My relatives make 20k a year, and live better lifestyles than me making 100k

[onlyrp]

Maybe you don't mind waiting 15 minutes for a waitress to get to you, but most people want you at their table within one minute to get their drink order. If you're not there in 5, they'll either go complain or they'll get up and leave. And silverware... yeah you gotta go back in the back and pester the dishwasher to collect it and run it through. Half the time, you have to separate it and put it through yourself and then rack it up separating the spoons, knives, and forks, then take it to the front and put it in the bins, and then wrap it all while at the same time 2 new tables were just sat, foods up for 2 tables, one wants dessert and another wants a check. Then you go to get the drink order, come back to find there's no glasses, so then you gotta go back make sure they've been run through the dishwasher and then carry the 30lb container to the front. In that time, one of your tables is pissed because they're food is STILL sitting in the window and the other's dessert order is up. It's not this lazy slacker kind of job that you think it is. NO ONE, even homeless people would or could do it for $3/hr. And if you want some toothless alcoholic with hepatitis serving your food, good luck.

Besides I think waiting tables is much more a free market principle. Instead of a guaranteed government mandated minimum wage, you get what you earn. You do a good job, you get paid more. And you also take the risk of getting stiffed. All part of the job.

I have to wonder though how much of other people's spit (or other gross thing) you've eaten because there are some nasty servers out there. If you're a known non-tipper, there are those who will stoop to that.

5 minutes is fine with me, if they think that's too much, I wouldn't go there again, I wouldn't quite get up and leave. As for utensils, the fact your establishment can't afford or isn't willing to have them prepared ahead of the day, that you'd even have such problems, says a lot about their cost vs benefit analytical ability. I never said it's lazy slacker, but labor does not equal value either. Like you said, you're only paid $3 an hour, so what's wrong with having another person split your work? Are you afraid you'd not make enough tips?

I've not gotten sick before, so whatever I eaten hasn't hurt me yet.

[tttppp]

They've never seen how hard I worked then. When you're working 6 tables at once and doing all the stuff for them (drinks, salad, bread, soup, order taking, food bringing, refills) as well as your behind the counter duties (stocking glasses, wrapping silverware, filling salad cases, stocking everything else) and then bussing and cleaning your own tables, it would get HECTIC. Then you have to find time to turn ring the order up to give them the check which takes several minutes using the touchscreen computer. All while two tables are waving glasses for refills, one's food is up, one wants dessert, and you just got sat a new table that you've got to take silverware and get their drink order. Anyone who think all waitstaff does is take their order and bring them food has no clue what actually goes on in a restaurant. And I absolutely LOVED that job. Good exercise and decent money for a single mom (no welfare) who was also going to college at the same time.
Currently I work 2 jobs and 1 of them is working minimum wage ($7.70/hr) at Wendy's. I bust my ass at that job too. I get pissed off because I end up doing twice the work of people half my age because they're all a bunch of lazy entitled little snots who are compelled to text every 5 seconds... and I still get paid exactly the same as them. There are no raises because our store is a small low profit store. Become a shift manager and you get a whopping $.70 an hour more. I was a manger until I realized how absolutely worthless that was.
There have been people who've lost their jobs in the steel industry and the coal mines who've come in to work at Wendy's and quit within a few weeks because they couldn't hack it. It wasn't that it was beneath them, they just couldn't keep up and remember the list of 20some things that were their responsibilities. And honestly, it really is sucky thankless job.

I never said waiters don't work hard. I just said I haven't seen a waiter better than the staff I used to run. I'm not bashing waiters, I'm bashing the managers of the restaurants for not managing their wait staff properly. You don't need a system of tips to manage your wait staff. Tips don't manage waiters, the restaurant owners do.

