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Thread: Start saving your nickels

  1. #1

    Default Start saving your nickels

    http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com...ckels-now.html

    Going to the bank tomorrow. How much do you think is too much to ask for?
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.



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  3. #2

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    If it was me, I'd probably ask for $250 to $500 worth of nickels at one bank and then go to another bank and do the same thing (even if you're not a member, most banks don't care about making change for people who walk in)

  4. #3

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    Here's my reasons why nickel hoarding is silly

    The good thing is every nickel is worth the same, and nobody wants them, so they're easy to save and spend.

    The reason they're BAD for hoarding purposes is, they are not purely either nickel or copper, meaning they will need to be separated to be used as metal. If you want to hoard copper, buy copper pennies at places such as Portlandmint. If you want nickel, you can also buy canadian 99 coins.

    as for how much is too much to ask for, unlike pennies, you can easily ask for $500-1000 without them asking why. You just need to carry them on your own.

  5. #4

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    Add to that, a nickel coin is mostly copper. So if your goal was hoarding copper, it makes more sense to hoard copper pennies, and you can buy them now in ridiculously low prices. (the price you can buy them for is worth it for the time you save filtering).

    Nickels cost no time to filter or separate, but the coin itself is not pure, so for it to be worth melting for either nickel or copper, you'd spend work for it. And for that, the metal value isn't what it contains. sticking a drop of gold worth $100 inside a pound of aluminum doesn't mean you have $100 plus free aluminum, more like you have gold minus the cost of mining it out.

  6. #5

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    A nickel currently has 5.7 cents of metal in it IF IT WERE SEPARATED. So you'll never be able to sell it for either 3 cents of copper or 2.5 cents of nickel.

    At best, if both metals DOUBLED in price (wanna guess how long that'll take?), you can try selling it for 6 cents of copper, or 5 cents of nickel, not both, certainly not together, so at best case if both metals doubled, you'll barely make back your money of keeping it. But at worst you can spend it as 5 cents, so there's that.

    Contrast this with copper pennies, you can buy $100 face value copper pennies (pre-filtered for you) for $170. That's less than double the face value, and melt value is already 2.5 cents each. BOTH PENNIES AND NICKELS ARE ILLEGAL TO MELT. But if we applied the above scenario, that copper doubled in price, your pennies will be worth 5 cents each, while your nickels will be hard to sell for more than 5 cents each. (both of these are useless until the melt ban is repealed)

    If copper and nickel prices DO NOT double, you'll never make back your money on nickels, you can only spend it as 5 cents. But pennies will be worth around 2.5 cents, which you paid 1.7 cent for. Go figure.
    Last edited by onlyrp; 02-13-2012 at 08:47 PM.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    At best, if both metals DOUBLED in price (wanna guess how long that'll take?)
    Two three years, tops? Not too long after banks start finally blowing some of that wonderful stimulus out of their butts. But that's just my prediction, as I believe everything is about to go up.

    And the value is "melt value", meaning metal composition and content only - not actual "melted" value, any more than the melt value of a mercury dime means that someone intends to melt them down. Nobody needs to melt down their Mercury dimes or any other minted coins. Part of the value is in the fact that it is minted, which means it has a known, recognizable quantity of given metals, the value of which are governed in large part by scarcity. That makes nickels a bona fide "store" of value - no melt costs required or involved. As the intrinsic metal value per unit price gap widens, nickels will ultimately be minted differently, and when that happens, the old ones will disappear from circulation, just like any other coinage following Gresham's [very predictable] Law. At that point nickels will no longer trade for five cents fiat, any more than silver dimes do now.

    So no, as a long term store of value, it's not silly at all. With nickels (25% nickel, 75% copper) and copper pennies you don't have to wonder about their content, and when it comes down to it, not too many people are concerned about a law forbidding them from being melted down.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    Two three years, tops? Not too long after banks start finally blowing some of that wonderful stimulus out of their butts. But that's just my prediction, as I believe everything is about to go up.

    And the value is "melt value", meaning metal composition and content only - not actual "melted" value, any more than the melt value of a mercury dime means that someone intends to melt them down. Nobody needs to melt down their Mercury dimes or any other minted coins. Part of the value is in the fact that it is minted, which means it has a known, recognizable quantity of given metals, the value of which are governed in large part by scarcity. That makes nickels a bona fide "store" of value - no melt costs required or involved. As the intrinsic metal value per unit price gap widens, nickels will ultimately be minted differently, and when that happens, the old ones will disappear from circulation, just like any other coinage following Gresham's [very predictable] Law. At that point nickels will no longer trade for five cents fiat, any more than silver dimes do now.

