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Thread: Anarchy Draws Near as Greece Flirts With Default

  1. #1

    Anarchy Draws Near as Greece Flirts With Default




    The debt chickens are coming home to roost in Greece, and the hen house is collapsing.


    Anarchy Draws Near as Greece Flirts With Default


    Charles Scaliger | The New American
    14 February 2012
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  3. #2
    Chaos draws near as the inevitable effects of statism are played out. Anarchy, asked to comment, replied "I don't have anything to do with this."
    "You cannot solve these problems with war." - Ron Paul

  4. #3
    The debt chickens are coming home to roost in Greece, and the hen house is collapsing. As the hard-pressed Greek parliament convened to vote on an enormously unpopular austerity measure insisted upon by international bankers with the power to prolong Greece’s agony with another bailout, furious mobs set Athens ablaze and fought pitched battles with police.
    It's the government/police setting Athens ablaze.





    Last edited by LibertyEagle; 02-14-2012 at 08:58 AM.
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  5. #4
    Withdrawal symptoms from weening people off their addiction to credit.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mczerone View Post
    Chaos draws near as the inevitable effects of statism are played out. Anarchy, asked to comment, replied "I don't have anything to do with this."
    If Greece collapses, you'll get to see how "wonderful" Anarchy is.

    Also, you'll get to see how quickly Anarchy turns into a Dictatorship.
    Last edited by FrankRep; 02-14-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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    Ron Paul Forum's Mission Statement:

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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    It's the government/police setting Athens ablaze.
    Unfortunately that sounds all to common in world history. do you have a source you can share besides the pics?
    "Time is catching up with me." -Ron Paul

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    If Greece collapses, you'll get to see how "wonderful" Anarchy is.

    Also, you'll get to see how quickly Anarchy turns into a Dictatorship.
    The state in any form is a disease and Liberty is the both the victim and the only means to a lasting cure.

    Next time, try to include dragons and a killer meteor shower.
    Last edited by archangel689; 02-14-2012 at 01:00 PM.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple View Post
    Unfortunately that sounds all to common in world history. do you have a source you can share besides the pics?
    yeah I don't get that from the pics but it is an interesting theory.
    Those Who Do Not Move, Do Not Notice Their Chains.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by archangel689 View Post
    The state in any form is a disease and Liberty is the both the victim and the only means to a lasting cure.

    Next time, try to include dragons and a killer meteor shower.
    Anarchy doesn't always have to lead to a dictatorship, but historically, It's always always led to some form of government
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    Anarchy doesn't always have to lead to a dictatorship, but historically, It's always always led to some form of government
    Deferring to walter block:

    We cannot let this pass without comment. First of all, Holcombe is on record with the claim that government is inevitable. But if this is so, “history” cannot show any such thing. All history can do is record the past. At best, history can demonstrate that so far we have never had anarchy: We have always suffered under state rule. Consider the analogous claim: “Sunrises are inevitable, and history has shown this to be the case.” This, too, is a fallacy. If sunrises are inevitable, then history can show only that so far the sun has risen every day, but history cannot demonstrate the inevitability of this process. In contrast, it is inevitable that 2 + 2 = 4, that man acts, and that voluntary trade benefits both parties in the ex ante sense; that is, it is a logical contradiction to suppose the opposite of these assertions, and they also explain events in the real world. But here, history can only illustrate that they are true. It cannot “show” any such thing.

    Second, strictly speaking, there is and there can be no “libertarian argument for a limited government.” Limited government is simply incompatible with the libertarian nonaggression axiom. In order to more clearly see this, substitute “crime” for “government.” This should raise no objection from Holcombe, who concedes that even the best of limited governments are criminal organizations, e.g., “predators.” Is this something the true libertarian can accommodate, while still fully adhering to his principles? No, no, no. The libertarian, if he is to be logically consistent, must urge zero crime, not a small amount of it. Any crime is anathema for the libertarian. Any government, no matter how “nice,” must therefore also be rejected by the libertarian. This does not mean that 100 percent of the GDP should be devoted to the eradication of private crime and we all die of starvation. In like manner, the optimal amount of government for the libertarian—whether of the local “nice” variety or the nasty foreign counterpart—is also zero. Similarly, this does not mean it is justified to spend the entire GDP on this quest, or even to engage in it at all (there are pragmatic considerations that apply only in the latter case), but it is the only one fully compatible with libertarianism.

