Pro life vs Pro choice, how about abortion tax?

[psi2941]

I personally believe that if the baby is healthy the baby should have the opportunity to pursuit its happiness. When I see the world and see senseless abortion i'm sort of sadden but not too much.

case in point, I had a co worker's girl friend had three abortions because the guy didn't like to have sex with condom also said he feels better without a condom. Of course there are other options out there but that's not the point of this write up.

my purpose is to reduce senseless abortion. I have no problem with parents aborting their kids if some test comes back and shows the kid is going to be disabled or in the case of rape.

anyways instead of fighting this pro-life vs pro-choice. how about the pro life people, support a law that taxes abortion at the rate of 100% with a minimum tax of 500 dollars.

this will definitively change peoples behavior and i think in the long run reduce the number of senseless abortions. what do you think? does this fit with the ron paul principles?

[onlyrp]

Abortion is cheaper than having a baby, what would be the good of taxing it? Sending people back alley? I don't think people want to have abortions, a better use of resources and fines would be teaching them to prevent it.

[dannno]

I don't know if I would mind that so much at the state level as I think medical abortions are pretty violent, although it could potentially lead to dangerous self-induced and back alley abortions.

What I would hope is that it would lead to more widespread use of the less violent natural abortive remedies that you can grow in your backyard or purchase from your local naturalist/herbal store.

If Ron Paul gets elected, then maybe a state could try the medical abortion tax and see what happens since it would then be a state issue.

[Edward]

Taxes to alter behavior. What a novel idea.

[onlyrp]

Taxes to alter behavior. What a novel idea.

even if it doesn't alter behavior, why say no to free money if you can get it?

[seraphson]

even if it doesn't alter behavior, why say no to free money if you can get it?

Didn't know Bernanke was a RP Forum goer...

[pipewerKz]

We need a free market in adoption services. Also, IMO we need easier access to birth control and morning after pills, over the counter.. I reject this "pro-choice" stuff, there is no choice. Its called being irresponsible.

[psi2941]

We need a free market in adoption services. Also, IMO we need easier access to birth control and morning after pills, over the counter.. I reject this "pro-choice" stuff, there is no choice. Its called being irresponsible.

i agree, tax free on birth control and morning after pills. tax the crap out of abortions.

[satchelmcqueen]

i honestly believe a tax on abortions would make people go to unsafe underground ways of doing what theyre going to do anyway. most, not all, but most people have abortions because they dont have the money or means to raise a kid. why make it more expensive?

i say take taxes off of any and all birth control. make it as cheap as possible to get birth control.

[eduardo89]

I say publicly hang all abortion providers and sentence women who have abortions to 18 years of hard labor.

[bolil]

I say publicly hang all abortion providers and sentence women who have abortions to 18 years of hard labor.

Yeah, also we should subject ALL women to a battery of psychological tests to determine the probability of their having an abortion, anyone that comes back positive must be STERILIZED... bwaha.

All levity aside this is a really complicated question isn't it? If liberty requires life first, how can someone that supports liberty be for abortion? Still, if one supports liberty how can be against women from doing to what their bodies what they please? Dang paradox.

I read it before and agree: honest debate and education are the only means available to pro-lifers like me, and should we fail in that dialogue too bad.

[DamianTV]

I say publicly hang all abortion providers and sentence women who have abortions to 18 years of hard labor.

That comment really borders on a -Rep, however, I will refrain because + or - Rep has nothing to do with the Real World.

Instead, I will offer the idea that if you offend someone else of a different religious belief than your own, should they have the ability to deny you of your life because you touched a Sacred Cow? Just using the Sacred Cow as an example, if you did happen to touch one, it does NOT have any direct impact on the offended individuals life, or pursuit thereof, what so ever, other than the fact that they were offended. Likewise, an abortion provider has no direct impact on your life, other than the fact that it offends you. Why should you be allowed to impose your beliefs onto others. The thing is, should you get what you want, expect to be deprived of every other act in your life that offends someone elses religious beliefs, which definitely is not just limited to the Sacred Cow. That would be a Real World Consequence which far outweighs any -Rep, even if I did not give one.

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If we are going to have an "Abortion Tax", then I vote to also introduce a "Church Tax", to try to prevent the unwanted behavior of having a Church of any Faith impose their will onto anyone else that is unwilling to follow their System of Beliefs.

