The majority of Egyptians however are pretty much folks doing stuff like this:
Kill all the Christians,’ local imam tells villagers.
CAIRO, March 8 (CDN) — A Muslim mob in a village south of Cairo last weekend attacked a church building and burned it down, almost killing the parish priest after an imam issued a call to “Kill all the Christians,” according to local sources.
The attack started on Friday evening (March 4) in the village of Sool, located in the city of Helwan 35 kilometers (22 miles) from Cairo, and lasted through most of Saturday. A local imam, Sheik Ahmed Abu Al-Dahab, issued the call during Friday afternoon prayers, telling area Muslims to kill the Christians because they had “no right” to live in the village. The attack started several hours later.
The Rev. Hoshea Abd Al-Missieh, a parish priest who narrowly escaped death in the fire, said the clamor of the church being torn apart sounded like “hatred.”
“I was in the attack, but I can’t describe it,” he said. “The sound of the church being destroyed that I heard – I can’t describe it, how horrible it was.”
According to villagers, the mob broke into the Church of the Two Martyrs St. George and St. Mina, and as they chanted “Allahu Akbar [God is greater],” looted it, demolished the walls with sledgehammers and set a fire that burned itself out the next morning. Looters removed anything valuable, including several containers holding the remains of venerated Copts – most of whom were killed in other waves of persecution – then stomped and kicked the containers like soccer balls, witnesses said.Another Church has been attacked and burned down in Egypt by a mob of Muslim extremists on the basis of “a rumour” that the Church was holding captive a Christian woman who, they claim, wanted to convert to Islam.
My guess is that it will pass largely unremarked as Liberal and Left opinion-makers cast an Nelsonian eye in its direction. There is growing evidence that the secular democratic revolution in Egypt will be victim to a Trojan Horse filled with theocrats.
Let’s face it, little fuss was made or concern shown when it happened last time. On News Year’s Day, a bomb killed 22 Coptic Christians attending Midnight Mass. Inevitably – so removed from reality is the political milieu this is happening in – the finger was pointed at Israel by some prominent Egyptian political leaders.
Last edited by JuicyG; 02-11-2012 at 08:22 AM.
Let`s get Ron Paul into top 10 to generate headlines. We need more people.
"What does not kill me, makes me stronger."
- Friedrich Nietzsche, philosopher (1844-1900), Twilight of the Idols
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
- Arthur Schopenhauer, philosopher (1788 - 1860)
Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I recently found this thread while doing some research on Palestine. (Am also PM'ing the OP since it's been so long). I'm fairly neutral on the Israel-Palestine issue but here are my thoughts:
Also, the Jews in the Bible certainly did questionable things (by modern standards). Admittedly, life was very vicious in ancient times and wars were extremely brutal back then. As an example, take a look at Simeon and Levi's actions in response to the rape of Dinah in the book of Genesis. Yes, raping Dinah was bad and the perpetrator should have been punished. But viciously killing *all* of the males in the city of Shechem, and then plundering the city and taking the women and children - all for the actions of one man? Talk about collective punishment!
The Brits (and other powers) certainly had their own designs for the region, as can be seen from the failed Treaty of Sevres and the preceding secret Tripartite Agreement. But, as if often the case, things didn't go quite the way they had planned. There had also been the intention of creating Kurdistan for the Kurds but that never materialized. So I'm not sure how valid you can rely on British promises from 1915.
Also a lot of the problems in the region were simply the result of the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire (not really the British's "fault"). You have similar problems whenever other empires dissolve (Austrian-Hungarian, Holy Roman Empire, Rome). The Balkans were also a mess after World War I and II.
The Brits were in this position because it was the Ottomans who had previously conquered the Palestine region. And before then it was in the hands of the Mongols, Arabs, Byzantines (Eastern Rome), and Persians. Before then (Western) Rome. Go back farther and you'll have Phoenicians and Canaanites. It's gonna be a mess no matter what way you look at it.
However, a lot of the fault also lies with the Christians who brought much of the trouble on themselves. Western Europe repeatedly failed to help the Byzantine Empire. Oftentimes, Crusaders who took over Muslim-controlled cities would massacre the inhabitants, thinking they were Muslim (when they were actually Byzantine Christians). The Fourth Crusade had the audacity to sack Constantinople, one of the greatest cities of the time. The Byzantine Empire never really recovered after that. Western Europe also failed to help Constantinople when it was finally besieged by the Ottomans (partly due to Venetian greed and rivalry).
Even with the Christians in the Middle East, many of them initially welcomed the Muslim conquerors, seeing them as better than the "heretical" Eastern Orthodox Byzantines (those in the region were largely Oriental Orthodox). Only too late did they realize that things were worse under these new rulers.
A lot of the destruction of Christianity was done to itself. Catholicism destroyed Constantinople (during the aforementioned Fourth Crusade). You had the European wars of religion following the Protestant Reformation (with the notable Thirty Years War). Christianity also destroyed much of its own history through iconoclasm (there were two major Byzantine iconoclasms and also the Reformation iconoclasm).
You can also think of some interesting parallels between Sunni/Shiite wars, conflicts with Sufism, and several cases of iconoclasm - both within Islam (such as the recent destruction of Sufi shrines in Timbuktu) and to other religions (the Taliban's destruction of the giant Buddhas).
And note that while Islam was quite brutal to Zoroastrianism by destroying many of its sacred sites and persecuting its worshipers, also note that Christianity wasn't that nice to Zoroastrianism either. Byzantine emperor Heraclius destroyed the great fire temple of Taxte Soleymān in the 7th century (though that was partly provoked by Persia's capture of Jerusalem and the massacre and enslavement of many of its inhabitants).
Getting back to the Israel-Palestine issue.
The motivations of many Middle Eastern countries is suspect since many (like Jordan and Egypt) originally wanted to annex Palestine itself (rather than allow it to be an independent state). It's also interesting that while Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria are so quick to focus on the plight of the Palestinians, they conveniently neglect the situation of the Kurds and wouldn't be quite so eager to support the creation of Kurdistan. Of course this sort of hypocrisy exists in most nations (including Western, industrialized ones). I *really* wished that, in response to the recent U.N. referendum on recognizing Palestine, either the U.S. or Israel had introduced a similar bill to recognize Kurdistan (probably would have to be Israel, since the U.S. wouldn't want to risk angering Turkey).
While romantics might like to view the world through rose-colored lens consisting of ideal rules of law, I'm more resigned that the world works through political realism, realpolitik, and ultimately the right of conquest (or who has the power to hold the land).
So the fate of Israel *and* Palestine rests on who has the power to control it (and right now it just happens to be Israel).
What happens next depends on who has the power and if anyone can effectively challenge it. (Just like China with Tibet and Taiwan, Russia and Georgia with South Ossetia, U.K. and Argentina with the Falkland Islands, and Serbia and Kosovo in the Balkans).
- The genocide of Canaanites by Moses and the Israelis in the Old Testament.
- Christians (and some Muslims) who believe in the New Testament might also point out that the Jewish King Herod slaughtered all of the male infants in Bethlelem (the Massacre of the Innocents).