free, but there is voluminous literature on ethics in science (especially biology and medical science). i.e. http://www.files.chem.vt.edu/chem-ed/ethics/
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    This is only true in a system of honest money. With our system of counterfeiting billionaires are chosen through privilege. They did not earn it. They do not benefit society as a whole.
    Some do still make billions honestly, but you're on to something there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    This is only true in a system of honest money. With our system of counterfeiting billionaires are chosen through privilege. They did not earn it. They do not benefit society as a whole.
    Prove that they did not earn it.
    Did they put a gun to your head and steal it?
    If so, call the cops.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Flag View Post
    Prove that they did not earn it.
    Did they put a gun to your head and steal it?
    If so, call the cops.
    We have proved plenty of times on this forum that "elastic" money is counterfeiting of money and unconstitutional fraud.

    Alan Greenspan tells us,
    "In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the 'hidden' confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights." - Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom
    A study of money proves it. "The Mystery of Banking" by Murray N. Rothbard

    I'm not calling the cops. Calling the cops will get you killed.

    What we are doing is exposing how they are stealing through irredeemable currency inflation, the income tax, and capital gains tax.

    That is why Ron Paul is becoming so popular. When we get a critical mass of people who understand the difference between sound money and unsound currency, then we'll get our audit, and end to the Fed, and perhaps get some of the criminals behind bars.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Some do still make billions honestly, but you're on to something there.
    I agree. But it is a very very small number of $billionaires earned their money through honest effort. Kudos to those who have, but most have stolen it through the dishonest monetary system of counterfeiting theft and war economics of democide.

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