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Thread: Why God Created Evil

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010 View Post
    ( wonder if anyone that is responding in this thread has read Romans 9:14-24 or anyone will attempt to go by line-by-line to understand...hope so!)
    I have and again, I disagree with your assessment. I think that by dismissing the early church writings and claiming the Mr.White has the better understanding you are much as TER said, reinterpreting outside of the original intent. Here is the link to St.John of Chrysostom's homilies on Romans, link is to the specific verses you are targeting. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210216.htm

    I also gave you previously a link to a seperate view which covered a modern argument against Mr. White's analysis specifically. It also goes into Luke 13 which you brought up. Here it is again:http://www.docstoc.com/docs/37438180...S-WHITE-DEBATE Romans 9 portion starts on page 7. Luke 13 starts on page 14 of that document.

    The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura had the best of intentions when it came to weeding out the degenerate teachings of the Church at the time it was proposed. However, it threw the baby out with the bath water when people now think they can call their church, The Church, based upon the opinions of modern thinkings operating in a vacuum. Much like your insistence on limiting discussion to the verses you wish, by taking scriptures seperately and refusing to look at the whole body of information (as well as common practice by early Christians) one can attempt to propose one intent when by looking at the body of information the meaning is different based upon context.

    I am not arguing with you for the sake of proving I am right and you are wrong. I am greatly offended by the portrayal put forth by the views you are espousing as biblical truths. You are right though in that I don't want to worship the god Mr. White believes in. I find him (the god of Mr.White) to be a petty tyrant with a lust for blood that would create something merely to have it live a wretched existence with no hope of relief from torment it imposed on its creation.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle



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  3. #32
    You are right though in that I don't want to worship the god Mr. White believes in. I find him (the god of Mr.White) to be a petty tyrant with a lust for blood that would create something merely to have it live a wretched existence with no hope of relief from torment it imposed on its creation.
    Moosetracks,

    Would you walk with me verse by verse on Romans 9:14-24 to tell me exactly where you think I am not exegeting it correctly?

    Why did you not quote where you disagreed with me an offer a counter-exegesis? That's what I would have hoped you'd do. I would welcome us going through that portion line by line together. Would you do it?



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura had the best of intentions when it came to weeding out the degenerate teachings of the Church at the time it was proposed. However, it threw the baby out with the bath water when people now think they can call their church, The Church, based upon the opinions of modern thinkings operating in a vacuum. Much like your insistence on limiting discussion to the verses you wish, by taking scriptures seperately and refusing to look at the whole body of information (as well as common practice by early Christians) one can attempt to propose one intent when by looking at the body of information the meaning is different based upon context.

    I am not arguing with you for the sake of proving I am right and you are wrong. I am greatly offended by the portrayal put forth by the views you are espousing as biblical truths. You are right though in that I don't want to worship the god Mr. White believes in. I find him (the god of Mr.White) to be a petty tyrant with a lust for blood that would create something merely to have it live a wretched existence with no hope of relief from torment it imposed on its creation.
    I agree, the flaw of Sola Scriptura is it completely excludes Sacred Tradition. It assumes the the Holy Spirit only passed on the word of God through writing and not through spoken word. How does one reconcile this with 2 Thessalonians 15?

    So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings (or traditions) we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
    Or the fact the Christ himself told us to listen to the Church Founders in 2 Timothy 2
    And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    I agree, the flaw of Sola Scriptura is it completely excludes Sacred Tradition. It assumes the the Holy Spirit only passed on the word of God through writing and not through spoken word. How does one reconcile this with 2 Thessalonians 15?



    Or the fact the Christ himself told us to listen to the Church Founders in 2 Timothy 2
    Nah. Sola Scriptura does not mean "throw out all tradition", it simply means "tradition must be brought in to line by the Word of God, which is the ultimate authority".

    But again, I have tried 3 times to bring the subject back on the issue of what the text says. I would rather talk about that

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010 View Post
    Nah. Sola Scriptura does not mean "throw out all tradition", it simply means "tradition must be brought in to line by the Word of God, which is the ultimate authority".

    But again, I have tried 3 times to bring the subject back on the issue of what the text says. I would rather talk about that
    Many of us (Catholics and Orthodox) disagree. Scripture is but one of the three authorities, the others being Sacred Tradition and espiscopacy. None can override or contradict the other.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010 View Post
    Moosetracks,

    Would you walk with me verse by verse on Romans 9:14-24 to tell me exactly where you think I am not exegeting it correctly?

