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Thread: NYT Expose On Chinese Working Conditions In Apple Factories - Microeconomic Help Please

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    I know a great deal about business. I don't appreciate the insult. I majored in accounting and finance, and I have management experience which I am great at.
    Then you have no problem competing with Apple in China, oh right, you don't have capital. If you know a great deal about business, it's still a shame you do not understand the Apple cult and loyal customers that'll buy products even if they knew their company was owned by a genocidal maniac (as long as it's legal). So the idea that Apple should stop and care about their employees, customers, and reputation is plain ignorant, and baseless.

    Can you show ONE example of Apple ever losing business or gaining business by doing any of the suggestions you made? Improve work conditions, pay employees more, think about their "reputation"?


    It wouldn't cost them too much money to cut down on employee hours. It makes no sense to work employees to death. They are no good to you when they are half dead. Also, how much would it really cost to not expose employees to harmful chemicals? This is just bad management. Period.
    No, it's not bad management. Not if you can get away with replacing them on demand.

    One thing you have to consider is that not everyone is rational.
    I already know that, so for you to think Apple should care is laughable, for you to think competition will destroy them, is even more laughable, but feel free to prove me wrong. They've managed to rack up the market quite a bit, especially for smartphones. They'll still be selling overpriced laptops that less than 10% of the developed world can afford, and that's fine with them. They are not trying to be wal-mart. I am not saying I like Apple, I am just saying I don't care and nor should anybody, care about workers.

    There are a lot of stupid people in this world. Some of them are crappy managers. I worked with managers who could have twice the staff as me and still couldn't get half the results I would get. This isn't hypothetical, this actually happened. I guarantee you if I ran Apple's China plants I'd get more done with better working conditions.
    Go apply and see if they care. Yes, there's lots of stupid people in this world, that's where their business comes from.

    Think about companies like Google who have some of the best offices in the world.
    *facepalm*
    the very first post I made was that they are NOTHING COMPARABLE. You might be able to compare Apple US retail stores, or corporate Apple to corporate Google. But Apple production lines and sweatshops are something Google NEVER HAD BECAUSE THEY DO NOT PRODUCE HARDWARE.

    I'm sure all you cost cutters would complain about that too. But these offices get them the best employees and get the most commitment from these employees. It also gives Google a good reputation as well.
    No, I don't complain about Google. Why do you insist that every company "cares about reputation and having best employees"?
    I've just told you Apple customers DO NOT CARE (are you ready to refute it?).

    Now, if you were talking about Apple's US corporate, and retail stores, that's much different, because there are heavy US labor laws and regulations.
    But as long as there are hardware production factories, there will be sweatshops, and Apple customers DO NOT CARE about sweatshop workers (until this fact changes, there is nothing that'll incentive Apple to treat their sweatshop workers any better).
    Last edited by onlyrp; 02-10-2012 at 02:11 AM.



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  3. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    They are all GDP. There is not much difference.
    So you mean to say construction workers and doctors should have the same working condition???

  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    So you mean to say construction workers and doctors should have the same working condition???
    I would think they would be approximate. In other words, the doctor may not need a rest period, but the construction worker would. The free market should make the pay and conditions commensurate with the conditions, risks, skills, etc. I don't think any of them should be suicidal, for example.

  5. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    I would think they would be approximate. In other words, the doctor may not need a rest period, but the construction worker would. The free market should make the pay and conditions commensurate with the conditions, risks, skills, etc. I don't think any of them should be suicidal, for example.
    that's fair. So by that, there's no reason anybody should be surprised that Google's offices are relaxing, while Apple's sweatshops are sweating. Neither are suicidal, what's new?

  6. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    Then you have no problem competing with Apple in China, oh right, you don't have capital. If you know a great deal about business, it's still a shame you do not understand the Apple cult and loyal customers that'll buy products even if they knew their company was owned by a genocidal maniac (as long as it's legal). So the idea that Apple should stop and care about their employees, customers, and reputation is plain ignorant, and baseless.

