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Thread: 'Shark Tank' Inventor Loses Big to 'Buy American' Fallacy

  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Are you serious?

    Where is one of those facepalm images?
    Yes, I am serious.



    Tell me how I am wrong. Tell me what is wrong or bad about unemployment other than not having money. Or better yet, tell me what is good or right about employment other than making money.
    Last edited by Tpoints; 12-05-2012 at 08:30 PM.



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  3. #92
    Member bxm042's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    It's been my experience that my "cheap Chinese shit" breaks a whole helluva lot faster than my "made in America" shit, especially tools.

    Just my 2 cents' worth...
    I would bet most of the "Made in America" stuff has a LOT of parts that are made in Japan/China/etc.

    But there's nothing wrong with buying America if you believe that 'Merica can give you a better product (which is in many cases true... but this definitely does not stand as a general rule).
    Last edited by bxm042; 12-05-2012 at 08:58 PM.
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  4. #93
    Contributing Member Henry Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    If your sole goal is to have jobs, then innovation and automation should be crimes, because efficiency ALWAYS AND ONLY leads to less employment and ALWAYS makes labor, skill less valuable. In fact, so does procreation.
    Epic fail. Innovation and automation create jobs. Those power tools that replaced the hammer and hand saw that carpenters use made his work more efficient, lowering cost and creating more demand for his services. Jobs were created in the design, developement, manufacture and sales of those power tools. Someone had to produce the tool and die equipment used in the manufacturing process of the power tools. Some one had to get electrical current to the job site. Someone had to produce the electricity. While some jobs may disappear, for example, hand filing the teeth on a hand saw blade. More are created to replace the obsolete job. Obama used your argument claiming the atm machine is costing bank tellers their jobs. He does not consider the jobs created in making the atm machines or repairing them or the software used in them or that some one must stock them. Read the chapter "The Curse of Machinery" in "Economics In One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. Of course if you are upset over the buggy builder losing his job then yes we should out law automobiles.
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  5. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    Epic fail. Innovation and automation create jobs. Those power tools that replaced the hammer and hand saw that carpenters use made his work more efficient, lowering cost and creating more demand for his services. Jobs were created in the design, developement, manufacture and sales of those power tools.
    By your logic, unemployment never happens, it's just one industry replaced by another. You are assuming that machines always need repair or the cost of repair will always justifies hiring people. You assume that having an ATM employs as many people as it unemploys, it doesn't! How often do you see an ATM being repaired, stocked and re-designed? Probably less than once a year if not less than once in 5 years. Compare that to a teller who works part time for just one year.

    "More are created to replace the obsolete job." So why would there EVER be unemployment? Let me guess? Taxes? Taxes employs collectors. Outsourcing? Outsourcing employs transportation and shipment people. You know the obvious answer, NOT more are created.
    Last edited by Tpoints; 12-05-2012 at 10:14 PM.

  6. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    If your sole goal is to have jobs, then innovation and automation should be crimes, because efficiency ALWAYS AND ONLY leads to less employment and ALWAYS makes labor, skill less valuable. In fact, so does procreation.
    I'm sure people have been arguing this since the invention of wheel. Think about what happened to all those people who made a living carrying stuff from town to town by foot with the invention of the horse and carriage!!!


    By your argument, employment should have been steadily declining since the start of the industrial revolution. It's an argument that's been continuously repeated yet has no factual basis behind it.

    Hell, there are many places in Africa that has very little innovation and automation, Employment must be through the roof over there .

  7. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bohner View Post
    I'm sure people have been arguing this since the invention of wheel. Think about what happened to all those people who made a living carrying stuff from town to town by foot with the invention of the horse and carriage!!!

    By your argument, employment should have been steadily declining since the start of the industrial revolution. It's an argument that's been continuously repeated yet has no factual basis behind it.

    Hell, there are many places in Africa that has very little innovation and automation, Employment must be through the roof over there .
    Yes, employment HAS been steadily declining since industrial revolution. That is, if you define employment as requiring labor. (and taking out the obvious ups and downs with stock market and war) Similarly, undeveloped areas are having exploding demands of employment, if you define struggling and fighting to survive as employment. On the same token, if those areas are "unemployed" based on your modern definition of having a bank account set up to take benefits and paycheck, then sure, they'd be unemployed, but the trade off is they may need little to no money to live, which is exactly my point.