    Why did you not quote where you disagreed with me an offer a counter-exegesis? That's what I would have hoped you'd do. I would welcome us going through that portion line by line together. Would you do it?
    I think I provided you with alternative discussions which take you or anyone else concerned with this issue through the verses, verse by verse, better than I myself can do justice to the issue. I would take the time to do it myself but it would be redundant considering the links I provided and I feel an exercise in frustration, probably for the both of us. As long as you hold fast to the belief of determinism you will interpret the verses in a manner that comes from that premise. I disagree completely with that philosophy and the conclusions that come from that belief system. It is my obligation to put forth an alternative as one who feels that the Father is being misrepresented. The rest is between you and Him. Peace on your path....
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    I think I provided you with alternative discussions which take you or anyone else concerned with this issue through the verses, verse by verse, better than I myself can do justice to the issue. I would take the time to do it myself but it would be redundant considering the links I provided and I feel an exercise in frustration, probably for the both of us. As long as you hold fast to the belief of determinism you will interpret the verses in a manner that comes from that premise. I disagree completely with that philosophy and the conclusions that come from that belief system. It is my obligation to put forth an alternative as one who feels that the Father is being misrepresented. The rest is between you and Him. Peace on your path....

    I know, but you are linking to Dave Hunt books like he is a good person to fall back on when everyone who is familiar with the James White/Dave Hunt "debate" knows that Dave Hunt was utterly embarrassed and has refused to debate for several years. Google it, YouTube it. I'm not making it up.

    One of the criticisms we Reformed people have is that Arminians can not and will not walk through a text of Scripture with us. We know that when you finally commit to doing that, you will become Calvinists. This is just simply what the Scripture teaches.

    Also, don't ever underestimate your fallen heart. The natural man recoils at any doctrine that denies his own power and autonomy. Calvinism is true Christianity, and true Christianity exalts the Creator and humbles the created.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010 View Post
    I know, but you are linking to Dave Hunt books like he is a good person to fall back on when everyone who is familiar with the James White/Dave Hunt "debate" knows that Dave Hunt was utterly embarrassed and has refused to debate for several years. Google it, YouTube it. I'm not making it up.

    One of the criticisms we Reformed people have is that Arminians can not and will not walk through a text of Scripture with us. We know that when you finally commit to doing that, you will become Calvinists. This is just simply what the Scripture teaches.

    Also, don't ever underestimate your fallen heart. The natural man recoils at any doctrine that denies his own power and autonomy. Calvinism is true Christianity, and true Christianity exalts the Creator and humbles the created.
    Oh please. I did my stint as a Calvinist and bear the war wounds to prove it. I will NEVER return to that dismal place of despair and arrogance that Calvinism embraces. Scripture taken in a vacuum can be corrupted to mean a number of things. As for the Dave Hunt thing, don't have a dog in that fight. I posted a link to an opposing point of view just as I did with the Orthodox views. I liken man's understanding of the Creator to the blind men and the elephant. Each one right and each one wrong. Some get it more right than others based on having a link to oral tradition while others are grasping blindly in the dark and only have their own limited experience to go by. So one can take anothers argument and argue about the character of the person puting it forth or they can argue about the validity of the possibility for difference in interpretation. I see you are choosing not to argue the case of perception but dispute his character. Coming from someone who has disrespected the early church leaders and other sects this is not surprising but still depressing none the less.

    When it comes to matters of major importance such as the issue of evil, I think one would be best served to try and get to the earliest opinions on the matter rather than taking the word of someone who is so far removed from the culture in time and space. Why are you choosing to ignore Chrysostom's work from the link I posted? Have you done any research involving the early church on the matter? May you keep an open mind in your quest.

