NYT Expose On Chinese Working Conditions In Apple Factories - Microeconomic Help Please

[onlyrp]

You're way off. If people today went back to 1912 style jobs they wouldn't be able to afford the basics, even if the wife worked too, and even if you didn't have kids. Unless you are smart enough to start your own business, you almost have to go to college.

Cars today have about the same fuel efficiency as they did 100 years ago. Isn't there something wrong with this picture? Housing is just as expensive. Health care and education costs are way up. If this were truly a free market, wouldn't the costs be down and the results way up?

You have no numbers to back this up, and you think "people today went back to 1912 style jobs they wouldn't be able to afford the basics" doesn't make my point? Because it does! You just admitted 2012 jobs, compared to 1912 jobs, are LESS LABOR, MORE MONEY. Did you miss the part where I said you can start by living in cities no more populated than 1912 cities?

How about you actually back this up with numbers, rather than just saying 'you can't do it, I can't do it' without specifics.

No, there's nothing wrong per se with cars being no more fuel efficient, just like there's nothing wrong with the fact planes still can't exceed the speed of light. You went ahead and ignored again, that you are free to buy used and old 1912, 1952, 1972 vehicles at much lower cost (unless its a well preserved antique). Housing is not "just as expensive" depending on where you live, now I'm not getting why you keep ignoring this. Have you been under a rock while Americans were witnesses to a massive housing bubble?

I won't contest that healthcare and education are expensive, they are, VERY EXPENSIVE. However, they are not the quality and availablity as 1912, not by a long stretch. In 1912, how many surgeries were not even physically possible that you'd die from? Today, you have the option of selling your house or going bankrupt if the surgery meant so much to you. In 1912, you can rob a bank and nobody can help you if the surgery or drug was not discovered yet.

Education is not a necessity, at least higher education is not. You can choose to, if you want the white collar job that makes more money than the 1912 job. You are free to work the 1912 job and complain what you can't afford to buy.

So, YOUR TURN, HOW ABOUT SOME NUMBERS. AND HOW ABOUT YOU TELL ME WHAT WOULD COUNT AS "BETTER OFF"?
Why aren't planes faster than the speed of light? Why can't you fly yet? Why haven't humans been able to breath under water?
I thought a free market would make anything possible and cheaper!

[Steven Douglas]

I thought a free market would make anything possible and cheaper!

Can you explain why, generally speaking even, that computers are cheaper, better, more powerful, more efficient, etc., every year, while education and health care are cost prohibitive without insurance for most? In China the cost of both non-subsidized education and non-subsidized health care went steadily down while I was there, while the subsidized versions of each are either stable or slightly rising, but only modestly. What is it that prevents education and health care from following the same pattern as computers in America and their education and health care counterparts in China?

Let me answer that: There is NO SUCH THING as a free market in the States where education and health care are concerned. Not even close. Both education and health care are special interests to the core - highly protectionist/protected, deliberately overly complicated, with layers upon layers of corrupt entities on the take, and heavily subsidized in the States, way, WAY more than in China. The number of doctors that can be admitted into practice is not controlled by Chinese authorities. If everyone wanted to be a doctor, nothing would stop a glut of doctors in China. And that's happening, because labor competition is so fierce in China that a four year degree is their equivalent to a high school diploma in terms of where it will get you in the workplace.

Think we'll let many of those Chinese doctors into our borders to compete with our spoiled bastard children of the AMA? Fat chance. Only a token few. My doctor in China made house calls. Our doctors did that, once upon a time in a different America. Easily affordable, too, out of pocket. And I'm not rich, and neither was my Chinese doctor, who was EXTREMELY good, but also faced a LOT of healthy competition. Like normal people do in a free market.

Private, non-subsidized hospitals: all modern facilities, with highly competent physicians:

Medical Record workbook for the doctor to fill out: .50 cents
X-Rays $20
Blood tests - $9
MRI - $46
Antibiotics and painkillers - $8

That was one of my visits. Take all your records, including your X-rays and MRI results, with you when you go - they don't store that crap for you, it's yours. It's very strange. Very surreal. Eye-popping actually, to see medicine practiced in a free market. In "communist" China.