    To say that something—government, crime, slavery, it matters not what—is inevitable is to denigrate free will. If everyone, without exception, suddenly converted to libertarianism, on that great and glorious day there would be no government: nada, zip, none at all. Is it a logical contradiction to suppose such a situation? Of course not. So let us hear no more about the “inevitability” of evil.

    Socio-biological considerations lead us to believe not that the criminal government (a redundancy) is inevitable, but, rather, that we are hard wired for institutions of this sort through evolution. Who knows: rule by one man over another might well have had some survival value for our ancient ancestors. But we are also, some of us anyway, genetically inclined to murder, rape, and cheat, as well as to be just, invent new technologies, and love our children.

    Holcombe’s is a counsel of despair and compromise. Let us, instead, hold aloft our libertarian principles, never compromise with them, and strive, always, for liberty, full liberty. At one time in our nation’s history, slavery, too, seemed “inevitable.” Instead of opting for the softer whips and nicer slave master theory of Holcombe, we should hold out for total and complete freedom.

    We can do no better than to end with a quote from Rothbard (1973a, p. 302) in this context:
    Thus, the libertarian abolitionist of slavery, William Lloyd Garrison, was not being “unrealistic” when in the 1830s he first raised the glorious standard of immediate emancipation of the slaves. His goal was the morally proper one, and his strategic realism came in the fact that he did not expect his goal to be quickly reached. We have seen in chapter 1 that Garrison himself distinguished: “Urge immediate abolition as earnestly as we may, it will, alas! be gradual abolition in the end. We have never said that slavery would be overthrown by a single blow; that it ought to be, we shall always contend.” Otherwise, as Garrison trenchantly warned, “Gradualism in theory is perpetuity in practice.”
    Last edited by archangel689; 02-14-2012 at 02:13 PM.

  13. #11
    This + Eurocrat/Technocrats dictating to the cowardly Greek officials.

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    It's the government/police setting Athens ablaze.






  14. #12
    Some interesting graffiti from the Greek riots:


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  15. #13

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple View Post
    Unfortunately that sounds all to common in world history. do you have a source you can share besides the pics?
    Sure, but the articles are in Greek.
    ================
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  17. #15
    Government, in this case, has led to anarchy. Too much government, too many promises, too many dependents on those vanishing promises. The masses realized the complete bankruptcy and fraud that they were led to believe was progressive scientific "good government". The liars and the easily duped are now at war.

    The very reason people are rioting is so that the government will promise yet even more... If there was no government of this size and scope why would anyone riot against it? How could they?

    Greece's highway to hell was paved by lies, bad laws, welfare and good intentions, like mixed asphalt. I guess it can be safely said they are unhappy with the destination.

  18. #16
    The Greek state has serious problems. History shows that.

    They never had their finances in order and they joined the union. It looks as if they may be leaving how ever daunting that will be...



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by awake View Post
    Government, in this case, has led to anarchy. Too much government, too many promises, too many dependents on those vanishing promises. The masses realized the complete bankruptcy and fraud that they were led to believe was progressive scientific "good government". The liars and the easily duped are now at war.

    The very reason people are rioting is so that the government will promise yet even more... If there was no government of this size and scope why would anyone riot against it? How could they?

    Greece's highway to hell was paved by lies, bad laws, welfare and good intentions, like mixed asphalt. I guess it can be safely said they are unhappy with the destination.
    I thought they were rioting against becoming debt slaves to teh super banks. :x
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  21. #18

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    The Greek state has serious problems. History shows that.

    They never had their finances in order and they joined the union. It looks as if they may be leaving how ever daunting that will be...
    Well when you are tricked by lobbyists and forced by big banks is it really their fault? As for Greece having "serious problems history shows that", does that imply that its wrong when the people see that their government is not working in their best interest and the people protest? Here in Greece people have the power unlike the west and britain where tails are tucked between their legs and they bow to whatever the government orders. Only now the government is scrambling to appease the Banking overlords and its citizens simultaneously......it can't happen
    I love my country, but I fear my government

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    If Greece collapses, you'll get to see how "wonderful" Anarchy is.

    Also, you'll get to see how quickly Anarchy turns into a Dictatorship.
    I do not approve of Anachy but it is unfortunate the US is bypassing the Anarchy stage and going directly to a Dictatorship. If our government is successful, we are in for one hell of a future with or without the Anarchy stage.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    If Greece collapses, you'll get to see how "wonderful" Anarchy is.

