Why God Created Evil

[Sola_Fide]

Why God Created Evil
Vincent Cheung

http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/06...-created-evil/

We are not using the word "create" in the same sense as God's original creation out of nothing, but we are referring to God's control over things that he has already created. That is, although God must actively cause evil thoughts and inclinations in the creature, and then he must actively cause the corresponding evil actions, he does not create new material or substance when he does this, since he is controlling what he has already created.


It is true that a person sins according to his evil nature, but as Luther writes, it is God who "creates" this evil nature in each newly conceived person after the pattern of fallen Adam, whose fall God also caused. And then, God must actively cause this evil nature to function and the person to act according to it. Luther writes that God never allows this evil nature to be idle in Satan and in ungodly people, but he continuously causes it to function by his power.


Luther perceived the biblical and metaphysical absurdities of affirming anything short of the above; in contrast, the weak view (common to [some seemingly] Reformed Christians today) is an unbiblical, unnecessary, irrational, and sophistical evasion. If our position is hyper-Calvinism (it is not), then it would simply mean that hyper-Calvinism is the correct and biblical view. And mislabeling it as fatalism doesn't do anything, either – it is the wimp's way out.


As for God's purpose for sin and evil, first, in boldly acknowledging the biblical truth that God is the sovereign and righteous "author of sin," we can note that even if we were unable to answer the question as to why he caused sin and evil, it would not pose a problem to Christianity, nor would it undermine what I've said about the "author of sin" issue. That is, even if we do not have an answer to the question, there is no self-contradiction in our view, nor does our view contradict Scripture. It would just be a matter of a lack of information, and rationally speaking, this is all that is at stake.


That said, we do have an answer to the question, and it is in the very passage that we examined from Romans 9:

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?


What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath – prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory –

even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (v. 19–24)

According to Paul, at least one reason (it doesn't have to be the only reason) God created the reprobates (that is, to "create sin") is to provide a context through which he can reveal his wrath – something that the elect will otherwise never witness or experience. In other words, the reprobates are for the education and edification of the elect. They maintain a world of struggles and temptations for the elect, and at the end the elect will witness the outpouring of divine wrath against them. All of this serves to advance the sanctification of the elect and the declarative glory of God.


The following is taken from my Systematic Theology:

One important but neglected benefit that the love of God makes available to Christians is spiritual illumination:

Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him. (John 14:21)

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. (John 15:15)

Theological knowledge – that is, intellectual knowledge about spiritual things – is one of the least prized gifts from God. But to be a friend of God means to have such knowledge. The scorn with which many professing believers regard doctrinal studies shows that they do not truly love God, although they would like to think that they love him.


Jeremiah 9:23-24 tells us that our priority is to obtain understanding and knowledge about God:

This is what the LORD says: "Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 9:23-24)

The knowledge of God is the most valuable treasure, and everything else is "dung" (Philippians 3:8, KJV) in comparison. In offering his elect reliable information about himself, God is giving them one of the greatest gifts that he can give to them….

One purpose of the reprobates – "the objects of his wrath" or those who are "prepared for destruction" – is that God may reveal this aspect of his nature to "the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory" (Romans 9:22-23). Since Christians have been "saved from God's wrath" (Romans 5:9) through Christ, this is one divine attribute that the elect will never experience, and therefore it must be demonstrated to them in other people. Recall that one benefit God gives to the elect is information or knowledge about himself, and this shows us to what lengths he will go to make himself known to his people.

Of course, people might not like this explanation, but it is the explicit teaching of Scripture. All that God does is intrinsically good and righteous, so it is also good and righteous for him to create the reprobates for the above purpose. Humanistic thinking will be horrified by this teaching, since it is more concerned about man's dignity and comfort than God's purpose and glory, but those with the mind of Christ will erupt in gratitude and reverence, and affirm that God is righteous, and that he does all things well.

...

[TER]

Blasphemy.

[libertarian4321]

Blasphemy.

Agreed.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster would never knowingly create evil.

