My relatives make 20k a year, and live better lifestyles than me making 100k

[jclay2]

Sorry op, I feel like to many people are getting sidetracked and not focusing on the real issue. The real issue is that a huge portion of the populace is sucking tens of thousands of dollars out of the system without puting anything back in. That is the problem, period. All of the posters here asking you to release your w2 and quicken budget summary are just serving as a distraction. Instead of focusing on the 30-40% cream off the top that the Government steals, people are questioning your 10% tithes to the church.

[onlyrp]

Sorry op, I feel like to many people are getting sidetracked and not focusing on the real issue. The real issue is that a huge portion of the populace is sucking tens of thousands of dollars out of the system without puting anything back in. That is the problem, period. All of the posters here asking you to release your w2 and quicken budget summary are just serving as a distraction. Instead of focusing on the 30-40% cream off the top that the Government steals, people are questioning your 10% tithes to the church.

why should we take his word for it? he already admitted he didn't itemize his deductions, which is why he's taxed to the max when he didn't have to. I am not questioning his tithing, just wondering why he's complaining when he says he "cheerfully" gives.

[onlyrp]

If I had to pay 20% to student loans and 10% to the church, I'd be only left with like a thousand at the end of the month I'm guessing.

and by what standard is that worse than somebody who makes $20,000 a year? He's still not telling us

[Noclone]

That's a good strategy... but what about the chemtrails??

I keed, I keed.

You mean the chemicals from acid rain? That's a whole other issue.

[Steven Douglas]

The OP has basically been conscripted into involuntary servitude to nameless/faceless others from January through the middle of April. It's starting to make sense to me now why the IRS has a mid-April filing deadline.why?

Why not June or December?

I thought it was obvious - and even obvious that I was being facetious. If 30% of your earnings go to taxes in a year, it means that you are laboring for the first 30% of each year (just under four months, or right around April 15th) exclusively for whatever and whomever benefits from those taxes.

[seekingliberty]

Sorry op, I feel like to many people are getting sidetracked and not focusing on the real issue. The real issue is that a huge portion of the populace is sucking tens of thousands of dollars out of the system without puting anything back in. That is the problem, period. All of the posters here asking you to release your w2 and quicken budget summary are just serving as a distraction. Instead of focusing on the 30-40% cream off the top that the Government steals, people are questioning your 10% tithes to the church.

I agree! I completely understand your frustration at the system. I do agree though that you should be itemizing and taking as many deductions as possible.

What he chooses to spend his money on should be no one's business. I would think that being on a Ron Paul forum, he would get more sympathy for him feeling abused by the system. After all, Ron Paul's philosophy does advocate for self responsibility and not having the govt take care of able people.

Now, I do agree that maybe he should track where his money is going since he claims to live so frugal but I'm not going to criticize him for choosing to pay off bills, tithe to his Church and eat healthier foods. We eat organic foods (researching our food supply is what brought me to Paul. It's not a liberal issue, anyone that eats should be concerned about it!) but it really doesn't cost much more than when we ate conventional foods and ate out all the time. We don't buy the convenience foods though since it's still not that good for you even if it is organic and they are so much more expensive than buying whole foods and preparing from scratch. We just buy our foods in bulk so it is cheaper than buying smaller packages. We don't shop at whole foods since there is not one close by and the one time we went, we weren't that impressed.

I can kind of understand how he could say that they live better than him. Taking into consideration a lot of their budget is coming from the government they don't have to put out the same work load but they get to do more (even though it seems like he probably could afford to do all the extra stuff that they do, but he has to work to pay for it). He has made choices to be a responsible adult and others that aren't so responsible get a free ride. I too get frustrated, especially after being at the grocery store behind someone in line that is buying a cart full of convenience foods (more costly), a pile of steaks, loads of soda, cookies, crackers and other items and whip out their ebt card to pay for it. Then they get rung up for the bottles of hard alcohol, cigs and cases of beer to which they pay cash for.

[asurfaholic]

This country sucks. I get so frustrated at times that I find myself wishing for a collapse in hopes that the welfare freebies go away. I just did my taxes, and had conversations--in one case, a heated argument--with family who did taxes too. Here is modern Amerika for you.

