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Thread: NYT Expose On Chinese Working Conditions In Apple Factories - Microeconomic Help Please

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlerzzz View Post
    If you are really concerned by the conditions in China, you should buy more Chinese products, not less.
    you mean if we bought less Chinese products, their work conditions would get worse?



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Ruffneck View Post
    So just because something was OK 200 years ago it's OK now?
    Show your disdain by not giving Apple any cash , if you do want apple products just buy second hand - theres a flood of second hand sales every 6 months when the sheep run off to buy the latest thingamabob.
    Yes it's OK today beceause it was ok 200 years ago, how else can you say we should follow the advice of our founding fathers and Constitution if you think we should stop doing what people did 200 years ago.



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  5. #33
    I suppose we have to ask, if Apple can profit $46 billion in one quarter, do they have a moral obligation to ensure proper working conditions at the factories they commission? Or is their obligation to maximize profits for the shareholder more important?

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Salutary7 View Post
    I suppose we have to ask, if Apple can profit $46 billion in one quarter, do they have a moral obligation to ensure proper working conditions at the factories they commission? Or is their obligation to maximize profits for the shareholder more important?
    Business has no moral obligations. Business answers only to the law of the land and their explicitly agreed contracts.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    Business has no moral obligations. Business answers only to the law of the land and their explicitly agreed contracts.
    What, you mean my degree in Corporate Social Responsibility is useless?

    (no I don't have a CSR degree)

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    Business has no moral obligations. Business answers only to the law of the land and their explicitly agreed contracts.
    Sometimes it feels more like the law of the jungle but I get what you're saying. Business is business. While it would be great to see people exercise some moral consideration when engaging in transactions, it's not likely to happen.

    The goal is to find the cheapest product. Everything else gets very little consideration, for better or worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    Business has no moral obligations. Business answers only to the law of the land and their explicitly agreed contracts.
    A business is one thing but a corporation is another. Directors and officers of corporations really are obligated to act in the interests of the shareholders, lest they find themselves in a lawsuit(of course that is an extreme case--a more likely scenario would be getting voted out). It's often said that the obligation is to profit and avoid getting too deep into philanthropic ventures. Making quality products affordable is of course necessary, but their business dealings also affect their public perception. Maybe morality wasn't the right word, but if nothing other than public perception, should Apple feel compelled to provide beyond simply what the current landscape in China calls for?
    Last edited by Salutary7; 01-30-2012 at 04:02 PM.

  10. #38
    ...and that folks is why we need the government to intervene and force Apple to hire American only, force those jobs back to our workers instead of theirs, cause the Chinese workers are the slaves of Apple not their own maniacal Communist leadership.

    Overlooking true exploitation by the State to foster a false exploitation distracting from that fact - the good old socialist mindset alive and well.

    If the growth in the US State keeps its trajectory, it won't be the Chinese enjoying a 40 hr work week, it will be North Americans learning what a 112 hour work week feels like.

    The socialist, whatever he may call himself to help him sleep at night, hates all other socialists almost as much as he hates liberty. Why? Because he is full with envy of the man who might take his turn enslaving others when it was his idea first.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Salutary7 View Post
    A business is one thing but a corporation is another. Directors and officers of corporations really are obligated to act in the interests of the shareholders, lest they find themselves in a lawsuit(of course that is an extreme case--a more likely scenario would be getting voted out). It's often said that the obligation is to profit and avoid getting too deep into philanthropic ventures. Making quality products affordable is of course necessary, but their business dealings also affect their public perception. Maybe morality wasn't the right word, but if nothing other than public perception, should Apple feel compelled to provide beyond simply what the current landscape in China calls for?
    Are you making the distinction that corporations have a board and answer to investors, whereas businesses only answer to customers?

    It's misleading to say corporations only answer to investors, because unless they break the law, they can only make investors happy if they make customers happy as well.

    Apple clearly doesn't care about public image, or else they'd lower their prices and donate to charity. They don't even care about serving the maximum amount of people (which is what WalMart and oil companies are condemned for doing)

  12. #40
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsylexic View Post
    nonsense. they are under no obligation to work there.the only thing that keeps them there is grinding poverty and starvation as an alternative.american workers of today will look like slaves 200 years from now. the working conditions of the past always look atrocious to those enjoying the benefits of division of labor
    So you are saying they are able to freely associate, acquire property, without crony-ism, without government violence and force. They are obligated to work there because their masters make certain they are SLAVES. Working conditions are irrelevant, as long as the contract is entered VOLUNTARY between the parties. Why this fascination with working conditions when I spoke nothing of this? If you are coerced because your rights to property are subverted, you are under duress because your freedom to work is controlled by men with guns who demand payment, your savings are unlawfully stolen from you through inflation, taxes, and "fees", you are a SLAVE.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    So you are saying they are able to freely associate, acquire property, without crony-ism, without government violence and force. They are obligated to work there because their masters make certain they are SLAVES. Working conditions are irrelevant, as long as the contract is entered VOLUNTARY between the parties. Why this fascination with working conditions when I spoke nothing of this? If you are coerced because your rights to property are subverted, you are under duress because your freedom to work is controlled by men with guns who demand payment, your savings are unlawfully stolen from you through inflation, taxes, and "fees", you are a SLAVE.
    yes.just as much as american workers can enter in voluntary contracts in the USA.so,voila -no difference