[Drex]

Man created evil

[Captain Caveman]

Agreed.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster would never knowingly create evil.

God knows all things, past present and future. Agreed?

Knowing this, knowing what His creation was going to do, HE allowed it anyway (good and evil).

Without knowledge of wrongdoing, or wrongdoing to be allowed, we would not know how or why we need Him.

Therefor, the logical conclusion is that God may not have intentionally set out to create evil, but He knew that it would occur, and He created all things anyway.

With this reasoning in mind (not the reasoning given in the OP), it can be said that God did create evil.. not that He set out to do that, but that it was a "side effect" of creating all things.

God created all things, yes?

/food for thought

[otherone]

Therefor, the logical conclusion....With this reasoning in mind.....food for thought

I believe the Greeks screwed up a perfectly fine Jewish splinter cult.

[Sola_Fide]

Blasphemy.

Okay. Now this is a heavy charge, and something I take very seriously. Therefore, let's focus on God's Word and see if your heavy charge against me will bear out.

There are so many possible verses that I could begin with, but I will start with the one in the OP just to stay with the theme. This is from Romans 9. I am going to quote from the NLT because it is the simplest to understand. I am going to divide up the verses so everyone can digest each verse before going on to the next:

Romans 9:15-24 NLT

For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”


So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.


For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”


So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.


Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”


No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”


When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?


In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.


He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.


And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

TER, could you please exegete Romans 9:15-24 in the simplest way possible for me? I won't ask any other questions of you until I see where you stand on this. Thanks.

[moostraks]

A different perspective:
"THE ORIGIN OF EVIL


At the dawn of creation, before God made the visible world, but after the creation of the angels, there was a great catastrophe, of which we have knowledge only by its consequences. A group of angels opposed itself to God and fell away from Him, thereby becoming enemies of all that was good and holy. At the head of this rebellion stood Lucifer, whose very name (literally meaning 'light-bearing') indicates that originally he was good. By his own will he changed from his natural state into one which was unnatural; he opposed himself to God and fell away from good into evil. Lucifer, also called the devil (Greek diabolos - 'divider', 'separator', 'slanderer'), belonged to one of the highest ranks in the angelic hierarchy. Together with him other angels also defected, as the Book of Revelation tells us metaphorically: 'And a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch... and a third of the stars was struck, so that a third of their light was darkened' (Rev.8:10, 12). Some commentators therefore say that along with the morning star a third of the angels fell away.

By exercising their own free will the devil and his demons found themselves in darkness. Every reasonable living creature, whether angel or human being, possesses free will: the right to choose between good and evil. Free will is the property of everyone so that we can, by practicing good, become an ontological part of that good. In other words, goodness was never meant to be granted externally to us but must become our very own possession. If God imposed goodness as a necessity or an inevitability, then no one could ever become a perfectly free person. 'Nobody has ever become good by force', says St Symeon the New Theologian. Through unceasing growth in virtue the angels were meant to ascend to the plenitude of perfection, to the point of utter assimilation to the God of supreme goodness. Yet some of them chose to reject God and thereby sealed their own fate and the fate of the universe, which from that moment onwards became an arena for two contending polar (yet not equal) principles and powers: the Divine and the demonic, God and the devil.

The problem of the origin of evil has always been a challenge for Christian theology as it has often had to contend with overt or hidden manifestations of dualism. According to some dualistic sects, the entirety of being is made up of two realms which have forever existed together: the kingdom of light filled with many good aeons (angels), and the kingdom of darkness, filled with evil aeons (demons). Spiritual reality is subject to the god of light, while the god of darkness (Satan) has unlimited dominion over the material world. Matter itself is a sinful and evil entity: the humans should by all means possible mortify their bodies in order to be liberated from matter and return to the non-material world of good.