    Can you show ONE example of Apple ever losing business or gaining business by doing any of the suggestions you made? Improve work conditions, pay employees more, think about their "reputation"?




    No, it's not bad management. Not if you can get away with replacing them on demand.



    I already know that, so for you to think Apple should care is laughable, for you to think competition will destroy them, is even more laughable, but feel free to prove me wrong. They've managed to rack up the market quite a bit, especially for smartphones. They'll still be selling overpriced laptops that less than 10% of the developed world can afford, and that's fine with them. They are not trying to be wal-mart. I am not saying I like Apple, I am just saying I don't care and nor should anybody, care about workers.



    Go apply and see if they care. Yes, there's lots of stupid people in this world, that's where their business comes from.


    *facepalm*
    the very first post I made was that they are NOTHING COMPARABLE. You might be able to compare Apple US retail stores, or corporate Apple to corporate Google. But Apple production lines and sweatshops are something Google NEVER HAD BECAUSE THEY DO NOT PRODUCE HARDWARE.



    No, I don't complain about Google. Why do you insist that every company "cares about reputation and having best employees"?
    I've just told you Apple customers DO NOT CARE (are you ready to refute it?).

    Now, if you were talking about Apple's US corporate, and retail stores, that's much different, because there are heavy US labor laws and regulations.
    But as long as there are hardware production factories, there will be sweatshops, and Apple customers DO NOT CARE about sweatshop workers (until this fact changes, there is nothing that'll incentive Apple to treat their sweatshop workers any better).
    I've already explained to you that if they were well managed they could keep the costs down AND treat their employees much better. I know I could get the job done. I've out managed everyone I've ever worked with. I guarantee you I could get the job done.

    Apple treats their employees like shit because they are incompetent. Treating employee like shit and getting away with it does not mean you are well managed. It shows Apple doesn't know what they are doing. If you can keep costs low AND treat employees well, you fucking do it. You proved my point. Apple just treats employees like shit because their dicks. They just do it because they can. Not because its the only way. Additionally, Apple has hundreds of thousands of employees at one plant. Haven't they ever heard of automation. There is no need to have that many employees at one plant. If I was managing them, I would automate everything and significantly cut down on employees.

    You may not understand this topic as well as me because it is clear you don't have any quality management experience. You don't have experience outperforming your peers like I do. I understand that there are always ways to improve processes and get things done more efficiently. You don't understand this. You think everyone is competent and doing everything perfectly. It doesn't work that way.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    They are slaves, without property rights, without liberties, without freedoms, in a controlled, corrupt fascist government. The future of the world as the CFR sees it.
    Thread winner.

    Anybody trying to defend this as a "free market" is insane, AFAIC.
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    "They hate us for our Freedoms."
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  8. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    A law like that might go a long way in making the US a better place
    Why? Should people not be free to unionize and collectively bargain?

  9. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    I can see somebody loves unemployment.
    looks like you dont understand that jobs are disutility.we dont work for the sake of work.we work because the output of work is valued.if you can get that value without employing people,it is better for everyone.you ought to read hayek or even krugman on international trade

  10. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsylexic View Post
    looks like you dont understand that jobs are disutility.we dont work for the sake of work.we work because the output of work is valued.if you can get that value without employing people,it is better for everyone.you ought to read hayek or even krugman on international trade
    No, I fully understand it. I'm pro-unemployment if it means efficiency, sorry I was pulling your leg :-x

  11. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    I've already explained to you that if they were well managed they could keep the costs down AND treat their employees much better. I know I could get the job done. I've out managed everyone I've ever worked with. I guarantee you I could get the job done.

    Apple treats their employees like shit because they are incompetent. Treating employee like shit and getting away with it does not mean you are well managed. It shows Apple doesn't know what they are doing. If you can keep costs low AND treat employees well, you fucking do it. You proved my point. Apple just treats employees like shit because their dicks. They just do it because they can. Not because its the only way. Additionally, Apple has hundreds of thousands of employees at one plant. Haven't they ever heard of automation. There is no need to have that many employees at one plant. If I was managing them, I would automate everything and significantly cut down on employees.

