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Thread: Bill Still criticizing Ron Pauls idea about sound money

  1. #11

    Default

    What is the difference between gold and paper besides scarcity? There are some obvious points - gold in nearly indestructible, has industrial and electronic uses, and is useful for jewelery - would you give your wife a gold ring and a gold necklace or a paper ring and a paper necklace? Gold is scarce and that's part of why it's valuable. People value scarce things - what would you rather have an original Mona Lisa painting or or replica? What would you rather have an original Micky Mantle rookie card or a replica? An original copy of Oliver Twist autographed by Charles Dickens or a reprint with a replicated autograph? Extend the argument to gold and silver coins - what would you rather have - a quarter from 1964 (90% silver) or a quarter from 2011?

    Gold is "backed by" gold and silver is "backed by" silver. Gold and silver are scarce and have value because of supply and demand. Try asking someone - what is an original Honus Wagner tocacco card "backed by"?

    Paper dollars are backed by the skin off your back. You do labor, you get paid, the government demands a cut of your wages in taxes paid for in paper dollars and withholds it at the source whenever possible (like a serf or a skilled slave who was paid)



  • #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    Right now you can not freely transact in any currency you wish. Legal tender laws deny you recourse if someone were to pay you in Federal Reserve notes instead of your desired currency. There are sales taxes and capital gains taxes on gold ans silver bullion.
    No, you CAN freely transact as long as both parties agree, and if you entered into an agreement , contract on what to exchange, they are bound to uphold the agreement of what to use. You have no "recourse" unless you agreed in advance, and similarly, without such an agreement, nobody can force you to accept anything other than legal tender dollars. You are correct, there are sales and capital gains taxes on precious metals, and bartering is still taxable.

  • #13

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    At 1:12:00 he starts banging the table that "we've had deregulation the past 10 years" and "there's one thing you absolutely positively must have under government control and that's the quantity of money" and "there's no free market - it's a bunch of high-frequency trading computers". If I'd been sitting at the table I'd have been running away to escape the three lightning bolts.

    Then he (correctly) identifies the manipulation of the money supply by banks as a central cause of the Great Depression without pointing out that such manipulation cannot occur when the money supply is coinage rather than paper and digital fiat!

  • #14

    Default Some points to consider

    "First off, "debt free" money is bullshit"
    I don't agree with this. A gold coin is debt free money. A paper note, whether backed by gold, some other commodity, land, a government promise to ensure value through use of force, or anything else for that matter is money backed by a promise to pay - i.e. debt.

    Debt money naturally arises from fractional reserve banking (which is by definition the creation of debt notes beyond the underlying quantity of money) and initially causes price increases as the quantity of money (now including this debt money) in circulation increases. The effect of allowing banks to create money this way is to transfer wealth to the creators of the money as they get to buy goods at the prevailing price before the money is created, and as the money circulates the price of the acquired goods then rises so it is worth more than the debt incurred to create the money to originally purchase the good. In other words this is simply a subtle mechanism for theft.

    The charging of interest by the federal reserve bank is red herring. Yes they repay the interest - but they don't need the interest in order to make money - they make money purely through the process of money creation and consequent asset inflation.

    The problem with all this from the banks' perspective is that the system I have described is naturally an oscillating system. That is, after a period of expansion there will be a period of contraction, during which time the process works in reverse and banks lose money. It is for this reason, that banks have had to ensure that the politicians create a legal structure which allows them to hang on to their ill gotten gains.


    Firstly corporations must be legalized to shield bankers from their obligations. This allow bankers to pay themselves during the expansion stage, and having paid themselves all the artifical "profits", they are sheltered by the law from making good on the debts when the bank goes bust.

    Secondly, regulation and licensing must make it very difficult for most people to print money. Only the special interests can be allowed access to this tool.

    Thirdly politicians must directly intervene to protect banks from failing either by bailing them out, or allowing them to default on their obligations (e.g. suspension of payment in specie) until another round of inflation can be generated.

    Fourthly, the mechanics of how all this works must be hidden from observation so people don't get angry.


    There are additional issues with our current system that make it even worse than gold backed government debt money, but they are incidental to my main point.