My wife and I are pulling in 85k - 100k a year. Because we "make so much," we do not qualify for government handouts. Between federal, state and local taxes, 30%+ of our income goes to government right off the bat. Then over 20% goes to student loans. We live in a nice two-bedroom apartment and can afford to eat healthy food (Whole Foods, organics, etc). But we are not rich--we have not been on vacation in almost four years; my wife has wanted/needed a new Macbook for a year but we can't afford one; we buy most of our clothes from the thrift store; we have only been out to eat two times since September; we never pay money for entertainment such as concerts, football games, movie theaters, etc.

Two different sets of relatives of mine make around 20k a year. In both families the wife does not work, only the husband. One of them makes like $10 an hour at a big-box store, the other probably makes $12ish at a hospital. One family is expecting a third child, the other the second. This means that both families get enough tax credits so that they get way more money than they pay in--one is getting almost $10k "back" this April. Whereas I have to pay my own medical bills, these guys get Medicaid; and for all I know are on food stamps and who knows what else. Both families seem to eat out as much as they want, pay for entertainment, and in the last 6 months have gone on vacation.

In short, because our government is playing Robbin Hood, we have relatives and families in my church who make a fraction of what we make, but live better lifestyles than we do.

When you are focusing on what everyone else has, then you lose sight on the things that really matter. You have a family that needs your love and support. Stop worrying about the people who in your mind are getting out easy, and be thankful for what you have. In my experience, the low rate jobs are thankless jobs, and getting significant respect is really hard to come by. If you and your wife have good jobs, then you probably have good, well respected positions in your community. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor...

[brushfire]

Who is that John Galt?

He's that guy from Wall Drug.

[mojokabobo]

I'm sorry, I have not taken the time to read through all of this extensive thread, so I am not sure if I'm repeating something here...

I want to start by saying that I recognize that the way the system is set up that it is sometimes more beneficial to make less money, because the less money you make, the more social support you will receive; because of this, sometimes it does hurt to move up the pay scale. I recognize that.

There is something interesting to the OP's situation though.. it is fundamentally different than my own, lol. My wife earned her degree in 2007. Between 2003 and 2007 I worked full time, while she worked part time and went through college. Between 2007 and December of 2012, I went to school and worked part time while she worked full time. Because we offset our schoolings, we both were able to graduate essentially debt free. I paid off the only 2000 dollar loan I had to take last month. For posterity, I would like to note that the only year that I filed for grants (pell grants) was my final year of college, as we were getting strapped for cash at that time since we had recently invested a hefty amount of our savings into buying a house (we were able to put down 75k of savings, 25k I had amassed between 2003 and 2009, and 50k my wife had amassed and inherited (half of which was from her father dying)).

So.. here we are... 9 years into our relationship and we do not have any college loans, we are paying off only about 30k more in house loans (sitting pretty at 315 a month), have about 1k left of our hospital bill from our first child in April, we have never (though we qualified) taken food stamps, WIC, medicare, etc.. and our combined yearly income sits at around 40k (my wife didn't really accept a job in her degree field, more something that she just enjoyed doing, and that had great health insurance and a good daycare plan... those of course, are called offsetting costs... I, of course, am just beginning in my field). On top of that, we have 12k liquid between various savings and checkings (most spoken for, but not yet spent ie insurance house taxes etc), 20k ROTH, 2 other retirement accounts, and probably about 10k in valuables amassed.

Sir, if you and your wife are making 100k a year, and you are in debt... you $#@!ed up somewhere along the line.

[AceNZ]

Tipping is charity, it's completely voluntary too.

You really equate tipping and charity?

Tipping is a reward for a job well done; it's payment for services rendered. Just because it's voluntary doesn't make it charity.

Charity is giving the unearned to people for no reason other than they need it.

[Toureg89]

Don't you think if you chose not to give to charity you'd be able to afford a laptop for yourself?
So you make choices, there is no reason you are getting less than the families making $20,000 a year. Even with all the benefits. I've heard these stories before, nothing is stopping you from taking a pay cut if you are so confident you can qualify for handouts and save money, be better off.

this. if you desire more and better things (might i add, Whole Foods is pretty luxurious of a extra already), you earned your money, spot giving 10% of it away to charity. give 1%, or 5%, or 8%. with an extra 2,000$, (8% instead of 10% of 100K$/year), you can afford to buy a new laptop AND go out to eat.

as a broke person myself who badly mismanaged his income by spending it on unnecessary (everything besides a rifle and a pistol) firearms, i made up by skimping on my laptop, which works, albeit with duct tape, super glu, and ubuntu.

if you desire more, manage you money so that MORE OF IT GOES TO YOU. complaining about something you can't change (tax rates) instead of something you can (how you spend what you are left), although justified, isn't going to help you get what luxuries you want. and fyi, i get my clothes from the thrift store as well.