Oh, and want your whole mouth rebuilt, with dental implants from Swiss trained Chinese oral surgeons? You'll be lucky if you pay more than $2K for a whole mouth rebuild - everything included. For about the price of a single implant, or a couple of root canals and a single crown in the states.

Yeah, you can pretty much destroy our education and health care systems and start over from scratch. Import the shit out of it from overseas. Flood our bloated, corrupt, insane market. I don't see any other way, it's definitely not fixable. Both are cases of Social Engineering Insanity Gone Wild.

EDIT: I made arrangements last month for my cousin to go to China to get some medical attention AND a full mouth rebuild. He was quoted $26,000 in California (cheapest quote out of three) for his dental work. He has no medical or dental insurance. He'll be staying in Wuxi on a tourist visa for a little less than a month. But he's going to China with about $6K at his disposal, about what it will take for the cost of a visa, round trip airfare, food and lodging, a full mouth rebuild, AND full medical attention. At a small fraction of what it would have cost to rebuild his mouth here - and forget the medical, there's no way that's happening here.

[tttppp]

Can you explain why, generally speaking even, that computers are cheaper, better, more powerful, more efficient, etc., every year, while education and health care are cost prohibitive without insurance for most? In China the cost of both non-subsidized education and non-subsidized health care went steadily down while I was there, while the subsidized versions of each are either stable or slightly rising, but only modestly. What is it that prevents education and health care from following the same pattern as computers in America and their education and health care counterparts in China?

Let me answer that: There is NO SUCH THING as a free market in the States where education and health care are concerned. Not even close. Both education and health care are special interests to the core - highly protectionist/protected, deliberately overly complicated, with layers upon layers of corrupt entities on the take, and heavily subsidized in the States, way, WAY more than in China. The number of doctors that can be admitted into practice is not controlled by Chinese authorities. If everyone wanted to be a doctor, nothing would stop a glut of doctors in China. And that's happening, because labor competition is so fierce in China that a four year degree is their equivalent to a high school diploma in terms of where it will get you in the workplace.

Think we'll let many of those Chinese doctors into our borders to compete with our spoiled bastard children of the AMA? Fat chance. Only a token few. My doctor in China made house calls. Our doctors did that, once upon a time in a different America. Easily affordable, too, out of pocket. And I'm not rich, and neither was my Chinese doctor, who was EXTREMELY good, but also faced a LOT of healthy competition. Like normal people do in a free market.

Private, non-subsidized hospitals: all modern facilities, with highly competent physicians:

Medical Record workbook for the doctor to fill out: .50 cents
X-Rays $20
Blood tests - $9
MRI - $46
Antibiotics and painkillers - $8

That was one of my visits. Take all your records, including your X-rays and MRI results, with you when you go - they don't store that crap for you, it's yours. It's very strange. Very surreal. Eye-popping actually, to see medicine practiced in a free market. In "communist" China.

Oh, and want your whole mouth rebuilt, with dental implants from Swiss trained Chinese oral surgeons? You'll be lucky if you pay more than $2K for a whole mouth rebuild - everything included. For about the price of a single implant, or a couple of root canals and a single crown in the states.

Yeah, you can pretty much destroy our education and health care systems and start over from scratch. Import the shit out of it from overseas. Flood our bloated, corrupt, insane market. I don't see any other way, it's definitely not fixable. Both are cases of Social Engineering Insanity Gone Wild.

EDIT: I made arrangements last month for my cousin to go to China to get some medical attention AND a full mouth rebuild. He was quoted $26,000 in California (cheapest quote out of three) for his dental work. He has no medical or dental insurance. He'll be staying in Wuxi on a tourist visa for a little less than a month. But he's going to China with about $6K at his disposal, about what it will take for the cost of a visa, round trip airfare, food and lodging, a full mouth rebuild, AND full medical attention. At a small fraction of what it would have cost to rebuild his mouth here - and forget the medical, there's no way that's happening here.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. One thing I'd like to add is that in China there is Chinese traditional medicine (acupuncture and herbs), which can cure most illnesses...as opposed to western medicine which tries to get you to take the maximum number of pills for the rest of your life. If you are in China I would suggest you stop by an acupuncturist/herbalist sometime. It will prevent you from ever having to go back to a western doctor.

