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Thread: The Bible states that Israel will be gathered in 2018 not 1948 (Israel is a fraud)

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    John, I am very much enjoying this debate. I just got up and have to go to work, but I will address some of the important things you have brought up when I have more time.
    I'm busy over the weekend, but will get back to you next week.

    In the meantime, please tell me the history of the Scriptures which you see as the only source of authority. That is, which version, which translation, containing which books and approved by which Church.
    In the meantime . . .

    The Hebrew / Aramaic scriptures as found in the Masoretic text, and the Greek Scriptures as accepted by Church Fathers such as Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzus, etc. As for translations into English, I don't believe any one translation can claim to be be the final authority. The men who received them from God got them in the original languages, and hence the text as originally written down is the most authoratative. Ad fontes!
    "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand." - John Adams

    "He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind." - John Witherspoon


    Why I stand with Rand



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    I'm busy over the weekend, but will get back to you next week.



    In the meantime . . .

    The Hebrew / Aramaic scriptures as found in the Masoretic text, and the Greek Scriptures as accepted by Church Fathers such as Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzus, etc. As for translations into English, I don't believe any one translation can claim to be be the final authority. The men who received them from God got them in the original languages, and hence the text as originally written down is the most authoratative. Ad fontes!
    Thank you for this post! I hope you have a great weekend and I look forward to your return!

    I am happy you mentioned St. Gregory of Nazianzus and St. Athanasius, two great saints of the early Church!
    Last edited by TER; 02-11-2012 at 04:06 AM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    I'm busy over the weekend, but will get back to you next week.



    In the meantime . . .

    The Hebrew / Aramaic scriptures as found in the Masoretic text, and the Greek Scriptures as accepted by Church Fathers such as Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzus, etc. As for translations into English, I don't believe any one translation can claim to be be the final authority. The men who received them from God got them in the original languages, and hence the text as originally written down is the most authoratative. Ad fontes!
    Btw, the two great saints you mentioned used the Septuagint for the Old Testament, not the Masoretic text.

    The same is true with the Gospel writers.
    Last edited by TER; 02-11-2012 at 05:01 AM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Btw, the two great saints you mentioned used the Septuagint for the Old Testament, not the Masoretic text.

    The same is true with the Gospel writers.
    Quite true. But guess who used the Masoretic text?
    "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand." - John Adams

    "He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind." - John Witherspoon


    Why I stand with Rand



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    Quite true. But guess who used the Masoretic text?
    The Jews of the second century AD. That is when the Sanhedrin wrote and compiled it after crucifying Christ (of course, after editing it in attempts to hide prophecies fulfilled by the One they killed).
    Last edited by TER; 02-13-2012 at 08:31 AM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    God said that not even Jesus knows the hour. If Jesus does not know the hour, than I don't think it's cryptically hidden in the Word somewhere.
    I can understand the desire to know. I think we are all on the edge of our seats right about now with all that we are seeing come to pass.

    Welcome to the forums!
    That is SOOOO wrong, it's actually blasphemy.
    The NIV is full of blasphemy, the NIV leaves out whole verses, even chapters, DO NOT listen to the NIV. Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour that He will come back, not even the angels in heaven, the part about Him not knowing was added by Alexander the Great's scribes.

  9. #67
    That was a great post! I really liked it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    John, define true Christianity.
    True Christianity is the Christianity of Jesus Christ and the apostles. That probably doesn't answer your question, but that is how I define true Christianity. And I find that in the teaching of Christ and the apostles, which I find in the Bible.


    Also, I cannot so simply believe a stranger on the internet who I know nothing about.
    And you are completely correct. Many (if not most) people you will meet on the internet do not know what they are talking about a lot of the time!

    I am simply trying to say that I value the opinion of the glorified saints above yours.
    And rightly so!

    . . . By choosing them over you, it is not on account of any deficiency on you, but to the greatness of those who Christ called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. Now, you may be such a saint, but, again, I don't even know you.
    Exactly.

    As great as the saints are, and as Holy as the Church is, even there exists corruption and counterfeits. Of course, human corruptions and counterfeits are not found only in the Church, but in all of creation. Corruption and decay and death is our destination, for every one will one day be buried or turned to ash and turn to dust. The cause of all this is sin, and it exists in members of the the Church just as it exists elsewhere, in all people. Being a member of the Church does not make one automatically immune from sinful passions and the demons. In fact, the demons attack the Church even greater then those outside of it, . . . No one is claiming the infallibility of men, and so, naturally, fallibilities will occur.
    I am in complete agreement.

    But even though the members of the Church are not perfect, in fact, because so, the main goal of the teachers of the Church and of the faithful should be to keep the teachings and doctrines and worship as close to perfect as possible, that is, unchanged, unabridged, and undefiled. Here is where the Holy Spirit works within the Church, as it did in the First Council in Jerusalem which was presided over by St. James the Just. ...