Christian theology viewed the nature and origin of evil differently. Evil is not a primeval essence that is coeternal and equal to God; it is a falling away from good, it is a revolt against good. In this sense it would be wrong to call evil a 'substance', as it does not exist in its own right. As darkness or shadow are not independent beings but are simply the absence or lack of light, so evil is merely the absence of good. 'Evil', writes St Basil the Great, 'is not a living and animated substance, but a condition of the soul which is opposed to virtue and which springs up in the slothful because of their falling away from Good. Do not, therefore, contemplate evil from without; and do not imagine some original nature of wickedness, but let each one recognize himself as the first author of the vice that is in him'.

God did not create anything evil: both angels and humans, as well as the material world, are good and beautiful by nature. However, rational creatures, possessing free will, can direct their freedom against God and thereby engender evil. This is precisely what happened: the light-bearing morning star (Lucifer), originally created good, abused his freedom, defaced his own virtuous nature and fell away from the Source of goodness."

http://www.sourozh.org/orthodox-fait...n-of-evil.html

[JuicyG]

There is no such thing as good and evil.

I suggest you guys read "Beyond good and evil" by Friedrich Nietzsche.

[MRoCkEd]

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." Gen 50:20

[TER]

A different perspective:
"THE ORIGIN OF EVIL


At the dawn of creation, before God made the visible world, but after the creation of the angels, there was a great catastrophe, of which we have knowledge only by its consequences. A group of angels opposed itself to God and fell away from Him, thereby becoming enemies of all that was good and holy. At the head of this rebellion stood Lucifer, whose very name (literally meaning 'light-bearing') indicates that originally he was good. By his own will he changed from his natural state into one which was unnatural; he opposed himself to God and fell away from good into evil. Lucifer, also called the devil (Greek diabolos - 'divider', 'separator', 'slanderer'), belonged to one of the highest ranks in the angelic hierarchy. Together with him other angels also defected, as the Book of Revelation tells us metaphorically: 'And a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch... and a third of the stars was struck, so that a third of their light was darkened' (Rev.8:10, 12). Some commentators therefore say that along with the morning star a third of the angels fell away.

By exercising their own free will the devil and his demons found themselves in darkness. Every reasonable living creature, whether angel or human being, possesses free will: the right to choose between good and evil. Free will is the property of everyone so that we can, by practicing good, become an ontological part of that good. In other words, goodness was never meant to be granted externally to us but must become our very own possession. If God imposed goodness as a necessity or an inevitability, then no one could ever become a perfectly free person. 'Nobody has ever become good by force', says St Symeon the New Theologian. Through unceasing growth in virtue the angels were meant to ascend to the plenitude of perfection, to the point of utter assimilation to the God of supreme goodness. Yet some of them chose to reject God and thereby sealed their own fate and the fate of the universe, which from that moment onwards became an arena for two contending polar (yet not equal) principles and powers: the Divine and the demonic, God and the devil.

The problem of the origin of evil has always been a challenge for Christian theology as it has often had to contend with overt or hidden manifestations of dualism. According to some dualistic sects, the entirety of being is made up of two realms which have forever existed together: the kingdom of light filled with many good aeons (angels), and the kingdom of darkness, filled with evil aeons (demons). Spiritual reality is subject to the god of light, while the god of darkness (Satan) has unlimited dominion over the material world. Matter itself is a sinful and evil entity: the humans should by all means possible mortify their bodies in order to be liberated from matter and return to the non-material world of good.

Christian theology viewed the nature and origin of evil differently. Evil is not a primeval essence that is coeternal and equal to God; it is a falling away from good, it is a revolt against good. In this sense it would be wrong to call evil a 'substance', as it does not exist in its own right. As darkness or shadow are not independent beings but are simply the absence or lack of light, so evil is merely the absence of good. 'Evil', writes St Basil the Great, 'is not a living and animated substance, but a condition of the soul which is opposed to virtue and which springs up in the slothful because of their falling away from Good. Do not, therefore, contemplate evil from without; and do not imagine some original nature of wickedness, but let each one recognize himself as the first author of the vice that is in him'.