    I do not think about the jobs that a wheel stole or killed, because I'm not the one who claims unemployment is bad.

    Do you perhaps consider that the only reasons industrial revolution hasn't sent employment down the drain are: population has increased, international trade has become efficient, inflation and debt has increased (meaning lots of white collar jobs were created by borrowed money), consumption and desires have increased. If we were willing to live by the standards (be in living space, food supply, education, transportation, health standard) of the 1800s, employment would be close to zero.

    Again, I will ask : What is good about employment or bad about unemployment, if you take out the concern of money?
    Last edited by Tpoints; 12-05-2012 at 11:14 PM.

  8. #97
    Contributing Member Henry Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    By your logic, unemployment never happens, it's just one industry replaced by another. You are assuming that machines always need repair or the cost of repair will always justifies hiring people. You assume that having an ATM employs as many people as it unemploys, it doesn't! How often do you see an ATM being repaired, stocked and re-designed? Probably less than once a year if not less than once in 5 years. Compare that to a teller who works part time for just one year.

    "More are created to replace the obsolete job." So why would there EVER be unemployment? Let me guess? Taxes? Taxes employs collectors. Outsourcing? Outsourcing employs transportation and shipment people. You know the obvious answer, NOT more are created.
    http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS14000000


    By your logic the increase of unemployment in this graph was caused by a sudden increase of innovation and automation. Unemployment is caused by many things. In this case the Business Cycle and Malinvestment do to the market correcting it's self, caused by artificially low interest rates. Protectionism is another cause.
    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat


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  9. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    By your logic the increase of unemployment in this graph was caused by a sudden increase of innovation and automation.
    Nope. Just because innovation and automation CAN cause unemployment, doesn't mean it's the ONLY thing that causes it.

    You gotta be kidding me, just because drinking rat poison kills you, means everybody can only die from drinking rat poison?

    Unemployment is caused by many things........... Like I EVER SAID OTHERWISE!

  10. #99

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    Back to the original topic, it looks like the inventor ended up selling the company (or going in a joint venture) with DeeZee to do the manufacturing and it is 100% produced in the United States:

    http://www.deezee.com/products/32923...nt_System.html

    "As shown on TV, the Invis-A-Rack was intended for production in the USA and the inventor, Donny McCall, would not accept anything less. Dee Zee has fulfilled that promise with 100% production in America’s heartland. Use of highest quality materials and precision manufacturing makes the Invis-A-Rack a truly American born innovation."

    So, apparently another successful American company thought it would be profitable to make the product in the United States (at least for the time being).
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  11. #100

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    Buy American fallacy? pfft.... STFU!

    Rebuilding America 5% at a time.

    http://theallamericanhome.com/
    Last edited by phill4paul; 12-05-2012 at 11:26 PM.
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  12. #101
    Contributing Member Henry Rogue's Avatar
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    Oh and I also wanted to say that i don't know if any tellers lost their jobs to ATMs. None have in my town, I see the same Tellers I always have.
    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat


    Peace.

  13. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    Oh and I also wanted to say that i don't know if any tellers lost their jobs to ATMs. None have in my town, I see the same Tellers I always have.
    Your town once had no ATM machines?

  14. #103
    Contributing Member Henry Rogue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Your town once had no ATM machines?
    Ha, yes, of course and it use to have pay phones booths. Those were replaced by cell phones. I don't know how many jobs were lost to pay phone manufacturing or repair or collecting the change, but there sure were a lot of jobs created by the cell phone industry. My wife works in that industry.Oh and we had less banks back then too.
    Last edited by Henry Rogue; 12-05-2012 at 11:47 PM.
    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat


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  15. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    Ha, yes, of course and it use to have pay phones booths. Those were replaced by cell phones. I don't know how many jobs were lost to pay phone manufacturing or repair or collecting the change, but there sure were a lot of jobs created by the cell phone industry. My wife works in that industry.
    Cell phones are not an "automation" to pay phone booths. People today with cellphones do not use their cellphones every time they would have used a pay phone. Doing so would require pay phones to be at every intersection, or people only using them at locations where there were phone booths. We both know that doesn't happen.