[tttppp]

Maybe you don't mind waiting 15 minutes for a waitress to get to you, but most people want you at their table within one minute to get their drink order. If you're not there in 5, they'll either go complain or they'll get up and leave. And silverware... yeah you gotta go back in the back and pester the dishwasher to collect it and run it through. Half the time, you have to separate it and put it through yourself and then rack it up separating the spoons, knives, and forks, then take it to the front and put it in the bins, and then wrap it all while at the same time 2 new tables were just sat, foods up for 2 tables, one wants dessert and another wants a check. Then you go to get the drink order, come back to find there's no glasses, so then you gotta go back make sure they've been run through the dishwasher and then carry the 30lb container to the front. In that time, one of your tables is pissed because they're food is STILL sitting in the window and the other's dessert order is up. It's not this lazy slacker kind of job that you think it is. NO ONE, even homeless people would or could do it for $3/hr. And if you want some toothless alcoholic with hepatitis serving your food, good luck.

Besides I think waiting tables is much more a free market principle. Instead of a guaranteed government mandated minimum wage, you get what you earn. You do a good job, you get paid more. And you also take the risk of getting stiffed. All part of the job.

I have to wonder though how much of other people's spit (or other gross thing) you've eaten because there are some nasty servers out there. If you're a known non-tipper, there are those who will stoop to that.

Why don't the restaurant managers just pay you what your worth? If customers come in just to see you, then you should have enough value to demand a higher wage. A good manager would pay his high performing employees better.

[Steven Douglas]

I never said it's lazy slacker, but labor does not equal value either.

I would qualify that with "labor does not necessarily equate to value". If you value it, and freely pay for it as such, then it does have value, or it wouldn't be paid.

Like you said, you're only paid $3 an hour, so what's wrong with having another person split your work? Are you afraid you'd not make enough tips?

Not "afraid that", so much as "fully aware that". Economic reality, not emotion. That IS where the free market kicks in, in a way that no restaurant sandbox market owner can control. It also disproves anyone's notion that servers are somehow being "fully paid" at $3 at hour.

At $3 an hour, you can afford LOTS of staff. Hell, $12 an hour, and I can have four people slaving away for me? Why not PACK the restaurant full of such help? Just surround every table with willing servants, and spoil your customers. The service would be both cheap and off the hook!

The answer: They couldn't attract help at $3 an hour without those tipping opportunities. In fact, try to open a "NO TIPPING" restaurant, where tipping is politely discouraged as being against restaurant policy. Assure your customers that your help staff is already "fully paid". Now try to hire a single server at that price. And good luck with that, as you'll get no takers - at least not a single one worth a damn. It's self-correcting and already works that way anyway, with restaurants that over-staff their servers. A server who could have waited on five tables now has only one, and leaves, because the reality of the numbers dictates that it is not economically feasible to stay.

[onlyrp]

I would qualify that with "labor does not necessarily equate to value". If you value it, and freely pay for it as such, then it does have value, or it wouldn't be paid.



Not "afraid that", so much as "fully aware that". Economic reality, not emotion. That IS where the free market kicks in, in a way that no restaurant sandbox market owner can control. It also disproves anyone's notion that servers are somehow being "fully paid" at $3 at hour.

At $3 an hour, you can afford LOTS of staff. Hell, $12 an hour, and I can have four people slaving away for me? Why not PACK the restaurant full of such help? Just surround every table with willing servants, and spoil your customers. The service would be both cheap and off the hook!

The answer: They couldn't attract help at $3 an hour without those tipping opportunities. In fact, try to open a "NO TIPPING" restaurant, where tipping is politely discouraged as being against restaurant policy. Assure your customers that your help staff is already "fully paid". Now try to hire a single server at that price. And good luck with that, as you'll get no takers - at least not a single one worth a damn. It's self-correcting and already works that way anyway, with restaurants that over-staff their servers. A server who could have waited on five tables now has only one, and leaves, because the reality of the numbers dictates that it is not economically feasible to stay.

Yes, it's being aware, and the fact anybody knows that, says it all. That they have just enough work to make it worth their time, or else they'd not have enough tips, or they'd not do their job the way they do, which is their choice, whatever the alternative may be. I'm sure my message won't dent enough people, so why waste my money? If I hurt somebody enough that they quit, good. If I don't, I save my money anyway, that's the advantage of having the dollar in your hand. One thing the waiter/waitress can't deny, is that they don't have better options, and nobody is forcing them to work where they do.