[tttppp]

You have no numbers to back this up, and you think "people today went back to 1912 style jobs they wouldn't be able to afford the basics" doesn't make my point? Because it does! You just admitted 2012 jobs, compared to 1912 jobs, are LESS LABOR, MORE MONEY. Did you miss the part where I said you can start by living in cities no more populated than 1912 cities?

How about you actually back this up with numbers, rather than just saying 'you can't do it, I can't do it' without specifics.

No, there's nothing wrong per se with cars being no more fuel efficient, just like there's nothing wrong with the fact planes still can't exceed the speed of light. You went ahead and ignored again, that you are free to buy used and old 1912, 1952, 1972 vehicles at much lower cost (unless its a well preserved antique). Housing is not "just as expensive" depending on where you live, now I'm not getting why you keep ignoring this. Have you been under a rock while Americans were witnesses to a massive housing bubble?

I won't contest that healthcare and education are expensive, they are, VERY EXPENSIVE. However, they are not the quality and availablity as 1912, not by a long stretch. In 1912, how many surgeries were not even physically possible that you'd die from? Today, you have the option of selling your house or going bankrupt if the surgery meant so much to you. In 1912, you can rob a bank and nobody can help you if the surgery or drug was not discovered yet.

Education is not a necessity, at least higher education is not. You can choose to, if you want the white collar job that makes more money than the 1912 job. You are free to work the 1912 job and complain what you can't afford to buy.

So, YOUR TURN, HOW ABOUT SOME NUMBERS. AND HOW ABOUT YOU TELL ME WHAT WOULD COUNT AS "BETTER OFF"?
Why aren't planes faster than the speed of light? Why can't you fly yet? Why haven't humans been able to breath under water?
I thought a free market would make anything possible and cheaper!

Where the hell are your numbers? You haven't given me any facts. I can speak from person experience, the vast majority of people struggle to break even. And its not their fault.

You would absolutely make a horrible manager. I've worked with people like you before. They assume everything is perfect and nothing can be improved upon. Your making the same mistake when analyzing the economy. Education, housing, healthcare, auto, planes all shitty industries because of government involvement. But according to you its ok. Its ok for car manufacturer to not add any value over a hundred year period.

As far as surgeries are concerned, surgeries are not cures. Surgeries injure people just as often as they help them. If the U.S. has switched to chinese traditional medicine, they would have cured millions of more people at lower cost.

[Steven Douglas]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. One thing I'd like to add is that in China there is Chinese traditional medicine (acupuncture and herbs), which can cure most illnesses...as opposed to western medicine which tries to get you to take the maximum number of pills for the rest of your life. If you are in China I would suggest you stop by an acupuncturist/herbalist sometime. It will prevent you from ever having to go back to a western doctor.

Chinese doctors are required to know traditional medicine (not acupuncture, but the herbalist side). I have been prescribed traditional medicine several times - and took what I was given. It's all packaged like any other medicine, and looks very "pharmaceutical" - like this, one of my prescriptions when I had a spleen infection (still have the x-ray from it):



I think the total cost on the above, back in 2007, was about 17 RMB, or around $2.50. You poke the rubber seal on the top with a plastic straw and drink the semi-bitter contents, one vial a day for seven days (the first given by the doctor at the hospital). I took that along with my western prescriptions, all of which were prescribed by the same doctor. I had relief pretty much the same day, total comfort within two, and absolutely zero way of knowing what role, if any, the traditional medicine played in that.