    You may not understand this topic as well as me because it is clear you don't have any quality management experience. You don't have experience outperforming your peers like I do. I understand that there are always ways to improve processes and get things done more efficiently. You don't understand this. You think everyone is competent and doing everything perfectly. It doesn't work that way.
    I have some management experience, but I know where it doesn't matter, I know when there are loyal customers who will buy my products and services even if I shot my employees, then I need not care. This is the Apple customer cult that allows them to be abusive to their workers, and until that changes, nobody will care.

    I have a hard time believing Apple uses human labor in places that are not necessary or are cheaper automated, care to provide ONE example with evidence? I don't care what you think you can do better than Apple, I know you can't outsell them, so brag to me when you do.

  12. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    Apple treats their employees like shit because they are incompetent. Treating employee like shit and getting away with it does not mean you are well managed.
    This is getting ridiculous, you're the same person who told me employers don't care about efficiency, they just want to have slaves and pass the costs on to customers. Ok, you're one of those people who always thinks he knows better and I bet you're a successful businessman now, aren't you? What do you have to show that's so mighty and amazing that Apple should learn from?

    Don't tell me "I'm just telling you what I see from a better company" or "If you gave me a chance I'd outdo them". You can't deny Apple is highly profitable, and their customers are extremely loyal, while their workers are not going anywhere anytime soon due to the niche they created. So, what's stopping you from showing me and Apple you're the man, or woman, who is better at making money and making people happy?

    Please show off.

  13. #72
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    From other stories about Chinese labor, even though it sounds like Apple exploits their workers, other US (and Chinese) companies exploit the workers there even worse. Apple is targeted because they are the best known, most popular example.

    If you want a truely, completely free market, an employer should be able to exploit the workers as much as they can- even in this country. Profits for the boss or shareholders should be all that matters. If you want that. I think workers should be able to share in what they help to produce. Henry Ford wanted his workers to be able to afford to buy what they were making.
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  14. #73

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    I just feel like creating these type of work conditions only undermines true capitalism and gives way to the socialists and big govt backed unions. If companies are smart they would sacrifice just a little of their productivity or profit to create better working conditions for their workers, which would in the long run lead to more profits and productivity in my opinion. The whole "Well, they;re only option so they should be happy" just does not sit well with me. Slave or Starve are not good options. These people should join and put immense pressure on their employers for better work conditions.

  15. #74
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    But that is capitalism! Pay the worker as little as he is willing to take to get the job and still be able to attract enough workers to do it while on the other hand selling the goods for as much as the consumer is willing to pay.

    Unions, eh? There is an idea! Power to the workers!
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 02-10-2012 at 02:26 PM.
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  16. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlackPeterSchiff View Post
    I just feel like creating these type of work conditions only undermines true capitalism and gives way to the socialists and big govt backed unions. If companies are smart they would sacrifice just a little of their productivity or profit to create better working conditions for their workers, which would in the long run lead to more profits and productivity in my opinion. The whole "Well, they;re only option so they should be happy" just does not sit well with me. Slave or Starve are not good options. These people should join and put immense pressure on their employers for better work conditions.
    the price you pay for freedom is that people will be victims, there are many alternatives, but be careful what you wish for because no system is perfect. you oppose socialism because of abuse and distrust, and people oppose capitalism for the same reason.

    If you don't sit well with "that's thier only option so they can't complain", feel free to lend a hand, or take away their only option.

  17. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    This is getting ridiculous, you're the same person who told me employers don't care about efficiency, they just want to have slaves and pass the costs on to customers. Ok, you're one of those people who always thinks he knows better and I bet you're a successful businessman now, aren't you? What do you have to show that's so mighty and amazing that Apple should learn from?