God did not create anything evil: both angels and humans, as well as the material world, are good and beautiful by nature. However, rational creatures, possessing free will, can direct their freedom against God and thereby engender evil. This is precisely what happened: the light-bearing morning star (Lucifer), originally created good, abused his freedom, defaced his own virtuous nature and fell away from the Source of goodness."

http://www.sourozh.org/orthodox-fait...n-of-evil.html

Worth repeating. Excellent post.

[TER]

Okay. Now this is a heavy charge, and something I take very seriously.

As you should. Stating God is the cause for evil is a serious charge as well.

TER, could you please exegete Romans 9:15-24 in the simplest way possible for me? I won't ask any other questions of you until I see where you stand on this. Thanks.

AB, why don't you read some of the early Church Fathers for the answers. They explain it much better than me.

[Captain Caveman]

I believe the Greeks screwed up a perfectly fine Jewish splinter cult.

Oddly, I thought the thinking I wrote about was getting away from Hellenistic thinking (Greek "this or that" mentality), to promote some extra ideas.

heh

[Captain Caveman]

As you should. Stating God is the cause for evil is a serious charge as well.



AB, why don't you read some of the early Church Fathers for the answers. They explain it much better than me.

Causing something to happen, can differ from purposing something to happen.

Not trying to throw any monkey wrenches in here (maybe I am.. sorry!).

[TER]

Evil is not the opposite of Good as much as it is the absence of Good just as Darkness is not the opposite of Light as much as it is the absence of Light.

Evil 'exists' in that it is apart from God. It has not substance to itself just as darkness is not substance but the lack of light. God allows things to happen that we see as evil because by allowing it to happen we might be corrected and change our ways. BUT, that does not mean that God is the cause of it or it is His will that such evil occurs.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Luke 13:34)

I have yet to get a Calvinist give me any kind of response to this quote of the Lord.

[Sola_Fide]

As you should. Stating God is the cause for evil is a serious charge as well.



AB, why don't you read some of the early Church Fathers for the answers. They explain it much better than me.

Seriously??? You can't even give me a brief synopsis off the top of your head? Here is the text again:

Romans 9:14-24 NLT

Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!


For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”


So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.


For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”


So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.


Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”


No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”


When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?


In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.


He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.


And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.

The title of this thread was "Why God Created Evil". I contend that in Romans 9, Scripture gives us the answer. Do you concur? Or do you think the text explains something else? What is the meaning of Romans 9:14-24?

[TER]

Seriously??? You can't even give me a brief synopsis off the top of your head? Here is the text again:

The title of this thread was "Why God Created Evil". I contend that in Romans 9, Scripture gives us the answer. Do you concur? Or do you think the text explains something else? What is the meaning of Romans 9:14-24?

AB, I am working a busy shift right now and don't have time to offer you an explanation that you will just scoff away. Like I said, if you want to learn more, study the writings of the Church from the beginning instead of ignoring a thousand and a half years of saints.

But, if you have the time, I am looking forward to hearing your explanation for the quote of our Lord above. You would be the first Calvinist to provide one. Bet you wont though...

[Sola_Fide]

AB, I am working a busy shift right now and don't have time to offer you an explanation that you will just scoff away. Like I said, if you want to learn more, study the writings of the Church from the beginning instead of ignoring a thousand and a half years of saints.

But, if you have the time, I am looking forward to hearing your explanation for the quote of our Lord above. You would be the first Calvinist to provide one. Bet you wont though...

Do you promise that you will defend your charge of blasphemy against me and exegete the passage in Romans 9 if I exegete the passage in Luke? I am going to assume the answer is yes because you are a fair man.

Luke 13:34 is one of 3 primary verses (out of the entire Bible) that Arminians use to support their position. Yes, there are only 3 primary ones they use. So let's see if Luke 13:34 proves Arminianism.


The text is:

Luke 13:34 NIV

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

I bolded the most important portion of the verse. As James White says:

The ones the Lord desired to gather are NOT the ones who "were not willing"! Jesus speaks to the leaders about their children that they, the leaders, would not allow Him to "gather." Jesus was not seeking to gather the leaders, but their children.