    Yes, there are lots of jobs created by the cellphone industry, they have to do with repair, replacement, customer service, billing and contracts. These jobs are not much different than home phone landline related jobs, the only difference is selling competing subscriptions and new hardware (hardware profits are propped up by consumption desires, and obselesence). People still buy a new cellphone every 2 years because they want to keep up with their peers, otherwise basic cellphones have always dropped in price since they were introduced.

  16. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Cell phones are not an "automation" to pay phone booths. People today with cellphones do not use their cellphones every time they would have used a pay phone.
    No, people DO use their cellphones "every time they would have used a pay phone..." and then some. It's the "and then some" (more efficient and expanded usage capability) aspect that you're claiming disqualifies it as automation, when in fact that is evidence of the effects of automation.

    Doing so would require pay phones to be at every intersection, or people only using them at locations where there were phone booths. We both know that doesn't happen.
    That's an attempt to establish a standard for automation that doesn't exist (a one-for-one locale equivalence from the past to the future).

    That is like saying that modern highways are not an automation of yesteryear's roads and trails, because today's highways lead to far more places than the old roads once did, and could not be found everywhere then in the same places they are now. We both know that they weren't, but neither is that the defining factor for automation. It is also like saying that automobiles are not an "automation" of horse-drawn carriages because people do not use their automobiles every time they would have used a horse-drawn carriage. And yet they do...and then some, due largely to automation.

    Yes, there are lots of jobs created by the cellphone industry, they have to do with repair, replacement, customer service, billing and contracts. These jobs are not much different than home phone landline related jobs, the only difference is selling competing subscriptions and new hardware (hardware profits are propped up by consumption desires, and obselesence). People still buy a new cellphone every 2 years because they want to keep up with their peers, otherwise basic cellphones have always dropped in price since they were introduced.
    All of the above is a non sequitur, wholly unrelated to the original claim that pay phones have been replaced, for the most part, by cell phones--an indisputable fact of reality that should be obvious to the casual observer. Also, there are landline-related jobs that still exist, just as there are still horsedrawn carriages in existence. So what? How they compete with one another as modes of transportation is as irrelevant to the original claim as consumer motives and buying patterns related to cell phones. The reality there is that cellphone automation has also replaced many landlines (mine included, for the past 15 years, and I had a landline for 35 years prior to that).

  17. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    No, people DO use their cellphones "every time they would have used a pay phone..." and then some. It's the "and then some" (more efficient and expanded usage capability) aspect that you're claiming disqualifies it as automation, when in fact that is evidence of the effects of automation.
    I was using automation as "replacing labor, simplifying a process". Of which "and then some" would not be. Since it is adding an opportunity of usage which the old technology couldn't, and didn't provide (thereby not replacing any labor or reducing any processes).

    That's an attempt to establish a standard for automation that doesn't exist (a one-for-one locale equivalence from the past to the future).
    Not quite. I was establishing that if the usage isn't comparable, it's not a replacement, and therefore not an automation. A rocket is not an automation to an airplane. A car is not an automation to a bicycle (not unless a car is intended to run at a bicycle speed or anybody tried to make a man powered vehicle run at a car speed).

    That is like saying that modern highways are not an automation of yesteryear's roads and trails, because today's highways lead to far more places than the old roads once did, and could not be found everywhere then in the same places they are now.
    Yes, it's exactly what I am saying. I define automation as replacing and reducing labor, where a person had to once "manually" act. Either that, or machinery and processes are simplified, thereby cutting production time.

    All of the above is a non sequitur, wholly unrelated to the original claim that pay phones have been replaced, for the most part, by cell phones--an indisputable fact of reality that should be obvious to the casual observer.
    I would argue that that's not true. Instead, pay phones in the United States were rare to begin with, and cellphones were filling the demand pay phones either couldn't or didn't want to. Anybody who's been to Taiwan will see that payphones haven't decreased, people use cellphones to answer, but not always to call. Why do they stand to use a phone booth when they can talk and walk? Because it's cheaper, more private (lacking subscriber identification). That's right, you may be surprised to find out that pay phones can be cheaper than cellphones to make phone calls, and that's probably why they haven't been replaced.