    As for being Arminian, that is probably what I am closest to as it stands right now from a point of worship but I wouldn't limit myself to that analysis. EO is my go to for my personal information in times of question. I also have some commonality with conservative Quakers. Religion is man's form to define the undefinable and worship. I am not choosing not to argue with you because I fear that you might prove me wrong or change my views. I am not arguing the issue with you because you seem too invested in proving your views right imo and I just feel like I will waste another day on these forums in futility when my family needs me for more important things. I don't see why my opinion on this issue should matter anyways. If you were interested in the issue of evil you would look at the links myself and others have provided and argue the merits of an alternative view rather than having any of us give a personal line by line dissertation of our own making or dismissing the argument because it isn't from your chosen source. Again your premise for your viewpoint is the lack of free will and we will never get anywhere as long as you and I are on opposing sides of the matter. I can only give you food for thought to challenge your beliefs.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Drex View Post
    Man created evil
    Yep... "free will". Adam and Eve both chose to know both good and evil. God didn't force them to "eat of the tree"... they did it by their own free will. God is like the ultimate Libertarian.
    Indianensis Universitatis Alumnus

  12. #40
    you can't really be free without a choice



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010 View Post
    I agree. God is the Soveriegn Lord who does whatever He intends to do.

    Then He did create evil for a specific purpose. As Romans 9 14-24 says:

    ( wonder if anyone that is responding in this thread has read Romans 9:14-24 or anyone will attempt to go by line-by-line to understand...hope so!)
    You seem bent on attributing sin to God. 1st John 1.5 tells us that, "God is light and there is no darkness in Him at all." [NLT] Then 3.5 says, "And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in Him." [NLT] Jesus told us in Matthew 5.48 that our Father in Heaven is PERFECT. This being true, how can the creation of sin and evil, which you seem to be proclaiming, be attributed to God?

    Romans 9, line by line might confuse the issue. I'd rather take the whole in context.

    Whitney Houston just died, and by all accounts, her life, at least her outward life, was pretty messed up. But God judges the heart, which no man can do. What if God then chose to have mercy for her spirit? He has that right and power to do so. So then, God has mercy on whom he will have mercy. Also, God can use anyone for His purpose, including an evil king, or President.

    All this simply says that God is sovereign and can do whatever He pleases. None of this shows that God created sin and evil. How can God create sin and evil when He is perfect. There is no imperfection in Him at all.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by AquaBuddha2010 View Post
    Moosetracks,

    Would you walk with me verse by verse on Romans 9:14-24 to tell me exactly where you think I am not exegeting it correctly?
    You separate words from their context. For example, I have a duo-tone car. It's a white car with a blue canvass top. If I describe my car using your kind of exegesis, I could say I have a white car. But to do that I would have to totally ignore all the blue. In order to accurately describe my car, I must keep the white in context of all the colors.

  16. #43
    AquaBuddha, please explain this passage in James 1:13-14

    13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


    Now, put the plain teaching of James 1:13-14 up against what you quoted in the OP.

    It is true that a person sins according to his evil nature, but as Luther writes, it is God who "creates" this evil nature in each newly conceived person after the pattern of fallen Adam, whose fall God also caused. And then, God must actively cause this evil nature to function and the person to act according to it. Luther writes that God never allows this evil nature to be idle in Satan and in ungodly people, but he continuously causes it to function by his power.
    That heresy goes beyond God "tempting" man into God forcing man to be evil. You don't need "tradition of the church fathers" to refute that. All you need is simply to read the Word of God as written. As for your "proof text" in Romans 9 you need to go back and read Romans 1.

    The key point in Romans 1:19-32 is that because people rejected God, He gave them over to a reprobate mind. He let pharaoh and others reap the natural consequences of their choices.
    Romans 1:19-32
    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  17. #44
    You first need to define what determines something to be evil

    Evil = Opposition to God's Will

    So if you use that as the definition of evil (sin),you can't say God created evil.

    Unless you say that by allowing us free will to decide for ourselves whether to resist God's will, is creating opportunity for us to resist God.Even by allowing us the ability to decide, the choice to be evil is still ours.When God hardened the Pharaohs heart , it was only after he refused God,s will numerous times prior.

  18. #45
    If “God” made humans, how could there be a motive in them to “oppose God’s will”? "Free will" doesn't explain motive.
    Last edited by robert68; 02-17-2012 at 11:28 PM.

  19. #46
    Useless discussion is useless.
    "This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children." -Dwight D. Eisenhower, April 16, 1953

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by CasualApathy View Post
    Useless discussion is useless.
    Why bother to comment if you feel its useless?

    Its not your opinion of the discussion that compels you or others to interject into the conversation ,but rather your desire to let it be known of your disdain for religion.Instead of being so quick to let your arrogant opinion dictate what you say,I would hope as a lover of liberty you would see the value of the individual seeking not just seeking physical freedom but mental freedom as well.

