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Thread: HSLDA Does NOT Support Ron Paul (Homeschooling)

  1. #1

    Default HSLDA Does NOT Support Ron Paul (Homeschooling)


    HSLDA (Home Schooling Legal Defense Assoc) Leader Michael Farris does not support Ron Paul - and I think this is important to address - Need help with counter arguments...

    This is a big deal as many, if not most homeschoolers use HSLDA as their legal defense.


    Ron Paul is an enemy of the legal principles that the homeschooling movement has used successfully to defend our freedom to teach our own children. He recently said that he does not believe that the 14th Amendment trumps the 10th Amendment. He said this is an abortion context (which proves that he is not politically pro-life) but, let's examine what this means in a homechooling context.

    In the 1920s, the State of Oregon banned all private education. This Oregon law was challenged as a violation of the 14th Amendment. The Supreme Court ruled that the 14th Amendment's Due Process Clause prohibited states from banning private education because this overrode parental rights in an unconstitutional fashion.

    If Ron Paul's philosophy were applied to this case, then Oregon's law would have prevailed under the 10th Amendment.

    The case I won before the Supreme Court of Michigan for homeschooling freedom was based on the 14th Amendment. The federal constitutional principles of religious freedom and parental rights overrode the power of Michigan to require homeschoolers to all be certified teachers.

    The homeschool victory that I argued before the Court of Appeal of California when that court had previously ruled that homeschooling was illegal in that state--was based on the 14th Amendment.

    I could go on.

    Home schooling would be legal in about 3 states in this country today if Ron Paul's view of the Constitution was actually practiced by the Supreme Court.

    So I have a quesxtion for all of the members of Homeschoolers for Ron Paul: Do you agree with Ron Paul that the states have the exclusive authority over the legality of homeschooling and the 14th Amendment provides no constitutional right to homeschool?

    How can you support a candidate who denies the very constitutional principle that our movement used to win our freedom?

    Supporting Ron Paul in the name of homeschooling is like supporting Barack Obama in the name of reducing the national debt.
    "In the beginning, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot." ~ Mark Twain




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  4. #3

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    Sorry - didn't pop up in my search.
    "In the beginning, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot." ~ Mark Twain


  5. #4

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    I home school. My daughter is in first grade. First of all, I'm not sure I would home school if my daughter had the opportunity to attend the same school I attended as a child. I still live in the same school district. The school still has the same name and covers the same geographic area. Many of the families are the same. But, thanks to the Dept of Education, it is NOT the same school. For instance, forty years ago, parents didn't worry that their child may be at risk of drug dependency due to the recommendation of educators. Just before the caucus, a girl in a neighboring district was arrested and charged with terrorism. She had been bullied. The school had ignored the situation, and she felt she needed to defend herself. Terrorism. This girls' life is ruined because of a failure and subsequent over-reaction of the administration.

    I like home schooling. I'm lucky to live in a district with a very, very good home school assistance program. I have wonderful resources available to me through our local home school library, minimizing my expense each year. By first grade, my daughter has been exposed to not just one, but two presidential campaigns. She is at my side while we volunteer at the local genealogy library as well as the local museum. Home schooling presents wonderful opportunities for her to become involved in her community as opposed to being confined daily in what has become a minimum security juvenile detention facility. However, wouldn't it be wonderful if parents also had the option to send their children to a public school and feel safe in that decision?

    I feel that Dr Paul not only supports my decision to home school my daughter, but also advocates for a much needed improvement in the manner in which our public schools are operated. I am very proud to be a Homeschooler for Ron Paul, and while I appreciate the efforts of those who have helped me exercise my right to home school my child, that alone is not enough. Our nation is in need of fundamental changes in education, and I believe Ron Paul is the candidate with the best understanding of the nature of those changes.
    In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.

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    Just because the 14th Amendment can be used for 'good' doesn't make it 100% good. There are other legal theories by which States could be forbade from mandating govt schools for children.
    "You cannot solve these problems with war." - Ron Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by WyoLiberty View Post
    Sorry - didn't pop up in my search.
    Something needs to be done about the search function. It sucks pretty badly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    god damn vipers, all of them.

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    Farris will realize how wrong he is and how right Paul is when homeschooling is banned at the federal level. Then ZERO states will be allowed "to trump federal law" and allow homeschooling. I agree with Paul's position. Besides, he is full of it if he thinks only 3 states would allow it ROFL.

    BTW, I was homeschooled along with my siblings, and will never send my kids to public school.

  9. #8

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    HSLDA is controversial. They are an advocacy/lobbying group. They are not used by most homeschoolers, but many first timers get duped into "needing" protection which HSLDA does NOT guarantee, though they sure will take your money and offer you a membership.

    " HSLDA is (in their own words) an advocacy organization. This means that they advocate for the rights of homeschoolers. They advocate for homeschoolers in dealing with local officials and in court. However, they are more than just a legal representation team. They also advocate for the rights of homeschoolers on Capitol Hill, in the state legislature and elsewhere.

    Therefore, the dollars you spend on membership dues go towards all of these activities. They go towards paying for lawyers to represent home schooling families in court. They go towards legal consultations through the home schooling process. But you should know that your dollars also go towards lobbying on Capitol Hill not only for the rights of homeschoolers, but for the Conservative Christian political agenda.

