Scottish Independence

[Pauls' Revere]

http://news.yahoo.com/uks-cameron-of...204732921.html


LONDON (Reuters) - British Prime Minister David Cameron offered on Sunday to hold talks with Scottish leader Alex Salmond to thrash out their differences over arrangements for a referendum on Scottish independence that could lead to a breakup of the United Kingdom.

His offer followed a day of manoeuvring between the government and Salmond's devolved Scottish administration as both sides competed for the high ground in an increasingly acrimonious debate over the future of the 300-year-old union between Scotland and England.

Salmond said this week he wanted to hold a referendum in late 2014 on breaking away from the rest of Britain, while Cameron has said it should be held sooner rather than later to dispel uncertainty he says is damaging the Scottish economy.

Cameron and all the main British parties want to keep the United Kingdom intact while Salmond's Scottish National Party (SNP) campaigns for Scottish independence.

Wonder what form of government the Scots would have and if they would welcome RP supporters?

[eduardo89]

Legally the referendum has no validity. The Scottish parliament was created by Westminster and given its devolved powers, meaning it can be scrapped at any moment by a vote in Westminster. Same goes for the Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies.

I personally don't want to see the United Kingdom dissolved, but do agree with devolution. I'd like to see the parliament in Westminster have much less power over local issues, with a stronger Scottish parliament and the establishment of stronger parliaments in Wales and Northern Ireland, as well as the establishment of an English parliament. Whether the English parliament is simply the MP's elected to Westminster representing English constituencies or a completely separate parliament is another matter. What needs to happen though is that England should have its own parliament and non-English MP's in Westminster should not have the ability to vote on purely English matters as English MP's don't have that power over any other of the constitutient countries.

[The_Ruffneck]

Scotland will be forced to adopt the Euro currency when they join as a separate nation.
Scotlands political decisions will be made more from Brussels than London.
Independence in this case is an illusion.

[moderate libertarian]

Very dangerous.

After Iraq anything is possible but this is like opening a can of very slippery freedom worms. Ireland world be next if Scotland got ind from UK.

Although UK neocons also contributed to intel that led to the biggest and most costly blunder in US history, this would be rather harsh punishment.

[Pauls' Revere]

Interesting, I'm unfamilar with the system setup in the United Kingdom. Seems that all parties would be better served if they voted for thier own constitutients and conversly to not vote in others. As an American I can't imagine one state and its citizens voting for another state's issues. For example, Florida voting for ballot measures in Montana? Is this a fair anaolgy?

[Karsten]

As someone with more than half Scottish ancestory I am all for it! I've been following this development for a year, and part of the reason they want independence is to detach themselves from the interventionist militarism of the UK. FREEDOM!!!

[Karsten]

On a side note it's kind of interesting that, as Scotland is going to be voting on independence, Puerto Rico will be voting (on the general election day, 2012), whether to become independent (not likely), status quo, or to become the 51st state in the US. In both cases, the vote will be non-binding but political leaders have said they will follow the will of the voters.

[Inkblots]

Frankly, I think that both England and Scotland would be better off if the Union were dissolved. England's budget deficit and economy would be boosted by the cessation of transfer payments to north of the border (Scotland is essentially one giant welfare state supported by the Middle English taxpayer), and Scotland would receive the national pride and dignity necessary to turn around its social decay.

I don't think Scotland will be able to bestir itself from its malaise as long as its trapped in the Union. It's a sad fact that, even though shock therapy will likely liberalize its economy if it were to become independent, that independence will come about 300 years too late to really salvage the vitality of Scottish culture. England imposed a massively successful program of cultural extermination on the Highlanders and the Islanders following the Jacobite Uprising, and that entire culture has now disappeared in the wild.

[The_Ruffneck]

Politically speaking i can see why Labour wants to keep Scotland in the union , since Scotland always votes for Labour in greater numbers than Tory.
Can't see why Cameron wants to keep them in though.Does he fear NI and Wales also splintering off? If they want to just let them IMO.
What would be even better is if the city of London was itself seperated from the union so that the rest of the nation does not need to pay for the debts of the banks.
Take London out of the equation and the financial situation for the rest of the country would begin to look far brighter.

[eduardo89]

Interesting, I'm unfamilar with the system setup in the United Kingdom. Seems that all parties would be better served if they voted for thier own constitutients and conversly to not vote in others. As an American I can't imagine one state and its citizens voting for another state's issues. For example, Florida voting for ballot measures in Montana? Is this a fair anaolgy?

