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Thread: 'Shark Tank' Inventor Loses Big to 'Buy American' Fallacy

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by weilian View Post
    No straw man here. If you had addressed the rest of my post...

    Ipod/ipad.. They charged a premium even when its parts and assembly is all made overseas. Imagine it was assembled here. Imagine its parts where made here....
    There wasn't anything in the rest of the post worth addressing. It's just more straw man crap. Nobody said that every component of every product needed to be made in America. In fact I didn't even say Apple shouldn't be allowed to make iPods in China. That said, it's beyond stupid to claim, as some have in this thread, that Apple wouldn't be able to sell iPods if they weren't 100% made in China because someone else would "sell something cheaper and put them out of business" when there are already cheaper alternatives to Apple products and Apple is making record profits.
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  3. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    There wasn't anything in the rest of the post worth addressing. It's just more straw man crap. Nobody said that every component of every product needed to be made in America. In fact I didn't even say Apple shouldn't be allowed to make iPods in China. That said, it's beyond stupid to claim, as some have in this thread, that Apple wouldn't be able to sell iPods if they weren't 100% made in China because someone else would "sell something cheaper and put them out of business" when there are already cheaper alternatives to Apple products and Apple is making record profits.
    I dont know why you keep comparing a chinese made and assembled product (ipod, designed in america) with other chinese made and assembled products (may or may not be designed in america)
    Last edited by weilian; 12-05-2012 at 04:44 PM.

  4. #63

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    Its not very libertarian to support subsidising environmental damage, which is what China does but not enforcing property laws, or to support slave labour conditions.

    Its not like the outsourcing is going to countries with strong private property laws. The outsourcing is going to countries that support low production costs through tyranny.
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  5. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by weilian View Post
    I dont know why you keep comparing a chinese made and assembled product (ipod) with other chinese made and assembled products.
    Because the specific point I was making was a refutation of the claims being made that if someone could made a similar product to yours cheaper you would automagically go out of business. As for U.S. products, I've already mentioned some earlier in the thread. But again that has nothing to do with the specific point I was making. Understand now?
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  6. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Regardless of all of that, your claim that consumer purchases are made solely on the basis of cost is provably wrong.
    I never made that claim. However, when they can manufacture one of these truck frames at well under $100 while this guy is manufacturing his in the US for $220, what happens when they sell the Chinese versions for $199.99 and they are just about as good as the ones being made here? He can't even get his cost down to the price of the Chinese made versions..


    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    And don't give me that "They can lower the price in American through mechanization" crap, because the same mechanization you can do in America you can do in China.
    Yes but if you can do it here it is cheaper because you don't have to ship.


    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Yep. Free markets are great. And in our current less than free market the inventor in the OP should be applauded to sticking to his guns the same way Ron Paul is applauded for sticking to his.
    You could look at it like that.. But would you prefer this guy who has a penchant for manufacturing in the US be the successful entrepreneur who brought this product to market through outsourcing, or would you rather a company that has a penchant for manufacturing overseas bring this product to market and be successful?
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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I am a Business Analyst for a company who actively pursues manufacturing products in China and Taiwan, our profit margin is nearly double for items manufactured overseas. If we didn't do it, our competitor would be in business and we would not. It is not our decision to manufacture overseas.



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    Toyota has assembly plants in the US, too, but the components aren't built here.
    I think you may be trying to apply your situation to the whole damn thing. If so, not everything fits in a neat little box.

    I'm not claiming to know anything, just a thought.

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  8. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I never made that claim. However, when they can manufacture one of these truck frames at well under $100 while this guy is manufacturing his in the US for $220, what happens when they sell the Chinese versions for $199.99 and they are just about as good as the ones being made here? He can't even get his cost down to the price of the Chinese made versions.
    What if a huge chunk of their low cost of manufacturing is because they don't have to clean up after themselves, and can't be sued for wrongful death or injury?
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  9. #68

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    I'm in the make it here camp, I'll go out of my way and pay a premium to support businesses that I agree with.

    Every chance I get to put foreign made goods back on the shelf and pick up something made at home I will even if it costs more.

    Heck I won't buy Toyota or Datsun even though they're made here...

  10. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I'm in the make it here camp, I'll go out of my way and pay a premium to support businesses that I agree with.

    Every chance I get to put foreign made goods back on the shelf and pick up something made at home I will even if it costs more.

    Heck I won't buy Toyota or Datsun even though they're made here...
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  11. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by weilian View Post
    allen edmonds or aldens? brooks brothers or oxxford?
    Absolutely no idea of what you speak?

  12. #71
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    Buying locally, as in, from your neighborhood, makes sense.. but on a national level, what's the point? National pride? Trying to gain an economic edge over other countries?

    I may even prefer sending my money over to China.. at least I can be fairly sure that money won't turn around and be used to oppress me somehow...
    The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

  13. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphim View Post
    The fact that the SERFS squable over which serfdom territory is getting screwed over more is laughable.
    You say, "Hey kids! Did you know that if Jigsaw hadn't kidnapped a bunch of victims and put them into a macabre "WOULD YOU RATHER" torture game--you wouldn't be having this conversation at all?"