    So the problem with debt money is not that the government pays interest to the federal reserve bank - it doesn't - or rather all that money is repaid by the fed as has been noted here. It is that the business cycle inherent in fractional reserve banking, together with the political environment that has been created around the banking system, acts to transfer money to those special interests who have managed to acquire banking licenses.

    Good points, sorry to ask but aside from peoples belief that Gold is money, what kind of difference is there to Gold vs Paper aside from scarcity?
    Well that's a pretty big difference isn't it? Money serves three basic purposes.

    1. Unit of exchange.
    2. Store of value.
    3. Unit of account.

    In order to serve as a store of value it is important that whatever is used as money is not subject to arbitrary increases in supply. Government money fails this test. Any government money fails this test, but government gold is much harder for governments to manipulate than government paper, precisely because it is much harder for goverments to create more of it - so government gold is better than government paper, but free market money is better than either - because the free market will naturally choose whatever commodity best fits the purpose.

    Money will naturally evolve from a free market - it does not require government intervention for people to freely select one or more commodities to use as money. Historically they have usually chosen precious metals when and where they were available - because these substances best provide the essential qualities that money needs to be useful (per Aristotle: durability, fungibility, portability and intrinsic value, where it is the last that encapsulates the problem of government assigned value to a coomonly available underlying commodity). Other commodities have also been used as money in different places and times (corn, whiskey, cattle, cigarettes, sardine cans, seashells), and gold may not always be the best money. Cerainly if science discovered a way to create gold cheaply from some other more common metal (e.g. lead - the legendary alchemist's dream) then it would likely cease to be used as money.

    For your friend who wants to know why gold is more useful than paper as money, there are three approaches you might use to make him think (I doubt you'll convince him in the first discussion).

    The one I use on my children is to invite them to play a game of monopoly. I tell them I will be the banker and we will make one rule change - that I am allowed to print as much money as I like. Even my five year old understands what will happen - and it illustrates very clearly the problem of paper money - if someone gets to make a lot of it, they get to own everything. From my perspective there is no difference between me jumping over your orchard wall and stealing five apples and me disappearing into my basement, printing some dollars and buying your apples - except that I am less likely to get caught because instead of robbing one person, my counterfeiting has socialized the loss across the entire population of money users who each bear an almost imperceptible cost, most of whom never see me or my crime.

    You could ask your friend whether he believes in free markets and why they are better than regulated markets. then ask him why he feels that the same arguments don't apply to money. Obviously if your friend doesn't believe in free markets then this isn't going to work, but then I think you are also starting in the wrong place. If somebody does not understand and believe in freedom in general, then you will never convince them that free money is a good idea. You need to convince them of the value of freedom and free markets in general first.

    You might also ask him whether, if he possessed an ounce of gold, whether he would be willing to swap it for a quantity of paper equal in size and weight to eighteen hundred dollar bills. If he declines, point out to him that he is making a value judgment about which good he'd rather have and ask him why he assigns more value to the gold. Then ask him what he uses money for - prompt him if necessary to get the store value answer - saving for a rainy day or something similar. Then ask him which has a better track record of storing value over the last 1,000 years - gold (which has never failed) or paper money which has failed hundreds of times... But you should also admit that in this modern day and age - their might be better alternatives than gold. Perhaps bitcoins - although I personally doubt it. We will never know without a free market to choose.

    Above all you need to read, read and read more. I could give you a long list of authors - and you should read widely - it's interesting for one. But if you are short on time - then just stick to Rothbard. He explains everything you need to know and he explains it more clearly than anybody else I have read. You could start with "What has Government Done to Our Money?". "The Ethics of Liberty" is also a great read, although only tangentially related to the monetary topic. The other books I have read which most influenced my early opinions and helped ready me for further reading were Bastiat's "The Law" and Ayn Rand's "Philosophy who needs it?" - although again not directly related to the topic at hand..

    RebelYell
    Last edited by RebelYell; 02-13-2012 at 09:51 PM.