    Likewise, when differences in doctrine arose, or certain teachings were being spread and heresies propagated, the Church would meet in Council, with Christ in the midst of them, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to proclaim their Symbol of Faith and Creed and to address any uncertainties which where doing violence to the Church and threatening the flock of Christ. Just as it was done by the Apostles in the First Council of Jerusalem, just as it has been done in the time since then.
    I think that this is where we begin to diverge. I accept the Council of Jerusalem as being unique among Christian councils, on the grounds that it was apostolic. Other councils may err. And some clearly did. I suspect that you will agree that the Council of Trent (1545-63), at the very least, was capable of erring, and that the Council of Ephesus in 449 actually erred seriously. I take the view that such councils should be judged by the teaching of Scripture. But why do you, for example, believe that the Council of Ephesus 449 erred?

    (And yes, I have done a little studying of the history of the Church in the centuries immediately following the time of the apostles.)
    "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand." - John Adams

    "He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind." - John Witherspoon


    Why I stand with Rand

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    The Jews of the second century AD. That is when the Sanhedrin wrote and compiled it after crucifying Christ (of course, after editing it in attempts to hide prophecies fulfilled by the One they killed).
    You are, of course, quite correct. I'm getting forgetful in my old age!
    "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand." - John Adams

    "He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind." - John Witherspoon


    Why I stand with Rand

  11. #69
    So John, if we have established that the Masoretic text is a doctored version compiled by the Sanhedrin more than a century after they killed Christ AND that the Septuagint is the one referred to most by the Gospel writers and considered more accurate by the Church from the beginning, why is it that a certain Christian faiths put more merit on the Masoretic text? In fact the ones that do are the same ones that proclaim Sola Scriptura yet use a version not ever used by Christ or the Apostles or the early Church? You would think that if they we such sticklers to the sole authority of the written Word that they would at least use the one used by Christ and His Apostles, and not one manufactured by the very council which killed Him. Ironic, no?
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
    I think that this is where we begin to diverge. I accept the Council of Jerusalem as being unique among Christian councils, on the grounds that it was apostolic. Other councils may err. And some clearly did. I suspect that you will agree that the Council of Trent (1545-63), at the very least, was capable of erring, and that the Council of Ephesus in 449 actually erred seriously. I take the view that such councils should be judged by the teaching of Scripture. But why do you, for example, believe that the Council of Ephesus 449 erred?

    (And yes, I have done a little studying of the history of the Church in the centuries immediately following the time of the apostles.)
    I am happy to be able to discuss such things with you since you have actually read some history of the Church rather then believed that the Cuurch disappeared until the fifteenth century like some do.

    I am off to work now but will try to address this later since it really requires a lengthy response. I should say that the council should of course be in accordance with Scripture. The difficulty lies in the fact that the Scriptures can be interpreted differently, no matter how some people say that the Scriptures interpret themselves. That is hogwash. If that was the case, then the Ethiopian eunuch would have had no need of St. Phillip and there wouldn't be tens of thousands of different Protestant denominations today with varying interpretations, doctrines, and forms of worship.

    The Scriptures are but one part of the Traditon of the faith, in this regard, the written tradition, written, canonized, compiled and defended by the Church and for the Church by the grace of God. However, just as it has been used to created scandalous heresy in the early Church (for example, Arius defended his heresies by using lines in Scripture to defend his faith), even today, you have people who like to cut and paste certain lines from Scripture, divorcing it completely from the context and the katholic and universal mind of the Church, and end up with such blasphemies that God is the source and cause for the evil in the world, that it is God's will that a small child is raped, that we are but automans with no free will, living under the tyranny of a bloodthirsty, vengeful God, etc etc.
    Last edited by TER; 02-14-2012 at 09:29 AM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    So John, if we have established that the Masoretic text is a doctored version compiled by the Sanhedrin more than a century after they killed Christ . . . .
    Sorry, I posted hastily again. We have not established that. I was agreeing with you that the Masoretic text was agreed by the Jewish leadership after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. I was not agreeing that they had edited it in an attempt to hide prophecies that pointed to Jesus being the Christ.

    My position (see post #61) was not that the Masoretic text was the correct text, but that the books contained in the Masoretic text were the Hebrew/Aramaic books which constituted Old Testament Scripture.