    So no, as a long term store of value, it's not silly at all. With nickels (25% nickel, 75% copper) and copper pennies you don't have to wonder about their content, and when it comes down to it, not too many people are concerned about a law forbidding them from being melted down.
    thanks. you are correct that it's not silly on its own, I was only trying to say, there's an easier, better option, which is hoarding copper pennies.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    Two three years, tops? Not too long after banks start finally blowing some of that wonderful stimulus out of their butts. But that's just my prediction, as I believe everything is about to go up.

    And the value is "melt value", meaning metal composition and content only - not actual "melted" value, any more than the melt value of a mercury dime means that someone intends to melt them down. Nobody needs to melt down their Mercury dimes or any other minted coins. Part of the value is in the fact that it is minted, which means it has a known, recognizable quantity of given metals, the value of which are governed in large part by scarcity. That makes nickels a bona fide "store" of value - no melt costs required or involved. As the intrinsic metal value per unit price gap widens, nickels will ultimately be minted differently, and when that happens, the old ones will disappear from circulation, just like any other coinage following Gresham's [very predictable] Law. At that point nickels will no longer trade for five cents fiat, any more than silver dimes do now.

    So no, as a long term store of value, it's not silly at all. With nickels (25% nickel, 75% copper) and copper pennies you don't have to wonder about their content, and when it comes down to it, not too many people are concerned about a law forbidding them from being melted down.
    I'm still not convinced of the "intrinsic value" claim. Value is pretty subjective. Gary North put it well:

    There is a basic confusion here. The confusion rests on a mixing up of two very different proposi tions: (1) gold and silver are his torically valuable; and (2) gold and silver haveintrinsic value. The first proposition is indisputably correct; in fact, there are few eco nomic or historical statements that could be said to be more absolute. Professor Mises has built his whole theory of money on the fact that gold and silver (especially gold) were first valued because of properties other than their mone tary function: brilliance, malle ability, social prestige, and so forth. It was precisely because people valued these metals so highly that they were to become instruments of trade, i.e., money.4 Since they are so readily market*able, more so than other goods, they can become money.
    Today we value silver and gold for many reasons, and on first glance, monetary purposes are not the main ones for most people. That is because so few populations are legally permitted to use gold in trade, and the statist policies of inflation have brought Gresham’s famous law into operation: silver coins have gone into hoards, since the value of their silver content is greater than their face value as coins. But on the international markets, gold has not yet been de throned; governments and central banks do not always trust each other, but they do trust the historic value of gold.
    Why this historic value? I do not want to involve myself in a rarefied philosophical debate con cerning metaphysics, but I think it is safe to say that gold does have certain intrinsic qualities. It is highly durable, easily divisible, transportable, and most of all, it is scarce.Money must be all of these, to one degree or another, if it is to function as a means of ex*change. It is vital that we get our categories straight in our minds: it is not value that is intrinsic to gold, but only the physical properties that are valued by acting men. Gold’s physical properties are the product of nature; its value is the product of acting men.
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  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I'm still not convinced of the "intrinsic value" claim. Value is pretty subjective. Gary North put it well:

    There is a basic confusion here. The confusion rests on a mixing up of two very different propositions: (1) gold and silver are historically valuable; and (2) gold and silver haveintrinsic value...
    Gary North is only making what I believe to be a common contemporary error himself, not just in the mixing of two very different propositions, but the conflation of two very different definitions of the same word. Define the words correctly, and there is no error.

    My correction would be: (1) gold and silver have historic monetary value, because (2) they are, physically, intrinsically, gold and silver... What are those intrinsic values? Specific, non-subjective values of weight, mass, purity, etc., of a specific constituent, like gold, or silver. So, 1 gram of gold, .999 fine, is an intrinsic value.

    North touches on this farther down, when he says the following (corrections and emphasis mine):

    It is vital that we get our categories straight in our minds: it is not [economic] value that is intrinsic to gold, but only the physical properties, [which are the intrinsic values in and of themselves, like weight, mass, purity, etc.,] which are [only incidentally, economically] valued by acting men.

    Intrinsic value is not subjective value, therefore, only because it is not the economic definition of value that is being used. If someone argues that gold and silver have intrinsic economic value, regardless of the reasons, I would disagree. Those are extrinsic values at all times - intrinsic only to each acting individual, and each for their own reasons, but never intrinsic to gold and silver.

  11. #10

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    I'm not going to bother messing with nickels. I do hoard pre82 pennies however. I don't think alot of people understand that even thow copper is trading at near $4 a pound you will never be able to sell a pound of pennies(much less nickels...less copper) at $4. They are not 100% which requires extra processing. You will not be able to to take them to the mill yourself for the premium price as mills generally are not open to the public. You will have to deal with a scrap dealer or another middle man who will take a profit ofcourse. If pennies were legal to melt down right now and copper was going at $4 a pound I figure you would get about $2.00 a pound for them...maybe $2.50 if you're lucky. Not a massive profit...50 cents to a dollar a pound. But better than nickels when you consider the face value vs the scrap value.