  • #15

    Default

    There are four options. I have had a debate with my economics students. I put it this way:


    Option 1: Independent Central Bank (The Fed) Keynesian School
    The best way to conduct monetary policy is through an independent central bank issuing fiat currency that is free from government interference. Elected officials only want to win the next election and will use monetary policy for short-term gains rather than long-term stability. Economists and bankers educated in monetary policy should be entrusted to make decisions that keep the economy growing at a steady rate by controlling the business cycle and preventing bank runs by stabilizing financial markets with injections of liquidity into the banking system.

    Option 2: National Bank (Greenbacks) The American School
    The best way to conduct monetary policy is for the people’s representatives to issue debt-free fiat currency. Monetary policy is a power given to Congress and as the people’s representatives they have a duty to make sure that the country has a stable currency. Money should be issued when the government spends money through infrastructure projects and should be destroyed when collected through taxes. Banks may apply for emergency funding from the U.S. Treasury in the case of a bank run but will not be offered a constant line of credit.

    Option 3: The Gold Standard The Classical School
    The best way to conduct monetary policy is through a government mandated gold standard. Gold has historically been the finest commodity for trade and saving therefore the government should mandate that gold is the official currency of the United States. Neither government officials nor central bankers can be trusted to control the money supply therefore monetary policy should be set by gold, man’s most nature form of money. Only gold shall be used to pay taxes and debts within the United States and all gold shall be mint from government facilities.

    Option 4: Competing Currencies The Austrian School
    The best way to conduct monetary policy is by allowing money to be chosen like all other commodities, in a free market. Historically gold and silver have been chosen by man as the most preferred forms of money but that should not stop people for trading in other commodities. If there are shortages of gold and silver a strict gold standard will cause crippling deflation. Instead of an official gold standard people should be free to trade and save in anything including gold, silver, platinum, copper, nickel, coal, tobacco etc. that will hold its value and others will accept.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  • #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RebelYell View Post
    I don't agree with this. A gold coin is debt free money. A paper note, whether backed by gold, some other commodity, land, a government promise to ensure value through use of force, or anything else for that matter is money backed by a promise to pay - i.e. debt.

    Debt money naturally arises from fractional reserve banking (which is by definition the creation of debt notes beyond the underlying quantity of money) and initially causes price increases as the quantity of money (now including this debt money) in circulation increases. The effect of allowing banks to create money this way is to transfer wealth to the creators of the money as they get to buy goods at the prevailing price before the money is created, and as the money circulates the price of the acquired goods then rises so it is worth more than the debt incurred to create the money to originally purchase the good. In other words this is simply a subtle mechanism for theft.

    The charging of interest by the federal reserve bank is red herring. Yes they repay the interest - but they don't need the interest in order to make money - they make money purely through the process of money creation and consequent asset inflation.

    The problem with all this from the banks' perspective is that the system I have described is naturally an oscillating system. That is, after a period of expansion there will be a period of contraction, during which time the process works in reverse and banks lose money. It is for this reason, that banks have had to ensure that the politicians create a legal structure which allows them to hang on to their ill gotten gains.

    Firstly corporations must be legalized to shield bankers from their obligations. This allow bankers to pay themselves during the expansion stage, and having paid themselves all the artifical "profits", they are sheltered by the law from making good on the debts when the bank goes bust.

    Secondly, regulation and licensing must make it very difficult for most people to print money. Only the special interests can be allowed access to this tool.

    Thirdly politicians must directly intervene to protect banks from failing either by bailing them out, or allowing them to default on their obligations (e.g. suspension of payment in specie) until another round of inflation can be generated.

    Fourthly, the mechanics of how all this works must be hidden from observation so people don't get angry.


    There are additional issues with our current system that make it even worse than gold backed government debt money, but they are incidental to my main point.

    So the problem with debt money is not that the government pays interest to the federal reserve bank - it doesn't - or rather all that money is repaid by the fed as has been noted here. It is that the business cycle inherent in fractional reserve banking, together with the political environment that has been created around the banking system, acts to transfer money to those special interests who have managed to acquire banking licenses.



    Well that's a pretty big difference isn't it? Money serves three basic purposes.