    As for "so what", I was arguing that technology, innovation, automation replaces and reduces jobs, even if they create some. Somebody argues that there's a net gain in jobs/employment from automation, I am arguing that net loss is more likely (and not that it's a bad thing).

    Let me put it this way, in response to the guy who says "I've never met a banker/teller who lost his job to an ATM". One might as "so what DID the ATM do?" One doesn't need to completely lose his job to be affected by automation. Did the ATM do things he couldn't? Did the ATM do things he can? Has his job been easier or harder because of ATMs? Is he now paid the same for less work or more for more work? If ATMs were never used in his town, would more bankers/tellers need to be employed? If you've never met a POTENTIAL teller who was never hired or interviewed because an ATM was installed to replace him in advance, does that mean they don't exist?

    This is why I pointed out that usage difference disqualifies automation, or at least in the context of unemployment. Why hasn't cellphones put pay phone workers out of business (or if they did), because pay phones were never in many places cellphones are today. Why hasn't ATMs put some tellers out of work (taking his claim at face value as true), because ATMs "did some jobs tellers won't do". If you used ATMs only during hours when tellers are not available, I guarantee you will replace zero tasks and thus reduce zero jobs of tellers. But if you used ATMs more often, even when you have a choice between a person and a machine, then some would be replaced or reduced. Only then, will you and can you say that one has "automated, replaced, reduced" another.
    Last edited by Tpoints; 12-06-2012 at 04:37 AM.

  18. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I never made that claim. However, when they can manufacture one of these truck frames at well under $100 while this guy is manufacturing his in the US for $220, what happens when they sell the Chinese versions for $199.99 and they are just about as good as the ones being made here? He can't even get his cost down to the price of the Chinese made versions..
    Again, it depends on the consumer. Again I gave you the example of the Nike shoes. People who want to buy Nikes don't care if the off brand is just as good. It could be made in the same factory.

    Yes but if you can do it here it is cheaper because you don't have to ship.
    That's true.

    You could look at it like that.. But would you prefer this guy who has a penchant for manufacturing in the US be the successful entrepreneur who brought this product to market through outsourcing, or would you rather a company that has a penchant for manufacturing overseas bring this product to market and be successful?
    You're asking me? I would seriously prefer the guy with a penchant for manufacturing in the U.S. If life was simply about who was the most "economically efficient" then I would have voted for Mitt Romney instead of Ron Paul. (Lower costs per vote). And yes, I see this as the same principle. The people saying "Oh you're creating more jobs in the U.S. by outsourcing" are full of shit. It's not just the manufacturing being outsourced. It's the call centers and the accounting and the software engineering and just about everything except point of sale and even that can be outsourced if we're talking about Internet sales. Pretty soon the only jobs left will be UPS, Walmart, hospitals and resturants. (Walmart seems immune to the whole dot.com effect). Do I want the government to get involved? No. Not except for getting out of the way of U.S. manufacturers. Would I pay more for something made in the U.S.? Absolutely!
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  19. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I am a Business Analyst for a company who actively pursues manufacturing products in China and Taiwan, our profit margin is nearly double for items manufactured overseas. If we didn't do it, our competitor would be in business and we would not. It is not our decision to manufacture overseas.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Oreck


    Toyota has assembly plants in the US, too, but the components aren't built here.
    Again, who said anything about whether all of the parts are made in the U.S.? I certainly didn't. But hey, go for it. I hope they outsource your business analyst job as well. I'm sure someone in India could do it over the Internet for 1/2 the price.

    Edit: And for the record, I wasn't attacking companies who outsource so quit being defensive! I was applauding the decision of the inventor in the OP to want to manufacture in the U.S.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 12-06-2012 at 05:17 AM.
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  20. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by weilian View Post
    hehe, well then, take it as a tip. made in america shoes and made in america clothing.
    A little out of my league, but my Wranglers and Redwings are made here too...