  15. #42
    We need to worry about these Free Trade agreements. How can we compete with the slave labor and child labor? When the politicians say we must compete globally I think they mean we need to compete with these $2 an hour workers or the child labor/slaves. This is a real threat to American workers. Why does Ron Paul support Free Trade and seems to be against tariffs?
    Last edited by rockerrockstar; 02-09-2012 at 08:28 AM.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by rockerrockstar View Post
    We need to worry about these Free Trade agreements. How can we compete with the slave labor and child labor? When the politicians say we must compete globally I think they mean we need to compete with these $2 an hour workers or the child labor/slaves. This is a real threat to American workers. Why does Ron Paul support Free Trade and seems to be against tariffs?
    your ideas belong to the 18th century aka mercantilism.the biggest competition to american worker are machines and not slave labor.you should try starting a movement to destroy computers .you want to a certain set of americans to be subsidized by others(that is what tarrifs are).dislike chinese tire makers? create more work in america by getting the govt to slash and tear up existing tires.

  17. #44
    If you do not like the conditions in the Chinese Apple factory, by all means BUY MORE APPLE PRODUCTS!!!

    Think about it. If Apple products were flying off the shelves, they would need more apple products. For this they would need the factories churning out more products and would thus need more workers. In order to get more workers they would need to have a factory where people would want to work. The conditions would improve for the current workers and you could feel good about your purchase.

    What would be the alternative? Boycott Apple? So now those workers who have uprooted their lives to move to a factory town for whatever reason they had to move are now out of a job? How is that a benefit to them?
    Definition of political insanity: Voting for the same people expecting different results.

  18. #45
    22 bucks a day is too much and that's why they also outsource to Vietnam where the same worker gets approx $7 bucks per day, 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

  19. #46
    if apple could outsource to robotlandia where there were no hourly wages,they should do it.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by yinzer38 View Post
    As an aside, this article over a week ago concerning Apple and China is also interesting:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/bu...pagewanted=all

    If you read between the lines, you can see how mainland China's current status as a new, developing "Wild West" is conducive for business and how the litany of regulations here at home (OSHA, EPA, DOL, etc.) really hinders the economy here at home.

    Additionally, given the conditions under how these phones are fabricated, the cheap components that go into them, and Apple's huge profit margin per phone, it is not hard to see how the general trend in America of style trumping substance (aka the 2008 presidential election, what happened in South Carolina, etc.) can be seen in iPhone sales... However, if you despair about the sheeple in our country, wait until you google the ironic response of iPhone sales in China of all places!
    That ^ I was watching the film "Spirit of St. Louis" recently. What a contrast - couldn't do that today. The MBAs would screen out the idea as not worth the risk or the backers would beg off the scheme as unprofitable. The airplane would never be built as none of the designers had degrees in aeronautical engineering, and it is custom work to be manufactured in less than 90 days, and the work force would have to put in overtime without extra pay, running afoul of OSHA regulations, never mind FAA certification of the aircraft and a guy who says he is going to fly for 40 hours without proper pilot rest.

    No wonder you can 't get anything done in the USA.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by anaconda View Post
    Why are Chinese workers pulling 112 hour weeks, subjecting themselves to harmful chemicals, and committing suicide? When employees of Google in Mountain View, CA have work weeks that are half of that, upscale dining facilities, and a volleyball court for lunch time relaxation?

    I guess this article is the big news story recently...

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/bu...pagewanted=all
    What Apple and other companies are doing in China is ridiculous. It doesn't cost that much more money to treat your employees well. These companies are being dicks for the sake of being dicks. Most of the hours worked over 40 hours is completely unproductive. They would be getting better results if they cut down their work hours. Subjecting them to harmful chemicals is just ridiculous. How much money are the really saving by pulling this $#@!?



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsylexic View Post
    your ideas belong to the 18th century aka mercantilism.the biggest competition to american worker are machines and not slave labor.you should try starting a movement to destroy computers .you want to a certain set of americans to be subsidized by others(that is what tarrifs are).dislike chinese tire makers? create more work in america by getting the govt to slash and tear up existing tires.
    I can see somebody loves unemployment.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    What Apple and other companies are doing in China is ridiculous. It doesn't cost that much more money to treat your employees well. These companies are being dicks for the sake of being dicks. Most of the hours worked over 40 hours is completely unproductive. They would be getting better results if they cut down their work hours. Subjecting them to harmful chemicals is just ridiculous. How much money are the really saving by pulling this $#@!?
    so why don't you pay the difference or be a shareholder? Sounds easy to you, but you won't do it. They are not dicks for dicks sake, they are dicks for MONEY.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    so why don't you pay the difference or be a shareholder? Sounds easy to you, but you won't do it. They are not dicks for dicks sake, they are dicks for MONEY.
    They can make significant improvements to their employees work life without costing them much money. Also, if another competitor comes into China and offers a decent work life atmosphere, guess where Apple's good employees will go. I'm sure these employees have no loyalty at all to Apple.