    Edit:

    91 nickels = 1 pound = $4.55 face value
    148 pennies = 1 pound = $1.48 face value


    See what I'm getting at here....
    Last edited by xFiFtyOnE; 02-14-2012 at 02:52 PM.
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  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by xFiFtyOnE View Post
    I'm not going to bother messing with nickels. I do hoard pre82 pennies however. I don't think alot of people understand that even thow copper is trading at near $4 a pound you will never be able to sell a pound of pennies(much less nickels...less copper) at $4. They are not 100% which requires extra processing. You will not be able to to take them to the mill yourself for the premium price as mills generally are not open to the public. You will have to deal with a scrap dealer or another middle man who will take a profit ofcourse. If pennies were legal to melt down right now and copper was going at $4 a pound I figure you would get about $2.00 a pound for them...maybe $2.50 if you're lucky. Not a massive profit...50 cents to a dollar a pound. But better than nickels when you consider the face value vs the scrap value.


    Edit:

    91 nickels = 1 pound = $4.55 face value
    148 pennies = 1 pound = $1.48 face value


    See what I'm getting at here....
    they are not 100% copper, just 95%, which is more pure than 90% silver coins.
    You can buy them now at 1.70 face value, and melting will probably become easier when melt ban is gone, and people can melt them legally.
    Sure, it won't be actual melt value, just better than nickels, and less risk than silver and gold for those who can't afford it.

    So basically what you're saying is, at max you can get 50% of the actual metal value even if it was pure? That's very good information, thanks.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    they are not 100% copper, just 95%, which is more pure than 90% silver coins.
    You can buy them now at 1.70 face value, and melting will probably become easier when melt ban is gone, and people can melt them legally.
    Sure, it won't be actual melt value, just better than nickels, and less risk than silver and gold for those who can't afford it.

    So basically what you're saying is, at max you can get 50% of the actual metal value even if it was pure? That's very good information, thanks.
    Not max 50%. But on average, I would figure. Just a guess from a guy who works in the scrap industry. :P
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  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by xFiFtyOnE View Post
    Not max 50%. But on average, I would figure. Just a guess from a guy who works in the scrap industry. :P
    Thanks. What metals do you do and what aspect? Collection? Melting?

    This is very interesting to me

  15. #14

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    Even though a US nickel is not pure nickel nor pure copper (75% copper, 25% nickel) a cupro-nickel blend is useful in the musical instrument and plumbing industries. No separation costs are required. If a different blend is needed, then the required amount of copper or nickel can be added to the US nickel blend to get the desired ratio.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by huckans View Post
    Even though a US nickel is not pure nickel nor pure copper (75% copper, 25% nickel) a cupro-nickel blend is useful in the musical instrument and plumbing industries. No separation costs are required. If a different blend is needed, then the required amount of copper or nickel can be added to the US nickel blend to get the desired ratio.
    thanks for that. Then I guess you can get to work

  17. #16

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    You may never need to sell them for scrap, it would be a good barter medium.

    The banks have them by $100 a box, ask ahead and they'll should have you one for you by the following week.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    thanks. you are correct that it's not silly on its own, I was only trying to say, there's an easier, better option, which is hoarding copper pennies.
    Pennies are much more bulky to save. More efficient to do nickels, plus you don't have to sort through nickels to pick out the right ones. I can order $2000(which I did) worth of nickels and I know all are the same.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arklatex View Post
    You may never need to sell them for scrap, it would be a good barter medium.

    The banks have them by $100 a box, ask ahead and they'll should have you one for you by the following week.
    Exactly, just like I never plan on melting down my scrap silver. When the metal in a coin has value greater than the denomination, I have no problem collecting them at face value.

    I have no doubt that in 5 years I will be able to bring these to a coin shop and sell then for 2, 3 or more times their face value.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Pennies are much more bulky to save. More efficient to do nickels, plus you don't have to sort through nickels to pick out the right ones. I can order $2000(which I did) worth of nickels and I know all are the same.
    I said earlier, if you wish to hoard pennies, you can buy them today in bulk.
    http://portlandmint.com/products.php $2000 can get you quite a lot (they do nickels too, but easier to do that with your bank)

    You are correct that copper is more bulky than nickel, as is nickel to silver and silver to gold. Bulky is for the people who either have space, don't have money, or have the patience to wait.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Exactly, just like I never plan on melting down my scrap silver. When the metal in a coin has value greater than the denomination, I have no problem collecting them at face value.