  21. #110
    Site Staff - Moderator Brian4Liberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    It's been my experience that my "cheap Chinese shit" breaks a whole helluva lot faster than my "made in America" shit, especially tools.

    Just my 2 cents' worth...
    When I was a kid, we had the same toaster until after I had moved out of the house. So it must have lasted over 15 years, if not more. It seems that the lifespan of toasters today is about 1-2 years.
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  22. #111
    Site Staff - Moderator Brian4Liberty's Avatar
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    Apple to Officially Build Computers in the U.S.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/benzinga...rs-in-the-u-s/
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  23. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post

    Edit: And for the record, I wasn't attacking companies who outsource so quit being defensive! I was applauding the decision of the inventor in the OP to want to manufacture in the U.S.
    I want world peace and to end starvation. APPLAUD ME!

  24. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    Epic fail. Innovation and automation create jobs.
    Taken to an extreme, this is not true. Eventually, one can expect innovation and automation to completely eliminate jobs entirely.

  25. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNothing View Post
    Taken to an extreme, this is not true. Eventually, one can expect innovation and automation to completely eliminate jobs entirely.
    exactly, because he is assuming automation always needs maintainence, deployment, and even if they do, they will always employ the same amount of people as the people that they put out of work and demand. At first, innovations and automations DO need lots of maintainence, repair and customer support, but that only lasts as long as 1) consumption is increasing 2) the quality of maintainence maintains, once it improves, repair jobs disappear too. Again, I have not once said unemployment is bad or employment is good.

  26. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingNothing View Post
    Taken to an extreme, this is not true. Eventually, one can expect innovation and automation to completely eliminate jobs entirely.
    I don't think that is the best way to think of things. Automation also opens up entirely new possibilities and with that, entirely new innovations and markets.

    You know, there were a lot of people who thought the same thing as you, back when automobiles were replacing buggies.
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  27. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    I don't think that is the best way to think of things. Automation also opens up entirely new possibilities and with that, entirely new innovations and markets.

    You know, there were a lot of people who thought the same thing as you, back when automobiles were replacing buggies.
    Do I get my question answered? Yes, I will agree that automation brings jobs with it, but do you disagree that not only do they bring in less than are replaced, but also, as quality of products increase, jobs decrease (due to lack of demand for repair and maintanence)?

    So, I hope you can answer me, since you wanted to know if I was serious. What's wrong with unemployment if money were not the concern? Or what's good about employment if money were not the concern?

  28. #117

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    If we take it to the logical conclusion, we could pretty much just sit on our asses and let robots do everything for us. We could have 99% unemployment, and still have more wealth and standard of living than now.

  29. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qdog View Post
    If we take it to the logical conclusion, we could pretty much just sit on our asses and let robots do everything for us. We could have 99% unemployment, and still have more wealth and standard of living than now.
    yes, we can. Standard of living may or may not increase, standard of living is largely subjective. Some people value free time, some people value not working, some people value variety of foods and entertainment, some people value education and medical care.

  30. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Do I get my question answered? Yes, I will agree that automation brings jobs with it, but do you disagree that not only do they bring in less than are replaced, but also, as quality of products increase, jobs decrease (due to lack of demand for repair and maintanence)?
    No, because it frees those people up to do other things.

    So, I hope you can answer me, since you wanted to know if I was serious. What's wrong with unemployment if money were not the concern? Or what's good about employment if money were not the concern?
    I'm not into Communism. But, thanks anyway.
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  31. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    No, because it frees those people up to do other things.

    I'm not into Communism. But, thanks anyway.
    Contradiction? Frees people to do other things doesn't mean they WILL be employed, just that they CAN. I'm not the one who says there's anything wrong with unemployment, unemployment is exactly that : FREES PEOPLE TO DO OTHER THINGS, not necessarily payable jobs or productive things. So again, what's wrong with unemployment or what's right with employment?

    Are you basically telling me jobs lost by automation is good, but jobs lost by offshoring is bad? There are good kinds of unemployment as well as bad kinds? Why isn't unemployment by outsourcing/offshoring "freeing people to do other things"?
    Last edited by Tpoints; 12-06-2012 at 02:56 PM.

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