    To which their dull eyes give you vacant stares, with cud that is chewed just a bit slower for a moment...until they turn back away and start bickering with each other again over what would be best decisions to make--in Jigsaw's puzzle--which they take for granted as 'normal'.

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  14. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Absolutely no idea of what you speak?
    hehe, well then, take it as a tip. made in america shoes and made in america clothing.

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    Buying locally, as in, from your neighborhood, makes sense.. but on a national level, what's the point? National pride? Trying to gain an economic edge over other countries?

    I may even prefer sending my money over to China.. at least I can be fairly sure that money won't turn around and be used to oppress me somehow...
    There isn't a point. People buy the line that they are making the nation better, but then miss the fact that most "foreign" companies employ quite a lot of Americans, while a lot of traditionally "American" companies outsource a large section of their customer service, manufacturing, or other aspects.
    May the wings of liberty never lose a feather.

  16. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    What if a huge chunk of their low cost of manufacturing is because they don't have to clean up after themselves, and can't be sued for wrongful death or injury?
    Fair point. If I were the guy on this show I would have said that I would be willing to manufacture overseas as long as I was personally able to inspect the manufacturing facility and the workers.

    I believe companies should take some responsibility regarding where their goods are produced and how.

    I don't go to China personally, but I personally know the people who do go to visit our manufacturers. We only have a handful of manufacturers over there and if the conditions for the workers were that bad I'd know about it.

    The pressure to manufacture overseas is very high and the cost savings can be quite lucrative, even necessary to stay in business. Again, it wouldn't be that way in the free market. If you want to produce something in the US, go for it, but you will likely be out of business before long. It is very unfortunate that we are in this situation where business have to do this because of our currency imbalance.
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  17. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    We should support Americans. By giving them access to high quality products at affordable prices.

    If that means outsourcing to China... then so be it. If you choose to "Buy American" that's your choice, but me.. I fucking love my cheap chinese shit.
    The phrase "high quality" and the word "China" should not be used together.
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  18. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    What if a huge chunk of their low cost of manufacturing is because they don't have to clean up after themselves, and can't be sued for wrongful death or injury?
    Very good points.
    “I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,”
    he acknowledged, but "eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political
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    ” -- Ron Paul


    "We do have some differences and our approaches will be different, but that makes him his own person. I mean why should he [Rand] be a clone and do everything and think just exactly as I have. I think it's an opportunity to be independent minded. We are about 99% the same on issues." "People Try To Drive Wedges Between Rand And Me." --Ron Paul

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  19. #78
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    If there was no welfare, you know food stamps, assisted housing, medicaid, $8 an hour jobs wouldn't exist for grown adults because they wouldn't be able to afford to live. Minimum wage is stupid ideologically but artificially low wages only exist because a lot of people with those low paying jobs are getting free money from the government to live. If there was no welfare and the US made an effort to protect manufacturing people would make the wages they deserve.

  20. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by KrokHead View Post
    If there was no welfare, you know food stamps, assisted housing, medicaid, $8 an hour jobs wouldn't exist for grown adults because they wouldn't be able to afford to live. Minimum wage is stupid ideologically but artificially low wages only exist because a lot of people with those low paying jobs are getting free money from the government to live. If there was no welfare and the US made an effort to protect manufacturing people would make the wages they deserve.
    Actually, one of the problems is labor unions requiring that "manufacturing people" get more wages than they "deserve". ie. what the market will bear. Or maybe you can tell me why in hell someone in a union should be paid to sit on their asses and get paid during a layoff? Hell no, the government should not protect that.
    Last edited by LibertyEagle; 12-05-2012 at 06:07 PM.
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  21. #80
    Site Staff - Moderator Brian4Liberty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Someone explain something to me, please. Why is it that after the WTO was established and NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. were passed that the giant sucking sound that Perot warned about did in fact happen. In addition to the once fairly even trade balance between China and America that then became a huge imbalance illustrated by the stockpile of shipping containers that were not needed for a return trip to China. Jobs and entire industries were outsourced, including nearly all of manufacturing and a good portion of the software industry. Unemployment is as high now as during the Great Depression, with no end in sight.

    Then tell me why you think this was a good thing. In your own words, please.

    Thank you.
    Because in a vacuum, with a whole mass of important variables excluded, an economic hypothesis says that it is better. Plus politicians and corporate leaders told me it was a good thing. If I can't trust politicians and Wall St, who can I trust?
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  22. #81
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    For thousands of years people have bought goods traded from other countries because they could be made cheaper or better there.

  23. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    If you choose to "Buy American" that's your choice, but me.. I fucking love my cheap chinese shit.

    It's been my experience that my "cheap Chinese shit" breaks a whole helluva lot faster than my "made in America" shit, especially tools.