The scientific jury is still out on all the claims of Chinese traditional medicine, but that doesn't mean there isn't something to it. Centuries of trial and error, and I'm sure a lot of placebo effect along the way, but also successes, and things we have yet to learn. Likewise, the reality jury is still out on much of western pharmaceuticals. Lots of experimenting with an incredibly complex, mostly self-healing, life form that we still have a long way to go in learning. I don't have blind faith in any generalized school of medicine, nor would I be so naive as to think they both aren't in the relative dark ages in terms of what is possible for the future. Medicine is still called a "practice" for very good reason - for all our many advances, we are about as far from perfect as we can get.

As for herbalists and chemists, that's the roots of our modern day pharmaceutical industry, with lots of blind faith trial and error to get it started. Edward Stone was an herbalist back in 1763 who used willow bark for treating fevers. Science later learned that it contained a substance that was labeled salicylic acid - the sole ingredient of common aspirin. I don't expect our protectionist pharmaceutical-driven medicine machine to be excited about Chinese traditional medicine, as it isn't patentable. But Asian researchers are doing studies and writing papers, and I expect they will get a lot of it sorted out. If, sadly enough, only for themselves.

So count me a hopeful skeptic, and one who is not afraid to at least take a chance. I'm not their first guinea pig for sure. Even most Chinese see western medicine for much of its "right now" advantages as cures, and Chinese traditional medicine, which they take mostly on faith (their own normalcy bias), for the long haul.

[onlyrp]

Where the hell are your numbers? You haven't given me any facts. I can speak from person experience, the vast majority of people struggle to break even. And its not their fault.

You would absolutely make a horrible manager. I've worked with people like you before. They assume everything is perfect and nothing can be improved upon. Your making the same mistake when analyzing the economy. Education, housing, healthcare, auto, planes all shitty industries because of government involvement. But according to you its ok. Its ok for car manufacturer to not add any value over a hundred year period.

As far as surgeries are concerned, surgeries are not cures. Surgeries injure people just as often as they help them. If the U.S. has switched to chinese traditional medicine, they would have cured millions of more people at lower cost.

I could answer by first asking "How about you tell me first what is BETTER OFF"

But I'll answer you, you want numbers?
This is not my personal experience alone, but at least a dozen people I personally know living in my area.
I agree with you no matter how much you cut your living expense, you need a house and food. But car and clothes do not need to be bought every month.
We'll start with cars, since you are obsessed with it being $20,000-40,000 without better fuel efficiency. Most of the people I am speaking of spent less than $10,000 on their past 2 cars (together, including any repairs). Most of our cars are 5 years old when we buy, and last very well for another 5, they cost less than $5000 to buy.
So that's a start, 10 years, 2 cars, $10,000 total. If you insist you must have 2 cars costing $20,000 each, or $40,000 , that's your problem.

Housing? Single bed apartments cost typically $1000-1400 in populated areas.
We live in suburbs, if it's not shared, it's a studio. So we sacrifice either size or convenience, sometimes the luxury of safe neighborhoods.
Rent is now $700 max for us, it's fluctuated up and down, but never past $1000 without either a better location or a bigger space.

Food, we eat on less than $200 a month. No junk food snacks, doesn't include soda or alcohol. We're not vegetarians, just smart shoppers.

Utilities, electricity, water, gas add up to less than $100 a month. If you're low income you may get assistance, but we don't. Cable, internet and cellphones are not necessities or basics.

So there you have it, BASICS cost less than $1000 a month. (and this is suburbs of southern California, it gets even better if you lived in foreclosureville, but that'll make income harder to find as well)
Even the lowest income among us makes $1200 net a month, leaving him $200 extra in he needs to buy gasoline for travel.
So what did I forget to include that is either basic or necessity? Anybody who has told us they can't make a living or get the basics without making $30,000 a year, has conceded and admitted after just looking at their numbers that they only "can't" because they CHOSE TO DEMAND MORE.

Medical care, that's the hard part, I concede that is expensive today and hard to have access to. Education is also optional.
(many of us are taking risks because we don't have any health coverage, but we get by, if you consider than a basic or necessity, fine)
YOUR TURN.