[PaulConventionWV]

yes, but nobody is born with a house. So unless they are inheriting a house, they'll always be paying rent or mortgage, typically 10 years minimum (and that's a VERY conservative estimate, 25 years is realistic)

But you said just for living. If they pay it off, then they are not in debt. I guess if you are given a house then you can avoid that altogether, but I was making the distinction between renting indefinitely and actually building equity as you paid off something that you had claim to. Yes, most people are in debt for finding a place to live at some point in their life unless they have enough money to just pay cash up front for a house, but I really don't see why you thought that was an important point. It's just a part of life.

[Johnny Appleseed]

just think how well you could live only making 5k a year

[PaulConventionWV]

The guy's not looking for "sympathy." He resents studying, borrowing, and working his butt off so that others can loaf. I'm surprised we're so divided here. I don't think the welfare state has much to fear, with people bickering about so many peripheral issues.

We all know about the welfare state. It's no secret. We're not complaining about the guy thinking he's worse off for having to support others. It's an atrocity that we have to live in a system like that, but if you come on here saying you have it so bad and exaggerating all these things then letting us know that you voluntarily give away some of your money and don't even try to get some of the tax breaks you can, then we're going to say "Dude, why did you just tell us that?"

He's not reporting on the dangers of the welfare state. He IS looking for sympathy. It's pretty obvious because he complains about the things he can't do with his money and goes over all the details of how poor people can do those things without thinking that he could be doing those things if he managed his finances better. We're not going to cry for him just because he gets screwed with taxes. Yeah, most people do and we all know it, but he has no excuse for not living better than he does with that kind of income when many of us, myself included, could probably clean up nicely with that kind of money.

[PaulConventionWV]

I agree! I completely understand your frustration at the system. I do agree though that you should be itemizing and taking as many deductions as possible.

What he chooses to spend his money on should be no one's business.

That's just it, though. He CHOSE to come on here and TELL US how he spends his money. That's why we're not going to throw a huge pity party for him just yet.

[iGGz]

\/\/O\/\/

[moostraks]

We all know about the welfare state. It's no secret. We're not complaining about the guy thinking he's worse off for having to support others. It's an atrocity that we have to live in a system like that, but if you come on here saying you have it so bad and exaggerating all these things then letting us know that you voluntarily give away some of your money and don't even try to get some of the tax breaks you can, then we're going to say "Dude, why did you just tell us that?"

He's not reporting on the dangers of the welfare state. He IS looking for sympathy. It's pretty obvious because he complains about the things he can't do with his money and goes over all the details of how poor people can do those things without thinking that he could be doing those things if he managed his finances better. We're not going to cry for him just because he gets screwed with taxes. Yeah, most people do and we all know it, but he has no excuse for not living better than he does with that kind of income when many of us, myself included, could probably clean up nicely with that kind of money.

I took his posts the same way you did fwiw.

[Steven Douglas]

"Tips are gifts and therefore are not taxable."
Olk v. United States, February 18, 1975, Las Vegas, Nevada.

The federal government's response: Pass legislation making gifts taxable - end of discussion.

This is just like HR 1098, the Competing Currencies bill that Ron Paul introduced, as it takes rights and powers we already had by default under the Constitution, but were later eroded, abridged, or taken away entirely by legislation (usually under the widely abused "Commerce" and "Necessary and Proper" clauses, or worse yet - Executive Branch edicts).

Ron Paul's response: Pass legislation that explicitly spells out what was once taken for granted, and didn't need to be:

[MelissaWV]

iGGz why the hell is that your sig? :>

I was all set to agree with you, but then that.

[onlyrp]

But arent cash gifts taxable? Albiet at different rate than income?

char·i·ty /ˈCHaritē/
Noun:
The voluntary giving of help, typically money, to those in need.
Help or money given in this way.

----

With the extremely low wages that waiters/waitresses make, I consider them in need of addition money. They need tips.

Tipping isn't a payment for services rendered. My bill is what I pay for services rendered.