    Most people let the Worlds interpretation of the Bible determine there opinion,but the Bible offers freedom of the mind if you can humble yourself enough to give it a unbiased attention.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    If “God” made humans, how could there be a motive in them to “oppose God’s will”? "Free will" doesn't explain motive.
    Motive comes when a person is drawn away by there own lusts

    James 1

    13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    Lust is a uncontrollable desire for something .Thats why God stresses the importance of discipline in all things or moderation so that they won't get out of control to the point to where those desires run your life and dictate your actions.

    1 Corinthians 6

    12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
    Last edited by robert9712000; 02-18-2012 at 07:20 AM.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by robert9712000 View Post
    Why bother to comment if you feel its useless?

    Its not your opinion of the discussion that compels you or others to interject into the conversation ,but rather your desire to let it be known of your disdain for religion.Instead of being so quick to let your arrogant opinion dictate what you say,I would hope as a lover of liberty you would see the value of the individual seeking not just seeking physical freedom but mental freedom as well.

    Most people let the Worlds interpretation of the Bible determine there opinion,but the Bible offers freedom of the mind if you can humble yourself enough to give it a unbiased attention.
    The devil made me do it! Please forgive me
    "This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children." -Dwight D. Eisenhower, April 16, 1953

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by robert9712000 View Post
    Motive comes when a person is drawn away by there own lusts



    Lust is a uncontrollable desire for something .Thats why God stresses the importance of discipline in all things or moderation so that they won't get out of control to the point to where those desires run your life and dictate your actions.
    Where does lust or “uncontrollable desire for something” come from? If “God” made the lustful person, then how didn't the “uncontrollable desire” come from “him”? If a home is built with a leaky roof, isn’t the builder of the home to blame for the leaky roof?

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    Where does lust or “uncontrollable desire for something” come from? If “God” made the lustful person, then how didn't the “uncontrollable desire” come from “him”? If a home is built with a leaky roof, isn’t the builder of the home to blame for the leaky roof?
    God doesn't make anyone lustful,a lustful person chooses too pursue lust.I should clarify more,when i said uncontrollable.I should have said very hard to control,no lust ever has complete control but it can have a very powerful grip on your mind, if you feed the initial lustful desire to the point of addiction.

    You use the analogy of a roofer being liable for a leaky roof but the problem were talking about wasn't caused by the builder it was caused by you.A better analogy which also compares lust not as just a problem that needs fixed but something that can destroy your life is, If a gun maker makes a Gun and you use that gun to kill yourself is the Gun Maker liable for your death? Just because God allows you the ability to choose lust,doesn't make him responsible if you choose to indulge in it.

    Its the same idea as libertarianism,where we as men have concluded that the most fair form of living,which would allow maximum access to freedom is to allow the individual to be responsible for there own actions.If God judged us solely on our actions Hed be justified in his judgements of our transgressions ,but he goes out of his way to Show us mercy by giving us a means to nullify the judgement we deserve,for hed rather us to become better people than be forced to judge us because of our refusal to accept his gift of the knowledge of righteousness.

    I,m sure you'll ask, why i said forced to judge us.Hes forced to judge because since he is righteous,Righteousness demands judgement of sin else it wouldn't be righteous .If God didnt judge there would be no distinction between good and evil.
    His allowing Christ to be judged for our Sin not only shows how deeply he desires us to overcome our Sin but it also shows how big a deal it really was when Christ chose to die for Mans sin.All he requires is that you accept his sacrifice.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    Where does lust or “uncontrollable desire for something” come from? If “God” made the lustful person, then how didn't the “uncontrollable desire” come from “him”? If a home is built with a leaky roof, isn’t the builder of the home to blame for the leaky roof?
    Romans 5:12
    When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

    And google "epigenome".
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    As you should. Stating God is the cause for evil is a serious charge as well.



    AB, why don't you read some of the early Church Fathers for the answers. They explain it much better than me.
    Ran across this site and found a brief run down on the early church writings on free will which really is the essence of the issue of evil. THis is not an endorsement of the site just happened to be a handy link to brief snippets from the early church writers...

    http://pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin12.html
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Ran across this site and found a brief run down on the early church writings on free will which really is the essence of the issue of evil. THis is not an endorsement of the site just happened to be a handy link to brief snippets from the early church writers...

    http://pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin12.html
    Great resource! Thanks for posting. (And not just a resource for this topic).
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by robert9712000 View Post
    God doesn't make anyone lustful,a lustful person chooses too pursue lust.I should clarify more,when i said uncontrollable.I should have said very hard to control,no lust ever has complete control but it can have a very powerful grip on your mind, if you feed the initial lustful desire to the point of addiction.
    But why does a "lustful" person "choose to pursue lust?