Hey, I'll make it easier for you. I'll give you the benefit of doubt that my numbers are way underestimated and you can't possibly get what we do. I'll DOUBLE MINE. Can you live on $2000 a month? If not, please list me what great basics you can't pay for.

[onlyrp]

As for herbalists and chemists, that's the roots of our modern day pharmaceutical industry, with lots of blind faith trial and error to get it started.

yeah, because the alternative such as prayer, esoteric knowledge, no trial no error is obviously better.

[Steven Douglas]

yeah, because the alternative such as prayer, esoteric knowledge, no trial no error is obviously better.

It is? Was that sarcasm? Were you under the impression that I believed something in particular with regard to prayer, esoteric knowledge, or the absence of trial and error, or even that I was criticizing trial and error as somehow being a bad thing?

[onlyrp]

It is? Was that sarcasm? Were you under the impression that I believed something in particular with regard to prayer, esoteric knowledge, or the absence of trial and error, or even that I was criticizing trial and error as somehow being a bad thing?

yes it was sarcasm, sorry. No it wasn't you specifically, it was just me venting the old criticism against western medicine that somehow the philosophy of scientific testing, or the attitude of "give drug when symptoms arise" is wrong, as if there is a more better alternative. I know you were not criticizing trial and error.

[tttppp]

Chinese doctors are required to know traditional medicine (not acupuncture, but the herbalist side). I have been prescribed traditional medicine several times - and took what I was given. It's all packaged like any other medicine, and looks very "pharmaceutical" - like this, one of my prescriptions when I had a spleen infection (still have the x-ray from it):



I think the total cost on the above, back in 2007, was about 17 RMB, or around $2.50. You poke the rubber seal on the top with a plastic straw and drink the semi-bitter contents, one vial a day for seven days (the first given by the doctor at the hospital). I took that along with my western prescriptions, all of which were prescribed by the same doctor. I had relief pretty much the same day, total comfort within two, and absolutely zero way of knowing what role, if any, the traditional medicine played in that.

The scientific jury is still out on all the claims of Chinese traditional medicine, but that doesn't mean there isn't something to it. Centuries of trial and error, and I'm sure a lot of placebo effect along the way, but also successes, and things we have yet to learn. Likewise, the reality jury is still out on much of western pharmaceuticals. Lots of experimenting with an incredibly complex, mostly self-healing, life form that we still have a long way to go in learning. I don't have blind faith in any generalized school of medicine, nor would I be so naive as to think they both aren't in the relative dark ages in terms of what is possible for the future. Medicine is still called a "practice" for very good reason - for all our many advances, we are about as far from perfect as we can get.

As for herbalists and chemists, that's the roots of our modern day pharmaceutical industry, with lots of blind faith trial and error to get it started. Edward Stone was an herbalist back in 1763 who used willow bark for treating fevers. Science later learned that it contained a substance that was labeled salicylic acid - the sole ingredient of common aspirin. I don't expect our protectionist pharmaceutical-driven medicine machine to be excited about Chinese traditional medicine, as it isn't patentable. But Asian researchers are doing studies and writing papers, and I expect they will get a lot of it sorted out. If, sadly enough, only for themselves.

So count me a hopeful skeptic, and one who is not afraid to at least take a chance. I'm not their first guinea pig for sure. Even most Chinese see western medicine for much of its "right now" advantages as cures, and Chinese traditional medicine, which they take mostly on faith (their own normalcy bias), for the long haul.

Chinese traditional medicine has been around for roughly 5,000 years. Over that time its pretty much been perfected. There's a cure for every imbalance you can have. When a acupuncturist/herbalist examines you, they can tell based on your tongue exactly what your condition is and exactly how to treat you. It tells them exactly where to put the needles and exactly what combination of herbs to give you. Its not guess work.

I'm not sure what the requirements are for education in china, but I know in american if you go to a doctor who knows acupuncture or herbs, they are completely incompetent. You have to go to a specialist in chinese traditional medicine to get anywhere.