    Don't tell me "I'm just telling you what I see from a better company" or "If you gave me a chance I'd outdo them". You can't deny Apple is highly profitable, and their customers are extremely loyal, while their workers are not going anywhere anytime soon due to the niche they created. So, what's stopping you from showing me and Apple you're the man, or woman, who is better at making money and making people happy?

    Please show off.
    I never said Apple wasn't profitable. I said Apple could be just as profitable and do the right thing. If you can do both, why wouldn't you? Thats why I said they are being dicks for the sake of being dicks.

    What I said in this thread is also consistent about what I said in another thread about employers not caring about efficiency. Employers should focus on RESPONSIBILITY. Giving each employee an individual responsibility and holding them 100% accountable for accomplishing it. It doesn't matter if the employee spends 100% of his time working or 10% of his time working. Whats important is he accomplishes his responsibility. This is a very important concept to understand. Just because you have an employee being worked to death doesn't mean he's accomplishing anything. Apple is making the same mistake most companies make and that is assuming that just because you are wasting your employees' time that they are actually accomplishing something. Apple is treating their employees like shit because they believe that treating employees like shit=profits. This is the same formula most companies use and it rarely works. At one company where I was promoted to manager, they had originally used the formula treat people like shit=profits. I switched to a system based on responsibility. I was able to accomplish far more than the other managers and with significantly less staff. Even though the employees accomplished more under me, employee moral went up, not down. So it is possible to get more out of your employees and not treat them like shit.

  18. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    I have some management experience, but I know where it doesn't matter, I know when there are loyal customers who will buy my products and services even if I shot my employees, then I need not care. This is the Apple customer cult that allows them to be abusive to their workers, and until that changes, nobody will care.

    I have a hard time believing Apple uses human labor in places that are not necessary or are cheaper automated, care to provide ONE example with evidence? I don't care what you think you can do better than Apple, I know you can't outsell them, so brag to me when you do.
    Sounds like you have fallen for the typical big corporation management training. We treat people like shit because there is nothing they can do about it. I managed under a big corporation before, where they had a monopoly at my location. Their strategy for I was there was to treat their customers like shit because they had no alternative. I didn't fall for their crap. I ran the place better...treated the customers better...and did so with lower costs.

  19. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    Sounds like you have fallen for the typical big corporation management training. We treat people like shit because there is nothing they can do about it. I managed under a big corporation before, where they had a monopoly at my location. Their strategy for I was there was to treat their customers like shit because they had no alternative. I didn't fall for their crap. I ran the place better...treated the customers better...and did so with lower costs.
    quite the opposite. I have never worked in a big company, but it wouldn't surprise me, after hearing it from you. I too was under the impression that most rich companies are like Google, treating their employees nicely, overpaying, and keep them happy, if they have money, why shouldn't they? But I understand they don't have to, if they believe they have better places to spend their money (such as returning it to stockholders)

    You are correct that because customers have no alternative, they can treat them like shit, and that's exactly how loyal Apple users are, they have some alternatives, but they want their Apple, their products just need to remain the same quality with some aesthetic improvement. Did you get the company more business or more profits?

  20. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    quite the opposite. I have never worked in a big company, but it wouldn't surprise me, after hearing it from you. I too was under the impression that most rich companies are like Google, treating their employees nicely, overpaying, and keep them happy, if they have money, why shouldn't they? But I understand they don't have to, if they believe they have better places to spend their money (such as returning it to stockholders)

    You are correct that because customers have no alternative, they can treat them like shit, and that's exactly how loyal Apple users are, they have some alternatives, but they want their Apple, their products just need to remain the same quality with some aesthetic improvement. Did you get the company more business or more profits?
    More profits. Same fixed customer base but at lower costs.

  21. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    I never said Apple wasn't profitable. I said Apple could be just as profitable and do the right thing. If you can do both, why wouldn't you? Thats why I said they are being dicks for the sake of being dicks.