    You use the analogy of a roofer being liable for a leaky roof but the problem were talking about wasn't caused by the builder it was caused by you.
    How so, I didn’t build the roof in my analogy?

    A better analogy which also compares lust not as just a problem that needs fixed but something that can destroy your life is, If a gun maker makes a Gun and you use that gun to kill yourself is the Gun Maker liable for your death? Just because God allows you the ability to choose lust,doesn't make him responsible if you choose to indulge in it

    ...
    But that's different, the gun maker didn’t make me, as “God” did.

  30. #56
    Bump.

    If anyone here wants to debate me on this issue, let's do it. I think I hold the most "extreme" (I.e. biblical) view on this....so let's go.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Bump.

    If anyone here wants to debate me on this issue, let's do it. I think I hold the most "extreme" (I.e. biblical) view on this....so let's go.
    Alright, I'll bite

    I assume that by "evil", you mean sin, rather than "calamity."

    With that being said, quoting Vincent Cheung

    We are not using the word "create" in the same sense as God's original creation out of nothing, but we are referring to God's control over things that he has already created. That is, although God must actively cause evil thoughts and inclinations in the creature, and then he must actively cause the corresponding evil actions, he does not create new material or substance when he does this, since he is controlling what he has already created.
    This is the point where I would disagree. I don't see any Biblical mandate for saying God causes people to be evil after he created them. Rather, I would say that God creates evil people and then leaves them to their evil desires. The elect, by contrast, God creates evil and then changes, taking the heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh.

    Just to clarify, do you believe in equal ultimacy? Because I think that's ultimately what the debate comes down to.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Alright, I'll bite

    I assume that by "evil", you mean sin, rather than "calamity."

    With that being said, quoting Vincent Cheung



    This is the point where I would disagree. Idon't see any Biblical mandate for saying God causes people to be evil after he created them. Rather, I would say that God creates evil people and then leaves them to their evil desires. The elect, by contrast, God creates evil and then changes, taking the heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh.

    Just to clarify, do you believe in equal ultimacy? Because I think that's ultimately what the debate comes down to.
    One of the reasons that God created evil was explained in Romans 9:

    Romans 9:22-24

    What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
    God chooses to show His wrath. He bears with great patience the objects prepared for destruction. He doesn't destroy them immediately. He bears with them in order that He will show the objects of His mercy how wonderful grace really is.

    There is eternal purpose and intention for evil. It is for God's glory to be shown to the elect.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 04-14-2014 at 06:42 PM.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    One of the reasons that God created evil was explained in Romans 9:



    God chooses to show His wrath. He bears with great patience the objects prepared for destruction. He doesn't destroy them immediately. He bears with them in order that He will show the objects of His mercy how wonderful grace really is.

    There is eternal purpose and intention for evil. It is for God's glory to be shown to elect.
    I completely agree with you. The point I disagreed with Cheung (And I assume yourself) on is that I don't believe God causes people to be evil after he creates them. This would imply that man is not actually totally depraved but that God has to actively cause what would otherwise be a morally neutral being to be totally depraved. I believe God predestines every evil event according to his purpose without actively causing people to be evil. He does this because when man is first conceived he is evil, God restrains man with his grace or hardens man by withdrawing his grace. If God hardens man by withdrawing his grace, man can do nothing but be completely evil, because that is what man is.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I completely agree with you. The point I disagreed with Cheung (And I assume yourself) on is that I don't believe God causes people to be evil after he creates them. This would imply that man is not actually totally depraved but that God has to actively cause what would otherwise be a morally neutral being to be totally depraved. I believe God predestines every evil event according to his purpose without actively causing people to be evil. He does this because when man is first conceived he is evil, God restrains man with his grace or hardens man by withdrawing his grace. If God hardens man by withdrawing his grace, man can do nothing but be completely evil, because that is what man is.
    How could anything happen in creation without God causing it?

    How could God prepare objects for destruction without causation?

    Get consistent with the Word of God man.

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