    Getting back to the previous post, the point that I had intended to make was that one would expect Athanasius, Gregory, and the writers of the gospels to quote from the Septuagint, since they were writing in Greek. However, I would expect someone who spoke Aramaic and Hebrew to quote from the Scriptures in Hebrew.
    "Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand." - John Adams

    "He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind." - John Witherspoon


    Why I stand with Rand

  14. #72
    I haven't done the DD on this enough, but this is some very good research so far - I would add that in 2017-2018 is the next jubillee year, and quite possibly, the coming of Jesus which would be the gathering of Israel and spiritual Israle all at the same time frame, so 2017-2018 is defintely a year to watch with expectation.
    I also have prophecy on this year in my lil book of prophecy at the qwakeup.org site. Some of this confirms what I and others have researched.
    Mega Quakanami is coming to California, then WW3
    The US vs China and Russsia - qwakeup.org



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  16. #73
    Taking the Bible too seriously or literally does nothing but cause headaches.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mad Arab View Post
    Taking the Bible too seriously or literally does nothing but cause headaches.
    To "seriously" as oppose to what simply reading it without critically thinking about what you are reading? Would that no defeat the purpose of reading it in the first place? I can read a book in Spanish just to say "iv read a book XYZ in its original Spanish text" However, i don’t understand the Spanish language, my reading is an absolute waste of time, energy and resources.
    Adam Mcquaid is one tough hombre.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by dongkong View Post
    To "seriously" as oppose to what simply reading it without critically thinking about what you are reading? Would that no defeat the purpose of reading it in the first place? I can read a book in Spanish just to say "iv read a book XYZ in its original Spanish text" However, i don’t understand the Spanish language, my reading is an absolute waste of time, energy and resources.
    Reading the Bible is like reading poetry. The language makes sense, but the meaning may not be so clear. It can be interpreted in many ways and sometimes that's the beauty of it. I don't need to understand the author's true intent in order to appreciate it the way I see it.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by The Mad Arab View Post
    Reading the Bible is like reading poetry. The language makes sense, but the meaning may not be so clear. It can be interpreted in many ways and sometimes that's the beauty of it. I don't need to understand the author's true intent in order to appreciate it the way I see it.
    Theres no Hidden meaning in the Bible.The intent is there for anyone to understand as long as they approach it with a dedicated honest attempt at understanding it.Ive had to reread the Bible many times before i started to make sense out of it.

    Thats why Christ said to those who have ears let them hear.If you honestly desire to know what the bible says youll eventually understand it,but if you approach with a arrogant heart you'll overlook intent of verses and think it contradicts itself,when in reality the bible gives you deeper truths to live by the more you understand parts of it.

    Its like realizing over and over your just beginning to understand Life at a more fulfilling level.It started out with me as a interest,then became a means of being a better person,then it become a condemner that i couldn't perfect,then it became the only hope i had in my sanity,now i feel its brought me to the point of knowing what true love is and how its more precious than 1000 kingdoms.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by robert9712000 View Post
    Theres no Hidden meaning in the Bible.The intent is there for anyone to understand as long as they approach it with a dedicated honest attempt at understanding it.Ive had to reread the Bible many times before i started to make sense out of it.

    Thats why Christ said to those who have ears let them hear.If you honestly desire to know what the bible says youll eventually understand it,but if you approach with a arrogant heart you'll overlook intent of verses and think it contradicts itself,when in reality the bible gives you deeper truths to live by the more you understand parts of it.

    Its like realizing over and over your just beginning to understand Life at a more fulfilling level.It started out with me as a interest,then became a means of being a better person,then it become a condemner that i couldn't perfect,then it became the only hope i had in my sanity,now i feel its brought me to the point of knowing what true love is and how its more precious than 1000 kingdoms.
    Well, that's the way your mind worked it out. It's not the same for everyone, nor does it need to be.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnthewitness View Post
    Many Christians believe Israel is a divine nation of God
    Incorrect right from the beginning.

    Ezekiel 36:22
    "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicatethe holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD,“when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.."

    It has NOTHING to do with Israelis divinity and everything to do with Gods.
    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
    -Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    Incorrect right from the beginning.

    Ezekiel 36:22
    "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicatethe holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD,“when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.."

    It has NOTHING to do with Israelis divinity and everything to do with Gods.
    It also says that God will go this..
    Not a bunch of Godless politicians.

    I find it amazing the lengths that some will go to find things that are not in the book,, while ignoring the things that clearly are.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  23. #80
    While i find end time prophecy a little interesting ,I think people sometimes place to much importance on it,whats more important is growing your faith in God and learning what it truly means to love your neighbors as you love yourself.

    Theres only 2 reasons for prophecy's,one is to be a witness to the non-believer as proof of his word.The other is to be a reminder to the believer of the importance of continual focus on the things of the spirit so as to not be drawn away by the lusts of this world.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    It also says that God will go this..
    Not a bunch of Godless politicians.

    I find it amazing the lengths that some will go to find things that are not in the book,, while ignoring the things that clearly are.
    Agreed.
    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
    -Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

  26. #82
    Must...not...waste...brain...power...on...propheti c...interpretations...

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."- Malachi 4:5-6
    Fulfilled, around 2BC (plus or minus 4 years).

    "Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared." (Luke 1:13-17)
    "People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome."

    – George Orwell

  28. #84

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    MAGA was elected in 2016, some see that as a Divine action.
    I agree with everyone that thinks God put Trump in office, and reply "yep, and He put Obama in office too."

    God the good Creator of all things, in his infinite power and wisdom doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will; to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

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