    Just my 2 cents' worth...

  24. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    It's been my experience that my "cheap Chinese shit" breaks a whole helluva lot faster than my "made in America" shit, especially tools.

    Just my 2 cents' worth...
    I make my living with my tools...+rep

  25. #84
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    As soon as Americans are willing to either remove the minimum wage and the stronghold of unions, or be willing to pay a lot more for their goods that are currently made overseas, you will see more American-made products.


    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    It's been my experience that my "cheap Chinese shit" breaks a whole helluva lot faster than my "made in America" shit, especially tools.

    Just my 2 cents' worth...
    Some things are worth paying more for to get quality, no arguing that. Most people won't wear out tools that others who use them for their trade daily would.
    Last edited by Bruno; 12-05-2012 at 06:26 PM.

  26. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Because in a vacuum, with a whole mass of important variables excluded, an economic hypothesis says that it is better. Plus politicians and corporate leaders told me it was a good thing. If I can't trust politicians and Wall St, who can I trust?
    Yup and a whole lot of people on this site seem to think it's dandy too.
    “I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,”
    he acknowledged, but "eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political
    action.
    ” -- Ron Paul


    "We do have some differences and our approaches will be different, but that makes him his own person. I mean why should he [Rand] be a clone and do everything and think just exactly as I have. I think it's an opportunity to be independent minded. We are about 99% the same on issues." "People Try To Drive Wedges Between Rand And Me." --Ron Paul

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=pB5JgzBVHN0

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  27. #86

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    outsourcing. aka the forcing through gunpoint of business to move their production overseas. if you disagree, take up with these people
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  28. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Someone explain something to me, please. Why is it that after the WTO was established and NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. were passed that the giant sucking sound that Perot warned about did in fact happen. In addition to the once fairly even trade balance between China and America that then became a huge imbalance illustrated by the stockpile of shipping containers that were not needed for a return trip to China. Jobs and entire industries were outsourced, including nearly all of manufacturing and a good portion of the software industry. Unemployment is as high now as during the Great Depression, with no end in sight.

    Then tell me why you think this was a good thing. In your own words, please.

    Thank you.
    It's a good thing the same way computers and automation are a good thing. Less people working, less people injured from work, less people worrying about work related abuse and harassment. The only thing "bad" about unemployment is not having money, if we can overcome that, we'd NEVER worry about jobs. If your sole goal is to have jobs, then innovation and automation should be crimes, because efficiency ALWAYS AND ONLY leads to less employment and ALWAYS makes labor, skill less valuable. In fact, so does procreation.

    It's funny that people who are upset at unemployment or outsourcing seem to always blame corporate employers and the replacement employees, do they ever consider that procreation may be a problem too? If we had 1/3 or 1/2 less Americans today, would we have more or less consumption, inflation and unemployment? Somehow this is NEVER a problem. Because it's ok for a Americans who have children and want to feed their families, but not OK for corporations to feed their employees, or foreigners to want to feed their families.

  29. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    outsourcing. aka the forcing through gunpoint of business to move their production overseas. if you disagree, take up with these people
    http://www.dondero.com/misc%20seals/DT_Customs_SA.jpg
    http://humanewatch.org/images/upload...sury_badge.gif
    who is forcing a business to outsource? Taxes? Wage limits? Or just foreigners with cheaper labor?

  30. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    It's been my experience that my "cheap Chinese shit" breaks a whole helluva lot faster than my "made in America" shit, especially tools.

    Just my 2 cents' worth...
    German quality kicks our ass seven days from Sunday though.
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    ..
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  31. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    It's a good thing the same way computers and automation are a good thing. Less people working, less people injured from work, less people worrying about work related abuse and harassment. The only thing "bad" about unemployment is not having money, if we can overcome that, we'd NEVER worry about jobs. If your sole goal is to have jobs, then innovation and automation should be crimes, because efficiency ALWAYS AND ONLY leads to less employment and ALWAYS makes labor, skill less valuable. In fact, so does procreation.

    It's funny that people who are upset at unemployment or outsourcing seem to always blame corporate employers and the replacement employees, do they ever consider that procreation may be a problem too? If we had 1/3 or 1/2 less Americans today, would we have more or less consumption, inflation and unemployment? Somehow this is NEVER a problem. Because it's ok for a Americans who have children and want to feed their families, but not OK for corporations to feed their employees, or foreigners to want to feed their families.
    Are you serious?

    Where is one of those facepalm images?
    “I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,”
    he acknowledged, but "eventually, if you want to bring about changes … what you have to do is participate in political
    action.
    ” -- Ron Paul


    "We do have some differences and our approaches will be different, but that makes him his own person. I mean why should he [Rand] be a clone and do everything and think just exactly as I have. I think it's an opportunity to be independent minded. We are about 99% the same on issues." "People Try To Drive Wedges Between Rand And Me." --Ron Paul

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=pB5JgzBVHN0

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