    Also, you'll get to see how quickly Anarchy turns into a Dictatorship.
    Your simply defining anarchy as complete chaos, are you not? What I see happening in Greece is political people vying for political power. Greece is nearly 100% socialists, so how in the HELL could anarchists possibly take over as you are saying?

    Right now there is hardly a place in the world that has the potential to collapse into anarchy.

    Anarchy is something that has to exist where there are people with a philosophy of anarchism. Do you understand that? Now show me the groups in Greece who specifically have an anarchist philosophy.

    This is nothing but propaganda for those reasons I've just outline, and you should be careful not to swallow state propaganda like that. Even New Hampshire, with the highest population of people who would consider them selves in support of a government free solution, still only has a tiny number of anarchists (a minority even within the Free State Project).

    Given those kind of numbers, I'm embarrassed for anyone who laughably says that an anarchy is being set up in Greece. Laughable and wrong. If anarchy is defined as complete chaos, then sure. If anarchy is defined of a group of people with anarchist philosophy, then not even remotely close to being remotely correct.
    Last edited by centure7; 02-15-2012 at 10:10 AM.
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  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by thetruthhurtsthefed View Post
    Well when you are tricked by lobbyists and forced by big banks is it really their fault? As for Greece having "serious problems history shows that", does that imply that its wrong when the people see that their government is not working in their best interest and the people protest? Here in Greece people have the power unlike the west and britain where tails are tucked between their legs and they bow to whatever the government orders. Only now the government is scrambling to appease the Banking overlords and its citizens simultaneously......it can't happen
    Just because this is an American forum does not mean that only Americans read it.You can tell them this fairy tales but why don't you tell them the truth.

    Greece 30-40 years ago was a village.You borrowed and borrowed like there is no tomorrow ( I will not even mention all the grants the EU gave you and USA money for their bases in Greece until the USSR fell apart and the bases were moved).

    You lived like x10 beyond your means and now the time is up to pay.Although I do not approve of what the Bankers are doing to you at the moment,if you did what should have happened and that is to go bankrupt then the EU would have had no other option except to come and take the money by force.And if you do not do what the bankers say they will come and take the money by force.

    If you think that there is a scenario where you just walk away is beyond fantasy.You have 2 options either you will be slaves to the IMF or the IMF will come and take the money as they did in Libya ( this scenario is already in play by demonizing you in front of the European and international community as lazy and arrogant,also you burning German flags does not really help you).

    And don't give me that the politicians took all the money cause you just lost the 13 and 14 salary with the new deal.You got bonuses for knowing a second language and having computer skills and my favorite TO HEAT YOUR CARS IN THE WINTER.Why didn't you protest when you received 1500+ euro salary's with a minimum of 700 although you did not produce anything ? while your entire region had an average of 300-400
    Last edited by Demigod; 02-15-2012 at 10:35 AM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesTX View Post
    Withdrawal symptoms from weening people off their addiction to credit.
    "Free" money is probably the worst addiction to behold. It's effects are slow but potent; strong enough to ruin nations that can't break the habit.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    If Greece collapses, you'll get to see how "wonderful" Anarchy is.

    Also, you'll get to see how quickly Anarchy turns into a Dictatorship.
    That ^ Anarchy is a vacuum - and something always fills a vacuum.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.



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  29. #25
    Bump
    Last edited by qh4dotcom; 02-16-2012 at 09:55 AM.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by qh4dotcom View Post
    Isn't the Fed going to secretly bail out Greece?
    No. It's collection time.
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  31. #27
    How many civilizations have come and gone? I bet everyone thought it would last forever.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by mczerone View Post
    Chaos draws near as the inevitable effects of statism are played out. Anarchy, asked to comment, replied "I don't have anything to do with this."
    Haha, my sediments exactly!

    Hopefully the majority of the citizens there are well versed in austrian economics and are fans of Rothbard!

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    That ^ Anarchy is a vacuum - and something always fills a vacuum.
    Total BS. This has nothing to do with anarchy. Anarchy means "no ruler".

    Chaos is taking place in Greece, not anarchy.

    If there were no state, there would be no "vacuum" to take over. It's all in everyone's minds. If we agree that we do not own ourselves, that others can rule over us, then this cycle of violence will never end.

  34. #30
    Did anyone hear about the buildings the Greeks were burning down in Athens? So, they get a bailout and then burn buildings? Is all the bailout money going to go to rebuilding those buildings? Sounds like a winning economic formula to me!

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