The way it works currently is like this:

There is a national parliament in London (commonly referred to the Westminster Parliament, since it's in a part of London called Westminster and th building itself is the Westminster Palace). This parliament is the supreme legislative body of the United Kingdom, sort of like the US Congress. However, since the UK isn't a federal state like the US and it's 4 constituent countries (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) are technically not separate states the Westminster Parliament can rule over them all and their respective national parliaments are the product of acts of the Westminster parliament. In the US each state's legislature is not dependent on an act of congress to exist.

So over the past two decades there's been a move towards devolution of powers. That's why the Westminster parliament created the Scottish Parliament and gave it certain powers, such as over healthcare, education, and various other "internal" matters. The military, foreign relations and other important powers of national interest are reserved to the parliament in London. Westminster also has the power to devolve more authority to the parliament in Scotland, or even scrap it all together.

The problem there is though is that while Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have their devolved parliament/assemblies, England does not. Every single constituent country sends members of parliament to Westminster, and Westminster legislates not only national laws, but laws specific to England. That means that the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have a say on matters that are purely English, whereas the English people don't get a say on those matters in the rest of the country.

It's sort of like Florida having its own state legislature and sending representatives to Washington who can then vote on Montana issues because Montana doesn't have it's own legislature, but the representative from Montana can't vote on Florida issues since those issues are voted locally in Florida and not in Washington.

[nano1895]

I read an article last year on the subject of Scottish Independence. There's a lot of people in support, in fact there was a vote/referendum or something on the issue and more than 50% voted for independence but it was nullified because you needed 50% total turnout. EX: if 50% of the popular vote goes to X candidate really only 25% of the country voted for him because US has ~50% turnout on election days.

[eduardo89]

Politically speaking i can see why Labour wants to keep Scotland in the union , since Scotland always votes for Labour in greater numbers than Tory.
Can't see why Cameron wants to keep them in though.Does he fear NI and Wales also splintering off? If they want to just let them IMO.
What would be even better is if the city of London was itself seperated from the union so that the rest of the nation does not need to pay for the debts of the banks.
Take London out of the equation and the financial situation for the rest of the country would begin to look far brighter.

Take out London and the UK loses almost 30% of its GDP (and 13% of its population).

[eduardo89]

I read an article last year on the subject of Scottish Independence. There's a lot of people in support, in fact there was a vote/referendum or something on the issue and more than 50% voted for independence but it was nullified because you needed 50% total turnout. EX: if 50% of the popular vote goes to X candidate really only 25% of the country voted for him because US has ~50% turnout on election days.

There hasn't been any referendum on Scottish independence yet, it's scheduled for 2014.

[The_Ruffneck]

Take out London and the UK loses almost 30% of its GDP (and 13% of its population).

Much of the GDP is banking ponzi.Did you see the article the other week saying that banking costs the UK 8 pounds for every 1 pound it produces?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-23626708/

[Pauls' Revere]

So, this is about representation or the lack thereof and the burden of transfer payments. Why does England want to maintain legislative influence over Scotland if Scotland has representaive power in Westminster?

[Paul Fan]

North sea oil.

Edit: Also, politicians like to be 'in charge' of more people so they feel more important. Interestingly, because of the welfare payments to Scotland, English people are more in favor of devolution than Scottish people are. http://m.scotsman.com/news/uk/scotti...rder_1_2058487

[eduardo89]

North sea oil.

North Sea oil is running out. Production peaked in 1985 and will only be 1/3rd of peak production in 2020. ~60% of known reserves have already been extracted.

[Paul Fan]

Just out of curiosity, why don't you favor UK breakup?

[John of Des Moines]

All the talk of Scottish Independence is just that - talk.

Question: Will the Queen still remain sovereign over an independent Scotland?

[Paul Fan]

The SNP aren't republican, so they aren't looking to get rid of her.

[GrahamUK]

Hmm Interesting stuff. I myself am from Scotland and its true that the majority of the nation does not favour Independence , I struggle to find anyone in my local area who does support this move. There are a few reasons for this but for me and many others the fact that Alex Salmond has already stated that an independant Scotland would go directly into the Euro-zone makes it an instant NO for me. I know the United Kingdom's economy is in dire straits but why leave a sinking ship for one thats already sunk? For most of us Scots its a heart vrs the head scenario were the appeal of being independant holds some romance and thoughts of a bygone era but in reality it doesn't make much sense for us now. We are such a small nation and have very little to offer the world in way of exporting and manufacturing that fueling an economy and funding our overweight wellfare state would break us..

[Paul Fan]

Scotland staying in the union just so it can keep taking welfare from England seems quite pathetic. And staying in because an independent Scotland might make the 'wrong' decisions is also pretty odd as it seems to suggest that English people are somehow better suited to make decisions for Scotland than Scottish people are. That is the same argument used against Ron Paul and following the Constitution (the states might make 'wrong' choices).