    What I said in this thread is also consistent about what I said in another thread about employers not caring about efficiency. Employers should focus on RESPONSIBILITY. Giving each employee an individual responsibility and holding them 100% accountable for accomplishing it. It doesn't matter if the employee spends 100% of his time working or 10% of his time working. Whats important is he accomplishes his responsibility. This is a very important concept to understand. Just because you have an employee being worked to death doesn't mean he's accomplishing anything. Apple is making the same mistake most companies make and that is assuming that just because you are wasting your employees' time that they are actually accomplishing something. Apple is treating their employees like shit because they believe that treating employees like shit=profits. This is the same formula most companies use and it rarely works. At one company where I was promoted to manager, they had originally used the formula treat people like shit=profits. I switched to a system based on responsibility. I was able to accomplish far more than the other managers and with significantly less staff. Even though the employees accomplished more under me, employee moral went up, not down. So it is possible to get more out of your employees and not treat them like shit.
    I am not convinced they can do both. I am specifically saying Apple's unique market allows them to not do both, and you've not given me ONE example of evidence to the contrary.

    " also consistent about what I said in another thread about employers not caring about efficiency." no, it is not. Either they care about money, or they don't care about money. Caring about efficiency is caring about money.

    "Apple is treating their employees like shit because they believe that treating employees like shit=profits."
    Are you talking about corporate Apple in the US, retail and corporate offices? or sweatshops? Treating employees like shit does not equal profits, treating them better will almost always cost more. I agree it's possible, but that's a risk they're not willing to take and until you have something to show, nobody cares how you criticize them, they'll continue to have their cult customers feeding them money.

    Let me know when you kill Apple.

  22. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    More profits. Same fixed customer base but at lower costs.
    what happened after that?

  23. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    I am not convinced they can do both. I am specifically saying Apple's unique market allows them to not do both, and you've not given me ONE example of evidence to the contrary.

    " also consistent about what I said in another thread about employers not caring about efficiency." no, it is not. Either they care about money, or they don't care about money. Caring about efficiency is caring about money.

    "Apple is treating their employees like shit because they believe that treating employees like shit=profits."
    Are you talking about corporate Apple in the US, retail and corporate offices? or sweatshops? Treating employees like shit does not equal profits, treating them better will almost always cost more. I agree it's possible, but that's a risk they're not willing to take and until you have something to show, nobody cares how you criticize them, they'll continue to have their cult customers feeding them money.

    Let me know when you kill Apple.
    I'm working on my own business, but it won't compete directly with Apple.

    I've already proven that it doesn't cost more to treat your employees better. I'm not suggesting Apple needs to pay their employees more. I'm not suggesting stock options, and new fancy cars for everyone. I'm suggesting they switch to a system that focuses on responsibility. I haven't seen Apple's factories first hand, but I can almost guarantee you they are focusing on busy work, not responsibility. Employees respond to responsibility, nobody responds to busy work. If they switched to my system they'd have better employee moral, and they might even lower costs.

    This is not about a money issue for Apple. They are going to make money regardless of how they treat their employees. They should treat their employees well because it is the right thing to do, it improves Apple's image in China, and they can do it without raising costs.

    By the way you proved my point that Apple is being a dick for the sake of being a dick. They treat their employees like shit because they can. Its as simple as that.

    Also, exposing your employees to harmful chemicals is just ridiculous. It doesn't cost much to not do this.

  24. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    what happened after that?
    I left for college.

  25. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post

    This is not about a money issue for Apple. They are going to make money regardless of how they treat their employees. They should treat their employees well because it is the right thing to do, it improves Apple's image in China, and they can do it without raising costs.

    By the way you proved my point that Apple is being a dick for the sake of being a dick. They treat their employees like shit because they can. Its as simple as that.

    Also, exposing your employees to harmful chemicals is just ridiculous. It doesn't cost much to not do this.
    So you admit they won't make more money by doing the right thing and being nice, and I'll admit they won't necessarily be better if they treated employees even worse.