    Not everything is about the bottom line. Your positioning and brand name mean something too.
    Last edited by tttppp; 02-09-2012 at 03:54 PM.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwar View Post
    If you do not like the conditions in the Chinese Apple factory, by all means BUY MORE APPLE PRODUCTS!!!

    Think about it. If Apple products were flying off the shelves, they would need more apple products. For this they would need the factories churning out more products and would thus need more workers. In order to get more workers they would need to have a factory where people would want to work. The conditions would improve for the current workers and you could feel good about your purchase.

    What would be the alternative? Boycott Apple? So now those workers who have uprooted their lives to move to a factory town for whatever reason they had to move are now out of a job? How is that a benefit to them?
    I remember watching a show (I think Stossel on Fox Business) where they talked about how some US celebrity led a boycott of some company that ran "sweat shops" and the company was forced to shut down many of its factories and those people were a lot worse off.

  27. #53
    Cheap labor like this is exactly what keeps up our lifestyle. If these Chinese workers were being treated like American workers, this thread would be complaining about how an Apple computer costs $10,000.
    A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police

    We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
    - Edward R. Murrow

    ...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.

    How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."

  28. #54
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior_of_Freedom View Post
    Cheap labor like this is exactly what keeps up our lifestyle. If these Chinese workers were being treated like American workers, this thread would be complaining about how an Apple computer costs $10,000.
    Apple should just find a country were they can buy some slaves, just feed them for $1 a day. Profits would soar, shareholders would be happy, problem solved.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    They can make significant improvements to their employees work life without costing them much money. Also, if another competitor comes into China and offers a decent work life atmosphere, guess where Apple's good employees will go. I'm sure these employees have no loyalty at all to Apple.

    Not everything is about the bottom line. Your positioning and brand name mean something too.
    you know nothing about business, especially the Apple niche. Apple customers are the most careless and selfish people who DO NOT care about sweatshoppers, they only care about their pretty and expensive products. And yes, it will cost them too much to improve the work conditions, or else they'd do it. You think competition will force them to do something? you do it!

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior_of_Freedom View Post
    Cheap labor like this is exactly what keeps up our lifestyle. If these Chinese workers were being treated like American workers, this thread would be complaining about how an Apple computer costs $10,000.
    exactly, freedom comes from 2 sources, war & exploitation of other countries.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by matt0611 View Post
    I remember watching a show (I think Stossel on Fox Business) where they talked about how some US celebrity led a boycott of some company that ran "sweat shops" and the company was forced to shut down many of its factories and those people were a lot worse off.
    when you hear people complaining about sweatshops, you know they're just whiney liberals. They want their cheap products, they want jobs, but when somebody else has a job they complain they're exploited and underpaid.

  33. #58
    It was Calvin Klein in Africa, I believe. It was a big clothing line, anyway.

    The workers were predominantly poor single mothers who went from being poor to not being able to feed their children.

    "Liberals" strike again...How liberating is your hunger, ma'am?

    Quote Originally Posted by matt0611 View Post
    I remember watching a show (I think Stossel on Fox Business) where they talked about how some US celebrity led a boycott of some company that ran "sweat shops" and the company was forced to shut down many of its factories and those people were a lot worse off.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    you know nothing about business, especially the Apple niche. Apple customers are the most careless and selfish people who DO NOT care about sweatshoppers, they only care about their pretty and expensive products. And yes, it will cost them too much to improve the work conditions, or else they'd do it. You think competition will force them to do something? you do it!
    I know a great deal about business. I don't appreciate the insult. I majored in accounting and finance, and I have management experience which I am great at.

    It wouldn't cost them too much money to cut down on employee hours. It makes no sense to work employees to death. They are no good to you when they are half dead. Also, how much would it really cost to not expose employees to harmful chemicals? This is just bad management. Period.

    One thing you have to consider is that not everyone is rational. There are a lot of stupid people in this world. Some of them are crappy managers. I worked with managers who could have twice the staff as me and still couldn't get half the results I would get. This isn't hypothetical, this actually happened. I guarantee you if I ran Apple's China plants I'd get more done with better working conditions.

    Think about companies like Google who have some of the best offices in the world. I'm sure all you cost cutters would complain about that too. But these offices get them the best employees and get the most commitment from these employees. It also gives Google a good reputation as well.
    Last edited by tttppp; 02-10-2012 at 01:33 AM.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    Apples and oranges (no pun intended)

    The work is nothing alike. Apple produces electronics. Google employees do not, they are computer technicians and customer service people.

    You cannot compare teaching, psychological counseling and financial planning to coal mining, oil drilling , truck driving.
    They are all GDP. There is not much difference.

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