So Jesus is saying to the Pharisees (who just a verse earlier told Him to leave Jerusalem) "I have wanted to gather your children together but you, the corrupt and evil leadership, have not been willing".

How on earth is this verse supposed to prove freewillism? Dr. White goes on to say:

This one consideration alone renders the passage useless for the Arminian seeking to establish freewillism. The "children" of the leaders would be Jews who were hindered by the Jewish leaders from hearing Christ. ( Potter's Freedom, 138, 2nd ed.)

Now, there are 2 other verses (only 2 more in the entire Bible) that Arminians usually use to try to prove freewillism. We Calvinists jokingly call these verses "The Big Three". I would bet money that the next verse you go to will be one of these 3.

And we can get in to all of the passages in Romans, Ephesians, and all of the passages in Luke and John where Jesus CLEARLY teaches the doctrines of grace. I only focused on Romans 9 because I wanted to focus on one passage at a time and not throw a million verses at you.


So...your exegesis of Romans 9 please? Whenever you have the time.

[TER]

so let me get this straight, putting aside the obvious exegesis and common sense in what Christ is saying in the above quote, for 2000 years, the witness of the entire Church according to the saints is all wrong and Mr. James White, born in the 20th century, has figured out what Christ really meant.

Yeah, I'm not buying it.

[Sola_Fide]

so let me get this straight, putting aside the obvious exegesis and common sense in what Christ is saying in the above quote, for 2000 years, the witness of the entire Church according to the saints is all wrong and Mr. James White, born in the 20th century, has figured out what Christ really meant.

Yeah, I'm not buying it.

These appeals to authority are not persuasive to me. I want to know what God's Word says, not what some men in robes tell me what to believe. If the men in robes differ with the Word of God, then its the men in robes who are wrong, not God.

Besides, I am intentionally not trying to engage that argument right now. I am appealing to your fairness, in that, because I attempted to exegete your verse, that you would exegete my passage from Romans 9. Can I count on your fairness?

I am proposing that Romans 9:14-24 shows us that God had a purpose in creating the evil in this world. Can you show me from that passage why I shouldn't believe this? What are your thoughts on this passage?

[TER]

These appeals to authority are not persuasive to me. I want to know what God's Word says, not what some men in robes tell me what to believe. If the men in robes differ with the Word of God, then its the men in robes who are wrong, not God.

Besides, I am intentionally not trying to engage that argument right now. I am appealing to your fairness, in that, because I attempted to exegete your verse, that you would exegete my passage from Romans 9. Can I count on your fairness?

I am proposing that Romans 9:14-24 shows us that God had a purpose in creating the evil in this world. Can you show me from that passage why I shouldn't believe this? What are your thoughts on this passage?

AB, I appreciate your patience. i will try to address you when I can. I'm getting creamed here right now.

[Sola_Fide]

I understand. Whenever man.

[WilliamC]

And here I thought he was just bored.

"God split himself into a myriad parts that he might have friends. This may not be true, but it sounds good, and is no sillier than any other theology."

Lazarus Long, _Time Enough for Love_ by Robert Heinlein

[Sola_Fide]

And here I thought he was just bored.

"God split himself into a myriad parts that he might have friends. This may not be true, but it sounds good, and is no sillier than any other theology."

Lazarus Long, _Time Enough for Love_ by Robert Heinlein

Since the Son has eternally proceeded from the Father, and the Spirit has eternally proceeded from the Father and the Son, there was no point in time where God "split himself up". There has always been love and communication within the Godhead from eternity.

[WilliamC]

Since the Son has eternally proceeded from the Father, and the Spirit has eternally proceeded from the Father and the Son, there was no point in time where God "split himself up". There has always been love and communication within the Godhead from eternity.

That's deep. I think. Well, the sun is a very magic fellow



I won't butt in anymore

[moostraks]

These appeals to authority are not persuasive to me. I want to know what God's Word says, not what some men in robes tell me what to believe. If the men in robes differ with the Word of God, then its the men in robes who are wrong, not God.