    I have no doubt that in 5 years I will be able to bring these to a coin shop and sell then for 2, 3 or more times their face value.
    In 5 years you'll be able to sell them for 2 times face value?
    Good luck with that.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Pennies are much more bulky to save. More efficient to do nickels, plus you don't have to sort through nickels to pick out the right ones. I can order $2000(which I did) worth of nickels and I know all are the same.
    Unless you get lucky and get the odd Jefferson War nickel - 1942-1945, partly silver. And those are very good store of value, btw, as they aren't nearly as popular as coins like Mercury dimes, so you don't pay as much of a premium, even when silver is up and selling a lot over spot.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    Unless you get lucky and get the odd Jefferson War nickel - 1942-1945, partly silver. And those are very good store of value, btw, as they aren't nearly as popular as coins like Mercury dimes, so you don't pay as much of a premium, even when silver is up and selling a lot over spot.
    Yeah that would be a nice bonus. I won't be "coin roll hunting" though these though. They will just be sitting in my closet collecting dust.

    I will be ordering a 2 boxes of half dollars though to sort through to hopefully find some silver. That is always fun.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Yeah that would be a nice bonus. I won't be "coin roll hunting" though these though. They will just be sitting in my closet collecting dust.

    I will be ordering a 2 boxes of half dollars though to sort through to hopefully find some silver. That is always fun.
    what's the success rate for that? I wonder.

    I've thought of digging through copper only boxes for wheat or Indian heads, but I'm sure its too low to be worth it.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    what's the success rate for that? I wonder.

    I've thought of digging through copper only boxes for wheat or Indian heads, but I'm sure its too low to be worth it.
    I have done it several times. The least I have found was 2 40% silver pieces. The most was about 5 90% pieces with a few 40% pieces. I would say on average 3 or 4 pieces out of a box($500) has silver.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    I have done it several times. The least I have found was 2 40% silver pieces. The most was about 5 90% pieces with a few 40% pieces. I would say on average 3 or 4 pieces out of a box($500) has silver.
    wow, so about 3 $10 value coins per $500? That's not bad at all.
    That's an instant 6-10% earning. That might be a better use of your time then to sit on bulky nickels, if you can repeat it enough. But I know it's probably hard to get a bank to keep giving them to you.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    wow, so about 3 $10 value coins per $500? That's not bad at all.
    That's an instant 6-10% earning. That might be a better use of your time then to sit on bulky nickels, if you can repeat it enough. But I know it's probably hard to get a bank to keep giving them to you.
    Well not all are 90%, but I would say on average you collect $15 or $20 per box. If the bank didn't care I would be doing it all the time, but I don't want to get under their skin. I haven't done it in a couple of months, but I am going to start back up again. Make sure your bank has an auto coin counter.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Well not all are 90%, but I would say on average you collect $15 or $20 per box. If the bank didn't care I would be doing it all the time, but I don't want to get under their skin. I haven't done it in a couple of months, but I am going to start back up again. Make sure your bank has an auto coin counter.
    they sell on eBay for $13+, check it yourself.
    you're talking 1964 Kennedy, right?
    Hahaha, at least the half dollars are easier to spend back.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    they sell on eBay for $13+, check it yourself.
    you're talking 1964 Kennedy, right?
    Hahaha, at least the half dollars are easier to spend back.
    there are 40% and 90% silver pieces. 1964 and before is 90%, after is 40%.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    Thanks. What metals do you do and what aspect? Collection? Melting?

    This is very interesting to me
    I'm a buyer for a large recycling company(www.emrltd.com). At the location I work at we buy everything from aluminum cans to scrap barges and everything in between...copper, alu, monel, hastelloy, nickel...etc. Just about the only metals we don't mess with would be precious metals, gold, silver and hazardous metals like mercury. We don't do the melting here. We sell the material to mills after we process it (cut to size, clean, remove foreign material).
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  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by xFiFtyOnE View Post
    I'm a buyer for a large recycling company(www.emrltd.com). At the location I work at we buy everything from aluminum cans to scrap barges and everything in between...copper, alu, monel, hastelloy, nickel...etc. Just about the only metals we don't mess with would be precious metals, gold, silver and hazardous metals like mercury. We don't do the melting here. We sell the material to mills after we process it (cut to size, clean, remove foreign material).
    so let me ask you, after processed, how close to "spot price" can you sell them to melters?

    And doesn't that mean you'll have a great advantage over the average Joe if you hoarded copper pennies yourself, since you can save yourself the cleaning and processing time, AND have easy access to melting mills?

    Thanks for this info, it's very interesting.

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