[Steven Douglas]

That they have just enough work to make it worth their time, or else they'd not have enough tips, or they'd not do their job the way they do, which is their choice, whatever the alternative may be. I'm sure my message won't dent enough people, so why waste my money?

Sure, and choice is a two-way street. If you're identified as a cheap skate - they guy who shows up to the party for the freebies - it makes complete sense if they give you standard or substandard service. That isn't determined only at the end, as many suppose. It comes out in other ways. Servers aren't stupid. The good ones can read people quite well, and can sense how they are being treated, as human beings, versus how that is likely to translate into tips.

If I hurt somebody enough that they quit, good. If I don't, I save my money anyway...

You were never paying that money anyway, and like I said, if that's telegraphed, and you're a known stiffer, you have choices, they have choices. Everybody has choices.

I typically get amazing service at restaurants, but it's not because of the tips. It goes beyond that, because I treat servers with matter-of-fact kindness, dignity and respect (things that don't cost a thing). That's no guarantee for them that I'm a tipper, but it's a probability to them based on their experience. And even if I'm not, at the very least I'm not a tight-fisted asshole who isn't enjoyable to serve at any price.

...that's the advantage of having the dollar in your hand. One thing the waiter/waitress can't deny, is that they don't have better options, and nobody is forcing them to work where they do.

That "dollar in hand" advantage is an illusion that only carries so far. One thing I've observed in life - it is far more costly in the long run to be an asshole; especially when esteeming others (e.g., "you don't have better options anyway, and nobody is forcing you, but I still expect you to jump for the plum I never dangled, bitch.").

Some have enough dollars in hand to make up the difference (a difference they rarely experience or notice by contrast). There are people who reckon everything by money costs alone, and many who believe they have "bought" the right to be an asshole to certain others. And it's true. In many cases they have done just that. That does not mean, however, that it does not come at a cost - only that the asshole can afford it.

You think you've saved a buck by not tipping, and you're right. But generally, in the long run, you get exactly what you paid for - and expected - in a misery loves company sort of way. You don't care if the server quits her job, and the server doesn't care if you dry up and blow away. It all evens out in the long run, and the service itself is not necessarily fungible, one to the next. The same person waiting on you may a completely different person, giving completely different service, when waiting on me. I factor that in, knowing that one thing scarcer than money is life itself - the time we spend on Earth. You walk out with a dollar in hand, food in your gut, and a server who hopes you never come back (and in many cases, an owner who also doesn't care). I walk out as I walked in. Happy. And they're always happy to see me return, and it's not just because I tip.

[Aden]

Hey guys, I have not read this thread since the day I made it. I am too busy in IRL to go over this right now. So to all the people who PMd me asking questions and what not, I might address them next week when the schedule cools down.

[VoluntaryAmerican]

Yes, I do believe their service is worthless, at least, worthless above what they are already paid and nothing I can't stand up and do myself. Write my order on a piece of paper? I can do it. Go pick up my order from the kitchen? No problem, it's my meal, I'll gladly do it for free too.

57 seconds in.

[Indy Vidual]

...so that I can adopt it and save more money myself.

You mentioned Whole foods and their prices are almost criminal. Some of the Indy grocery stores (ie. Spanish, "European", etc), used to be "just plain cheap", but many of them are adding organic sections now, and even 'natural' meats.

[LBennett76]

Sure, nobody is forcing them to work there. But keep in mind, if they weren't there, nobody would be taking your order and getting your food, etc. The establishments simply wouldn't exist.
And if the manager was paying me the $17/hr I was making, he wouldn't be able to cover the cost of what I and the 20 other waitresses who worked there were worth.
Oh, and the silverware thing. That is one of the jobs of the waitress. Always has been. There is no position in the store created to do that and nobody else in any position would do it. Who wants to stand around waiting for silverware to wrap (since there is a finite amount and it is washed multiple times all day long and rewrapped)? No manager in their right mind would pay for that when the $3/hr person can do it in their duties.