Besides, I am intentionally not trying to engage that argument right now. I am appealing to your fairness, in that, because I attempted to exegete your verse, that you would exegete my passage from Romans 9. Can I count on your fairness?

I am proposing that Romans 9:14-24 shows us that God had a purpose in creating the evil in this world. Can you show me from that passage why I shouldn't believe this? What are your thoughts on this passage?

So the men in robes of the church have no value, but the men you choose do? Your disparaging tone towards anyone other than Calvinists is disheartening. Some seem to feel that Mr. White was not all that convincing when it came to his arguments.


http://hbcdelivers.s439.sureserver.com/220


"The book Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views by Dave Hunt and James White (Sisters, OR: Multnomah Publishers, 2004) is a fascinating volume for those who are interested in this important issue.

James White wanted to debate Hunt on this topic, and this new book is the result. With the volume before me, I must say that White has more than met his match. Hunt calmly but enthusiastically answers every point that White makes, while White, in his rebuttals to Hunt, does a lot of huffing and puffing and dodging the issue and pretending that Hunt does not know what he is talking about; but “at the end of the day,” he simply cannot refute Hunt’s doctrine with the Scripture."

Fwiw, an alternative viewpoint to the passages you are discussing, including Luke 13 and Romans 9. http://www.docstoc.com/docs/37438180...S-WHITE-DEBATE

[TER]

I understand. Whenever man.

AB, I wrote a long post, but decided against putting it up. And then I wrote this long post, and then I am going to bed!

I post this video because I think it answers some of our differences.

Be well, my friend.

(its a little hard to follow at times visually, and I had to pause it many times to better understand it, but it is chock full of wisdom)



I hope you watch it.

Sola Scriptura is to Christianity what Progressive Liberalism is to this Constitutional Republic. It is an entirely new way of understanding authority, the meaning of our life, and how one should live in the world. Relying on one's own interpretation of the words of the Holy Bible, even if it has no historical precedence or ever considered a commonly known and agreed upon Christian truth. Are we greater then St. Paul? Or St. Peter? Or those they layed hands on and entrusted the flock to in order to guide, protect, and teach to the truth of Jesus Christ? Consider this, the Holy Spirit Who works within the Church, came as Tongues of Fire over the heads of the Apostles, not as sheets of paper or of a scroll, but as tongues, showing how they would form their Church, by the words spoken by men. Sometimes written down, sometimes said once in the perfect time and in the perfect place, not known to the world, but all the same within the mind and wisdom of the Church even as there were no books and defending the truth of Jesus Christ even at the destruction of their own bodies.

Do not value symbols on pages over the value of blood. Christ came and bled for mankind, He did not sit and right a book.

But the question which might have to be answered first is, why do people put themselves above the saints of the Church? Perhaps we should read about the saints of the Church...

Nevertheless, the understanding of the Church has always been that the Scriptures are inerrant, divinely-inspired, and to be held as an ultimate authority. But the understanding of the Church never separated themselves from the Church in the process of creating the Scriptures! The Scriptures (which was not compiled and canonized until centuries after the Day of Pentecost) were the product of the Church, written by the Church, in order to heed the commandment of the Lord and go and baptize the nations and proclaim His Good News. Baptizing the nations did not include organizing a written text to be as a sole authority for the truth. This came much later, when innovators began to proclaim their own private interpretation against the established interpretation of the Church. In fact, the very reason the Church eventually canonized a book called the New Testament centuries later was to counter the false religions being created in the guise of 'Christianity' and it seemed good to the bishops of the day to answer the call of the people and deliver one, holy, catholic, and apostolic book of Holy Scripture.

But the reality is that for the MAJORITY of history, the MAJORITY of Christians who have ever lived have been ILLITERATE. Here again we see the reason for the Holy Spirit revealing Himself as tongues of fire and not as scrolls or books. It is why St. Paul admonished the Church to stand firm to the teachings they have received, whether in word or epistle. In fact, from always it has involved preaching the teachings of Christ, standing at times in front of the illiterate masses and proclaiming the Gospel of Christ, and adding the newly baptized to the numbers of saints.