Morality can not be Legislated. Nor can it be forced, or even prevented. Morality must be a path that is Chosen by the Individual.

[eduardo89]

That comment really borders on a -Rep, however, I will refrain because + or - Rep has nothing to do with the Real World.

Instead, I will offer the idea that if you offend someone else of a different religious belief than your own, should they have the ability to deny you of your life because you touched a Sacred Cow? Just using the Sacred Cow as an example, if you did happen to touch one, it does NOT have any direct impact on the offended individuals life, or pursuit thereof, what so ever, other than the fact that they were offended. Likewise, an abortion provider has no direct impact on your life, other than the fact that it offends you. Why should you be allowed to impose your beliefs onto others. The thing is, should you get what you want, expect to be deprived of every other act in your life that offends someone elses religious beliefs, which definitely is not just limited to the Sacred Cow. That would be a Real World Consequence which far outweighs any -Rep, even if I did not give one.

---

If we are going to have an "Abortion Tax", then I vote to also introduce a "Church Tax", to try to prevent the unwanted behavior of having a Church of any Faith impose their will onto anyone else that is unwilling to follow their System of Beliefs.

Morality can not be Legislated. Nor can it be forced, or even prevented. Morality must be a path that is Chosen by the Individual.

I don't know what is really wrong with my comment. Abortion is murder and I believe that the death penalty is an appropriate punishment for murdering innocent human beings. I wouldn't charge the woman with the same offense as the "doctor", but she definitely is a party to the murder of the child and I think that 18 years (the same amount of time it takes to raise a child to legal adulthood) of hard labor is an appropriate sentence.

Whether an abortion directly affects me or not is not relevant here. If a woman down the street gets raped or a someone in another state gets murdered, it doesn't affect me directly either, but I would still call for the perpetrators to get punished. Victims deserve justice. Those who kill, rape, steal or otherwise violate the rights of others should be punished, regardless of how it affects me.

[onlyrp]

I don't know what is really wrong with my comment. Abortion is murder and I believe that the death penalty is an appropriate punishment for murdering innocent human beings. I wouldn't charge the woman with the same offense as the "doctor", but she definitely is a party to the murder of the child and I think that 18 years (the same amount of time it takes to raise a child to legal adulthood) of hard labor is an appropriate sentence.

Whether an abortion directly affects me or not is not relevant here. If a woman down the street gets raped or a someone in another state gets murdered, it doesn't affect me directly either, but I would still call for the perpetrators to get punished. Victims deserve justice. Those who kill, rape, steal or otherwise violate the rights of others should be punished, regardless of how it affects me.

I thought you were joking at first, but I respect your courage and consistency. People who think abortion is murder should be willing to punish abortionists the same way they punish murderers, for some it's life in prison, for some its death, but in any case, it's worse than rape and robbery. The only way you can punish abortioners for less than murder (including not punishing at all), is if you believe abortion is not murder.

[eduardo89]

I thought you were joking at first, but I respect your courage and consistency. People who think abortion is murder should be willing to punish abortionists the same way they punish murderers, for some it's life in prison, for some its death, but in any case, it's worse than rape and robbery. The only way you can punish abortioners for less than murder (including not punishing at all), is if you believe abortion is not murder.

Exactly, if you believe that the unborn are human beings and therefore posses the right to life, then abortion is always murder. You can't be ideologically consistent and have one set of rules for the murder of the unborn and one for the murder of the born.

[onlyrp]

Exactly, if you believe that the unborn are human beings and therefore posses the right to life, then abortion is always murder. You can't be ideologically consistent and have one set of rules for the murder of the unborn and one for the murder of the born.

way to be a "keep it to yourself Catholic" though

[eduardo89]

way to be a "keep it to yourself Catholic" though

Being pro-life, pro-natural rights and pro-justice has nothing to do with being Catholic. If you believe an unborn child is a human being, they deserve the same protections as the already born. That's regardless of whether you're a Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion.