    1. Unit of exchange.
    2. Store of value.
    3. Unit of account.

    In order to serve as a store of value it is important that whatever is used as money is not subject to arbitrary increases in supply. Government money fails this test. Any government money fails this test, but government gold is much harder for governments to manipulate than government paper, precisely because it is much harder for goverments to create more of it - so government gold is better than government paper, but free market money is better than either - because the free market will naturally choose whatever commodity best fits the purpose.

    Money will naturally evolve from a free market - it does not require government intervention for people to freely select one or more commodities to use as money. Historically they have usually chosen precious metals when and where they were available - because these substances best provide the essential qualities that money needs to be useful (per Aristotle: durability, fungibility, portability and intrinsic value, where it is the last that encapsulates the problem of government assigned value to a coomonly available underlying commodity). Other commodities have also been used as money in different places and times (corn, whiskey, cattle, cigarettes, sardine cans, seashells), and gold may not always be the best money. Cerainly if science discovered a way to create gold cheaply from some other more common metal (e.g. lead - the legendary alchemist's dream) then it would likely cease to be used as money.

    For your friend who wants to know why gold is more useful than paper as money, there are three approaches you might use to make him think (I doubt you'll convince him in the first discussion).

    The one I use on my children is to invite them to play a game of monopoly. I tell them I will be the banker and we will make one rule change - that I am allowed to print as much money as I like. Even my five year old understands what will happen - and it illustrates very clearly the problem of paper money - if someone gets to make a lot of it, they get to own everything. From my perspective there is no difference between me jumping over your orchard wall and stealing five apples and me disappearing into my basement, printing some dollars and buying your apples - except that I am less likely to get caught because instead of robbing one person, my counterfeiting has socialized the loss across the entire population of money users who each bear an almost imperceptible cost, most of whom never see me or my crime.

    You could ask your friend whether he believes in free markets and why they are better than regulated markets. then ask him why he feels that the same arguments don't apply to money. Obviously if your friend doesn't believe in free markets then this isn't going to work, but then I think you are also starting in the wrong place. If somebody does not understand and believe in freedom in general, then you will never convince them that free money is a good idea. You need to convince them of the value of freedom and free markets in general first.

    You might also ask him whether, if he possessed an ounce of gold, whether he would be willing to swap it for a quantity of paper equal in size and weight to eighteen hundred dollar bills. If he declines, point out to him that he is making a value judgment about which good he'd rather have and ask him why he assigns more value to the gold. Then ask him what he uses money for - prompt him if necessary to get the store value answer - saving for a rainy day or something similar. Then ask him which has a better track record of storing value over the last 1,000 years - gold (which has never failed) or paper money which has failed hundreds of times... But you should also admit that in this modern day and age - their might be better alternatives than gold. Perhaps bitcoins - although I personally doubt it. We will never know without a free market to choose.

    Above all you need to read, read and read more. I could give you a long list of authors - and you should read widely - it's interesting for one. But if you are short on time - then just stick to Rothbard. He explains everything you need to know and he explains it more clearly than anybody else I have read. You could start with "What has Government Done to Our Money?". "The Ethics of Liberty" is also a great read, although only tangentially related to the monetary topic. The other books I have read which most influenced my early opinions and helped ready me for further reading were Bastiat's "The Law" and Ayn Rand's "Philosophy who needs it?" - although again not directly related to the topic at hand..

    RebelYell
    Correct. However, it should be pointed out that we must be specific when we talk about a "gold standard". Governments have historically abused such standards, even when currency debauchery is officially illegal. The solution is free-market money. /end ramble
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.


  • #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    There are four options. I have had a debate with my economics students. I put it this way:


    Option 1: Independent Central Bank (The Fed) Keynesian School
    The best way to conduct monetary policy is through an independent central bank issuing fiat currency that is free from government interference. Elected officials only want to win the next election and will use monetary policy for short-term gains rather than long-term stability. Economists and bankers educated in monetary policy should be entrusted to make decisions that keep the economy growing at a steady rate by controlling the business cycle and preventing bank runs by stabilizing financial markets with injections of liquidity into the banking system.

    Option 2: National Bank (Greenbacks) The American School
    The best way to conduct monetary policy is for the people’s representatives to issue debt-free fiat currency. Monetary policy is a power given to Congress and as the people’s representatives they have a duty to make sure that the country has a stable currency. Money should be issued when the government spends money through infrastructure projects and should be destroyed when collected through taxes. Banks may apply for emergency funding from the U.S. Treasury in the case of a bank run but will not be offered a constant line of credit.