Show me documentation that states it needs to be unearned. I guess since the IRS says you can't claim it, then it isn't so?

What about for business expenses where tips can be deducted?

I honestly don't care either way, but I do disagree with the IRS.

And tips shouldn't be taxed in the first place because they aren't payment for services rendered.

[iGGz]

\/\/O\/\/

[John F Kennedy III]

Yeah, I used to think the same thing. It's amazing how your expenses adjust to fit your income.

10 years ago, I only made 1/4 of what I do now, but I had just about the same possessions. Of course, now I have a family that I'm supporting. Trust me, if you go from making $25K to $100K, you won't even notice it. You'll be just as strapped as ever.

That's crazy. It has to be the added dependants plus higher tax bracket, right?

[MelissaWV]

That's crazy. It has to be the added dependants plus higher tax bracket, right?

That, and the fact that most parents will suddenly buy their kids literally hundreds of dollars worth of crap in order to be just "average" parents. Gimme, gimme, gimme. Most elementary-aged kids I come into contact with have televisions in their rooms, and cellphones once they are young teens. All of these things for them, but no jobs.

[AceNZ]

char·i·ty /ˈCHaritē/
Noun:
The voluntary giving of help, typically money, to those in need.
Help or money given in this way.

----

With the extremely low wages that waiters/waitresses make, I consider them in need of addition money. They need tips.

WHY do you think wait-staff are paid low wages? It's because they are told to expect to earn part of what their take-home in the form of tips.

How do you know they actually NEED those extra earnings? Maybe they're working for fun, and living in a plush home with the parents or living off of a trust fund. Maybe they're a co-owner of the restaurant. Working as wait-staff by itself does not indicate need, any more than working in any other profession does.

Tipping isn't a payment for services rendered. My bill is what I pay for services rendered.

Relatively little of what you pay in your bill goes to the wait-staff. The supposed purpose of a semi-optional tip (tips aren't truly 100% optional) is to encourage better service: worker harder/better and earn more; treat me better, and earn more. It's not if you need more, earn more. In the thousands of times I've eaten out, I've never spoken with a waitress about how much she needs.

Show me documentation that states it needs to be unearned.

The key is in the word GIVE in the definition. Charity is a gift, which means no strings attached, which means unearned.

[carclinic]

Yeah, I used to think the same thing. It's amazing how your expenses adjust to fit your income.

10 years ago, I only made 1/4 of what I do now, but I had just about the same possessions. Of course, now I have a family that I'm supporting. Trust me, if you go from making $25K to $100K, you won't even notice it. You'll be just as strapped as ever.

I make $35,000 a year and thank God I am over paying my mortage and my car is paid off, and no student loan debt anymore. I think it is mainly lifestyle that determines these things. Then again, I owe the government money for taxes because I own a business.

[onlyrp]

I make $35,000 a year and thank God I am over paying my mortage and my car is paid off, and no student loan debt anymore. I think it is mainly lifestyle that determines these things. Then again, I owe the government money for taxes because I own a business.

Good to hear. Everybody owes the government taxes unless they're disabled or dirt poor. What kind of business do you run?

[carclinic]

Good to hear. Everybody owes the government taxes unless they're disabled or dirt poor. What kind of business do you run?

Auto repair. Car Clinic is the company and hence the username, I had another handle here until I was banned for making a joke about Huntsman's daughters.

God has been very good to me, but due to the unknown nature of business (after all cars have to break, I can't just break them!) I have anxiety like anyone. I live a very simple lifestyle though. I don't have TV or internet at home, sorta to motivate me to stay at work lol.

[iGGz]

\/\/O\/\/

[tbone717]

I am coming in late here, so I do not know if it has been mentioned, but it is very advisable for most people to find a way to incorporate. Corporations buy things, then pay taxes on their profits. Individuals pay taxes on their income and they buy things with the money left over. There is a huge tax advantage for those that can incorporate and have a good tax lawyer that knows the system. A friend of mine owns a bar/restaurant and is incorporated. All of his possessions (car, computers, home, furnishings, etc) are owned by the corporation, he is a low paid employee. We are in the process of setting this up for ourselves this year, and I think we will wind up living a lot better.

[heavenlyboy34]

Tipping is charity, it's completely voluntary too.

"tip" means "to improve service". It's not charity-it's appreciation for good service and incentive for improved service in the future. (aka, a gratuity)