  26. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    So you admit they won't make more money by doing the right thing and being nice, and I'll admit they won't necessarily be better if they treated employees even worse.
    Sounds fair. Its not a big monetary gain or loss regardless of how they treat their employees. Which is precisely why they should treat them better.

  27. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    that's fair. So by that, there's no reason anybody should be surprised that Google's offices are relaxing, while Apple's sweatshops are sweating. Neither are suicidal, what's new?
    Apparently Apple's are suicidal. That's the whole reason for the NYT article.

  28. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlackPeterSchiff View Post
    I just feel like creating these type of work conditions only undermines true capitalism and gives way to the socialists and big govt backed unions. If companies are smart they would sacrifice just a little of their productivity or profit to create better working conditions for their workers, which would in the long run lead to more profits and productivity in my opinion. The whole "Well, they;re only option so they should be happy" just does not sit well with me. Slave or Starve are not good options. These people should join and put immense pressure on their employers for better work conditions.
    Workers in poor countries tend to prefer higher wages over better working conditions. They can't afford luxeries and generally prefer to focus on their extremely limited resources on their most imminient problems, like coming up with food and shelter. Focusing on better working conditions when hunger is an issue would be foolish.

  29. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlerzzz View Post
    Workers in poor countries tend to prefer higher wages over better working conditions. They can't afford luxeries and generally prefer to focus on their extremely limited resources on their most imminient problems, like coming up with food and shelter. Focusing on better working conditions when hunger is an issue would be foolish.
    Technically these workers are provided with subsidised housing and food by the company , but i have heard stories about people skipping their breakfast meal of one bowl of rice so they could save one yuan.

  30. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Ruffneck View Post
    Technically these workers are provided with subsidised housing and food by the company , but i have heard stories about people skipping their breakfast meal of one bowl of rice so they could save one yuan.
    There was a company I know of in Guandong Province that allowed that (allowing low wage employees to be reimbursed for meals, rather than take them directly), but it made headlines, and there was a stink over it. It's not an option, pretty much throughout most of China, as both a cultural as well as a legal thing. China has been through some very rough famines and mass starvation, even in recent history - they are so sensitive to starvation that the most common greeting in Chinese translates to "Did you eat yet?" ("nǐ chī le mā?" pronounced "nee chur la ma?") As such, all companies - anyone with low wage employees, and not just companies with subsidized housing - are fully expected to pay for/provide workers meals. They will never reimburse an employee for going without, as the company is required to provide the food whether it's taken or not. If you have a job in China, the food may not be to your liking, but the employer is definitely providing it directly, and you are eating.

    My company has a 10 RMB per person per day budget for lunches (very big by Chinese standards, as 1-5 RMB per person is common). It's all pooled, so a catering service normally provides the meals, except on announced days when we take the employees all out to lunch. But they never see the lunch money, and it's illegal to even offer it as per diem if they are below a certain pay scale.

  31. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsylexic View Post
    listen guys, i make around 40k USD in india for work i would have routinely got 120k if i had an US passport .barely median american salary,but my country's standards and purchasing power parity, i am very well off.i can even afford foreign vacations.please get a perspective. and yes,we often pull allnigthers here at work.not because we are slaves,but because most of us want to get away from poverty/mediocrity of the socialist past.it is just too damn recent to forget and demand mollycoddling
    Yup, most people don't understand the concept of purchasing-power-parity neither do they understand the concept of "money"; they think "money" is important but in reality it's the GOODS & SERVICES that matter, the more there are, the more prosperous people will be & the only way to maximize goods & services is people making allowing those who are producing them to maximize profits & re-invest them to produce even more!

    People also don't realize that these sweatshops is what has allowed countries to grow in the first place

    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlerzzz View Post
    If you are really concerned by the conditions in China, you should buy more Chinese products, not less.
    So obvious but socialists just don't realize it! And thereby they only perpetuate more misery
    Last edited by Paul Or Nothing II; 02-12-2012 at 02:47 AM.
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