[bolil]

Im agnostic and I really don't like abortion. It is not well though out, none of my opinions are... then again I am an emotivist (which is SO a word). I place liberty above ALL things... what reason was to socrates, liberty is to me except that I am intellectual ant when compared to Plato's teacher... as such I cannot support the ending of a life. Perhaps I have been propagandized into this paradox, but at the same time I can't swallow coercion, like you propose, to combat this particular event/crime... Is abortion victimless? No... dang... but it also seems wrong to prevent or punish women for getting them or doctors for providing them. Perhaps, when we restore the republic, the free market will allow for groups that offer incentives for carrying unintended pregnancies to term as, I don't think anyone performs or obtains an abortion with the explicit goal of killing, but that is what happens... I would donate to that group fer shur.
In cases of rape... we'll Im all for making rape a capital offense-Any one that rapes anyone else should spend the rest of their lives in prison, performing hard labor for the pecuniary advancement of the victim. Also the victim should be allowed to pay "visits" where in they are allowed to flog the rapist. What of false cases then? I'm sure there are a lot of people in prison for rape that are innocent, themselves victims of malicious women, this requires an equally severe punishment for false claims of rape... How to prove one way or another when, usually, there are only two people present and involved in the sex act and currently the courts are more likely to believe the woman (Jury's watchin to much Law and Order...). Of course there are blatant cases of rape... Off topic I know, but I gotta say it.

Bill Gates would be better off funding something like that than... fighting malaria, which like cancer, is unlikely if even possible, to be cured... GAHHHHHH this issue keeps me up at night sometimes.

[specialK]

I say publicly hang all abortion providers and sentence women who have abortions to 18 years of hard labor.

And to the inseminators ( I won't call them men) who bully the woman into getting one?

[eduardo89]

And to the inseminators ( I won't call them men) who bully the woman into getting one?

18 years of paying the woman's incarceration, in lieu of child support.

[Dsylexic]

" have no problem with parents aborting their kids if some test comes back and shows the kid is going to be disabled "

I was of this opinion until I heard of Ron Paul. Today the thought of abortion makes me throw up violently.
If the child is going to be disabled,the best solution is not to kill it,but to either accept the child with love OR if you are incredibly selfish or unwilling to be a parent- give it up for adoption to the nearest orphanage.
If you have condomless sex and miss your period,pop an emergency pill within 72 hours.If not,abort within the first month,atleast at the point,the embryo doesnt have a brain or feel any pain.

I am violently against abortion for fun and my religious views have nothing to do with this.By aborting disabled children,you are only saying that disable people have no right to live.Please ask disabled people if they feel like dying.I'll bet you 99% dont.

Taxation -no.the govt's job is to punish murder,not fine people who murder

[eduardo89]

" have no problem with parents aborting their kids if some test comes back and shows the kid is going to be disabled "

I was of this opinion until I heard of Ron Paul. Today the thought of abortion makes me throw up violently.
If the child is going to be disabled,the best solution is not to kill it,but to either accept the child with love OR if you are incredibly selfish or unwilling to be a parent- give it up for adoption to the nearest orphanage.
If you have condomless sex and miss your period,pop an emergency pill within 72 hours.If not,abort within the first month,atleast at the point,the embryo doesnt have a brain or feel any pain.

I am violently against abortion for fun and my religious views have nothing to do with this.By aborting disabled children,you are only saying that disable people have no right to live.Please ask disabled people if they feel like dying.I'll bet you 99% dont.

Taxation -no.the govt's job is to punish murder,not fine people who murder

I used to hold that belief too, that it would be better to abort a child with down syndrome than to make it live it's life that way. Then I realized how disgusting that view is. You could use the exact same argument in favor of euthanizing disabled children and adults. What would the difference be?

[CaptainAmerica]

I find it disturbing that in an "era of enlightenment" people would murder their unborn babies all for selfish reason.There is no mercy shown,no recognition of value of life,the intrinsic property within conception.The moral decay is obvious when you have such a big contrast in people who seem to love "individual liberty" but yet they condemn the unborn to be torn to pieces,have their heads crushed in ,vacuumed only to be called "aborting" or "planned parenthood" ,id say its more like planned murderhood...imho its butchering."Disabled" or "raped" is no excuse in my perspective that a baby be punished for existing. The minute that humans begin to think they are the deciders of life and death is the era in which individual liberty will begin to fall hard because at that point NO ONE will agree on what the value of life really is.I come to conclusion that to understand value of life in its most true form you have to believe in God.My perspectives may offend you,but that is what I believe .