    Option 3: The Gold Standard The Classical School
    The best way to conduct monetary policy is through a government mandated gold standard. Gold has historically been the finest commodity for trade and saving therefore the government should mandate that gold is the official currency of the United States. Neither government officials nor central bankers can be trusted to control the money supply therefore monetary policy should be set by gold, man’s most nature form of money. Only gold shall be used to pay taxes and debts within the United States and all gold shall be mint from government facilities.

    Option 4: Competing Currencies The Austrian School
    The best way to conduct monetary policy is by allowing money to be chosen like all other commodities, in a free market. Historically gold and silver have been chosen by man as the most preferred forms of money but that should not stop people for trading in other commodities. If there are shortages of gold and silver a strict gold standard will cause crippling deflation. Instead of an official gold standard people should be free to trade and save in anything including gold, silver, platinum, copper, nickel, coal, tobacco etc. that will hold its value and others will accept.
    Nice! You're an awesome teacher!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.


  • #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nedomedo View Post
    Good points, sorry to ask but aside from peoples belief that Gold is money, what kind of difference is there to Gold vs Paper aside from scarcity?
    Paper money is a letter of trust in the government issuing it. Gold (or silver) is an insurance policy against government failure.

    Ten silver dimes ($1.00) would buy you 6 gallons of gas in 1939. Ten silver dimes (at current silver prices) also buys you 6 gallons of gas today (a dime had .07234 oz. of pure silver, .07234 * 10 dimes = .7234 ounces, at a spot price of 33.60 an ounce that's $24.13, which will buy a little over 6 gallons of gas).

    It's amazing how simple monetary policy really is when you adhere to the Constitution's instructions to coin money rather than print it! And it also proves that the people who say "a gold or silver standard wouldn't work today" just don't understand how workable it was for long parts of American history.

  • #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    No, you CAN freely transact as long as both parties agree, and if you entered into an agreement , contract on what to exchange, they are bound to uphold the agreement of what to use. You have no "recourse" unless you agreed in advance, and similarly, without such an agreement, nobody can force you to accept anything other than legal tender dollars. You are correct, there are sales and capital gains taxes on precious metals, and bartering is still taxable.
    I don't think I agree with your point here. First of all, freely transacting would necessarily require that there were no tax consequences from transacting in gold. Tax, extracted by government coercion, is the precise opposite of a free market.

    Secondly, there are myriad ways that the government meddles with the currency markets to ensure that the playing field is not level:

    • attacking competing currencies with propaganda, confiscation, prosecution and/or onerous regulation (e.g. e-gold, liberty dollar, goldmoney as three examples that spring to mind).
    • legal tender laws
    • taxation of "gains" measured in another, government currency
    • excessive (or in fact) any reporting requirements
    • requiring payment of taxes in US paper dollars.
    These are all ways in which the government inhibits rival currencies from free competition.

    RebelYell
    Last edited by RebelYell; 02-13-2012 at 10:08 PM.

  • #20
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    Default

    So we would want gold because we know bankers can't increase the supply at will? It keeps them in check and our economy stable.

    What is the worst thing banks can do with a gold standard? The only negative is if they hoard it right? They would have to mine a lot to increase supply.
    Would our economy grow faster or slower on a gold standard? Or it would grow slower but it would be steadier over time, so long term it would do better than debt free money?

    Its crazy to think about, if we all of a sudden went to a gold standard we could massively start mining and pay our debt really fast. It would be interesting to know how much money does it cost to extract like an ounce of Gold.

    The only way a debt free money system would even function is if all the people were experts in money and we all paid attention what the government does and kept it in check ourselves.

    Kind of like the whole benevolent dictator argument lol it's rare but it happens.

    When we reach that point I don't think we will even be having discussions like this anymore. Saddest thing in the world in my opinion is lack of facts and truth. Its so stupid we have to even debate this, why can't there be one factual system that we know works.
    Last edited by nedomedo; 02-13-2012 at 10:11 PM.

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