Question: would Salmond be able to take Scotland directly into the EU? or would there have to be another referendum? And if Scotland did join the EU, how would it get out again?

Edit: Welcome to Ron Paul Forums!

[GrahamUK]

I never said staying in the Union was about taking welfare from England ... Its not quite as extreme as that, we all as a nation pay into the UK treasury and its not just Scotland that has high unemployment, the north of England also suffers from high unemployment which is largly attributed to the Thatcher adminastration of the 80's since it was her that closed down alot of the industry and coal mining in those areas for cheaper oversea's labour. This is also why the Tory government does poorly in terms of votes in Scotland and northern England. Our industry was destroyed, Glasgow had one of the largest ship building yards in the world at one point and the more rural parts of the country helped supply the country with coal for domestic and industrial use, that work has all been sold away. All we have left is an ever decreasing supply of North Sea oil and whiskey exports .. What im saying i guess is that the UK is stronger as one rather than devided

As for the Euro referendum im not so sure what the ruling on that is but i know Salmond is and always has been pro EU and that to me isn't real independance and all we'd be doing is transfering power to Brussels and not taking responsibilty for ourselves..

If however Salmond was planning to build us on a simliar model to that of say Switzerland then I for one would be more willing to support it but not having the power to coin our own money is crazyness, if ive learned anything from listening to Dr Paul then its his finacial lessons

p's. Theres also the question of the United Kingdoms National debt to be resolved if we are to be independant we'll have a share of that to pay off. Westminster will not let us off 'Scot free' as it were. NOW, factor that into the debt we'll eventually create by joining the EU's debt paper ponzi scheme and you've got one hellavu mess...

But yeh what the hell!! FREEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM lol

[Lishy]

I'm a Quebecer, so I can kinda relate. Militarism is going too far these days, so we'd rather separate.

Course, being that we're also stuck in a common wealth country (Canada), I believe the royal family is just one big lala-fantasy, and people like Queen Elizabeth are born spoiled, and arrogant people. I think if I had a one on one talk with her, she would have an AWFUL personality! And To this day, I don't see what Queen Elizabeth II did sooooo amazing to us that we print herself on our money! Did she do ANYTHING for her people!?

It's really stupid in my opinion; A fantasy. So good luck separating to both of us!

[eduardo89]

Graham, to suggest the industrial demise of the industial UK is te fault of Thatcher and the Tories is completely wrong. The fact is British industry could not compete with the rest of the world and it came from decades of mismanagement by postwar governments, both Conservative and Labour. Britain after the Second World War became a socialist planned economy, it's per-capita output dropped while its labour costs soared, the cradle-to-grave welfare state required massive government spending, labour unions held great power, and the traditional industries of shipbuilding, coal mining and other heavy industry no longer made economic sense.

I think one of the biggest mistakes the UK has done is join the EU, which although has opened up Europe as a common market, has completely shut them off from their traditional Commonwealth trading partners, which is a much bigger market and has much more growth and potential than the crumbling continental European market.

[Paul Fan]

Graham, I was browsing and came across this post (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...t-scotland-eu/) which suggests that the question of the EU membership and the currency would be fairly open for Scotland to decide.

So freeeedommmm is the way to go!! Revolution...be a part of it!

[Cowlesy]

Will the future Charles III be the next Edward I? Somehow I doubt it.

Go Scotland!

[Paul Fan]

Lishy, do you know about this group (http://www.canadian-republic.ca/about.html)? It is interesting that they want a ceremonial head of state. Why not get rid of any 'head' and just have the elected government? Why are people so keen on the 'ceremonial' function of a 'head of state'?

[GrahamUK]

Graham, I was browsing and came across this post (http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...t-scotland-eu/) which suggests that the question of the EU membership and the currency would be fairly open for Scotland to decide.

So freeeedommmm is the way to go!! Revolution...be a part of it!

Yeh its an interesting article but remember its prolly mostly propaganda to help persuade a rather unsure population to vote in favour ... Remember that the Pound Sterling is like the United States Dollar in that they are both nothing more than debt paper currency.. So if we did leave the Union and kept the Pound how free are we? For me we have to be looking at coining our money and building a properous economy of our own if we're to have even half a chance... The other options would mean nothing more than us being a nation of Serf's and the only question would be to which master. England or Brussels ?

[Pauls' Revere]

All the talk of Scottish Independence is just that - talk.

Question: Will the Queen still remain sovereign over an independent Scotland?

isn't that an oxymoron.