You don't doubt the wisdom and truth in the Founding Fathers of this Nation, why do you doubt the wisdom of the Holy Fathers of Christianity? A wisdom that did not limit itself to creating a nation, but to recreate human life and our eternal relationship with God. By Christ, we too become transfigured unto image and likeness of God, just as He created us. By the salvation He made possible through His willing sacrifice for the world. Our goal is not a book of papers and writings of men, though they are a necessary path to our real goal. And that goal is living in the eternal and everlasting loving presence of God. Both now, in this world, even in this flesh, as confirmed by the lives and miracles of the saints, and into the life of the ages to come.

[TomL]

AB, The answer to your question about Romans 9 is simple. Our God is in Heaven and He does whatever pleases Him.

Now the question for you to answer is, did it please God to create sin and evil? If it did not than He did not create evil.

[Sola_Fide]

AB, The answer to your question about Romans 9 is simple. Our God is in Heaven and He does whatever pleases Him.

I agree. God is the Soveriegn Lord who does whatever He intends to do.

Psalm 115:3
New Living Translation (NLT)

Our God is in the heavens,
and he does as he wishes

Now the question for you to answer is, did it please God to create sin and evil? If it did not than He did not create evil.

Then He did create evil for a specific purpose. As Romans 9 14-24 says:

So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”

When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?

In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.

He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.

And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles

( wonder if anyone that is responding in this thread has read Romans 9:14-24 or anyone will attempt to go by line-by-line to understand...hope so!)

[Sola_Fide]

I figure I might as well give the biblical exegesis of the passage in Romans, as briefly and to the point as I can:

Romans 9:16-24

16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

God is the sovereign Lord who shows mercy. We can neither choose our salvation or work for it, because we are dead in sins. Dead men don't work their way out of their death. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, He did not ask Lazarus' permission to raise him. He did it by His own sovereign power and plan. Lazurus responded only after he had been made alive again.

17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”

God hardened Pharoah's heart. He then used the evil of Pharoah for a purpose: to display His power and spread His name throughout the entire earth.

18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

Because God is the sovereign Creator, he can choose to show mercy to sinful people or harden them so they refuse to listen. God is under no obligation to save anyone. We are fallen. We are sinful. We are at enmity with Him. We deserve punishment for our sins.

19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”

Paul, sensing how people are going to object to this (the same objection that many in this thread are having) says what he says in verse 19. People in this thread are saying that God is unfair because we are simply predestined to do what we are going to do. So here is Paul's response to this:

20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?

Who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Can the pot turn around to the Potter who made it and say, "Why did you make me like this?" Of course not. God has the sovereign right to make some pots for a wonderful purpose and He has the right to make some (like Pharoah) for another purpose.

22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.

God has the right to bring His judgement down RIGHT NOW on the people who are sinning against Him, but he is patient to the ones who are destined for destruction. Why does He do this? Answer:

23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.

And there is the answer as to why there is evil in this world. Because out of the destruction of evil men, the riches of GOd's glory are going to be even more wonderful to those who He he predestined for Heaven. The elect will truly know how unworthy they are to have been shown grace.

24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles

From all the people of the earth (Jews and Gentiles, you're either one or the other), God has selected His people to show mercy toward. And he has selected the others to harden.




There is a quick exegesis on my part, which explains the classic Reformed (the Biblical) understanding of Romans 9. I have specifically not talked about any other verses, hoping that we could focus on just one passage at a time in this thread (since the OP mentions it). But many people (I know because I was once one) will recoil at this. You will bring up the exact same objection that the apostle Paul answers in verses 19 and 20.

As Dr. James White says, (He was mentioned in this thread), many people will say they will never worship a God like this...one who chooses to show mercy to some and chooses to harden others. To that, he says he responds, "I know". I know you won't worship a God like this until he takes out your heart of stone and puts in a heart of flesh.