    You should support HSLDA if you agree with the Conservative Christian Political Agenda and want to support lobbying for these causes, some of which have nothing to do with homeschooling. "
    http://homeschooling.families.com/bl...you-join-hslda

    Decent explanation of who/what HSLDA is...

    QUick search shows they endorsed Huckabee last time. My money would be they support Santorum this time. Good luck with Farris as I doubt he will change...
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

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  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    HSLDA is controversial. They are an advocacy/lobbying group. They are not used by most homeschoolers, but many first timers get duped into "needing" protection which HSLDA does NOT guarantee, though they sure will take your money and offer you a membership.



    http://homeschooling.families.com/bl...you-join-hslda

    Decent explanation of who/what HSLDA is...

    QUick search shows they endorsed Huckabee last time. My money would be they support Santorum this time. Good luck with Farris as I doubt he will change...
    damn... I use HSLDA to find courses... what other homeschooling organization would you guys prefer as an alternative?

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlatIron View Post
    damn... I use HSLDA to find courses... what other homeschooling organization would you guys prefer as an alternative?
    Use what you need to in order to find courses, just be aware of whom you associate with and what drives their agenda. What age range do you have? We use numerous resources, but I know what to expect (for the most part) from the various resources we use and I tailor it to fit our family's needs...
    Last edited by moostraks; 01-10-2012 at 12:18 PM.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  12. #11

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    Blogger OneMom endorsed Ron Paul ... in part because of his homeschooling positions:
    http://onemom.com/2011/11/onemom-endorses-ron-paul/
    Homeschooling:

    Ron Paul believes no nation can remain free when the state has greater influence over the knowledge and values transmitted to children than the family does. And the truth is, no big government spending program can or will solve our nation’s education problems.

    One-size-fits-all central planning simply does not work.

    As a congressman, Ron Paul has been a consistent supporter of homeschooling and educational freedom.

    Being a homeschooling parent takes a unique dedication to family and education.
    Thread on endoresment:
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...orses-Ron-Paul

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by WyoLiberty View Post

    This is a big deal as many, if not most homeschoolers use HSLDA as their legal defense.
    Not a big deal to us, and we homeschool. Michael Farris is a wonderful lawyer when it comes to homeschooling issues. He can cite decisions chapter and verse like you would want any good lawyer to do. On the downside, he doesn't look to the history behind the decisions and is willing to spin stories based on what he thinks he knows.

    The Oregon ballot initiative that he refers to was an attempt by the Freemasons and KKK to scrub Catholicism from the state by outlawing their schools. The initiative specifically did not ban individual education and private tutelage, only parochial schools, and therefore wouldn't necessarily prevent homeschooling. Of course, given the blatant anti-Catholic nature it should have been overturned on 1st amendment grounds.

    Google News Archive is your friend.

    XNN
    Last edited by XNavyNuke; 01-11-2012 at 09:52 AM.
    "They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance

  14. #13

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    Not a fan of HSLDA myself. Several years back in VA (under governor Warner the democrat) HSLDA, against the wishes/advice of our state homeschool association which is and has been well equipped and funded to speak on our behalf, challenged our state homeschool laws. The blowback to this was opening the laws up for revision. When the legislation they proposed hit the governor's desk he tried to rewrite our laws so that all homeschooling parents would have to take the teacher certification test before being allowed to homeschool their kids. His "nationwide" group was messing with state laws which were already decent and fair and if not for our conservative legislature (who definitely heard from the homeschooling population) who rebuffed Warner's proposals we'd have a much more difficult time homeschooling in VA today.

    I have an issue w/any group that would step into state affairs and meddle with laws against the wishes of a large number of the people that would be affected by your meddling. Yes, they have done great things, too for parents in more restrictive states but our homeschooling rights in VA are and have been fairly well protected if you know the laws (which are pretty simple to understand) and we have our state association which is very active and helpful. The overstepping against our wishes was pretty blatant, though and they were well aware of our state group's opinion/position on their lobbying yet they did it anyway.
    “Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It’s not.”
    The Lorax, by Dr. Seuss

  15. #14

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    What other homeschool legal group can be used to protect home schoolers from CPS and the police etc. I have had run ins with both of the above and am planning on homeschooling my oldest child come fall and was told its best to join the HSLDA for legal help if needed and in my case I bet I will. I seem to attract the assholes from CPS and would love to have a lawyer from HSLDA tell them off when they come to harass me for homeschooling.Also is the robertson curriculum good to use? I like what I have read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WyoLiberty View Post
    [1]Ron Paul is an enemy of the legal principles that the homeschooling
    movement has used successfully to defend our freedom to teach our own
    children.
    He recently said that he does not believe that the 14th
    Amendment trumps the 10th Amendment. He said this is an abortion
    context (which proves that he is not politically pro-life) but, let's examine
    what this means in a homechooling context.
    In the 1920s, the State of Oregon banned all private education. This
    Oregon law was challenged as a violation of the 14th Amendment. The
    Supreme Court ruled that the 14th Amendment's Due Process Clause
    prohibited states from banning private education because this overrode
    parental rights in an unconstitutional fashion.
    If Ron Paul's philosophy were applied to this case, then Oregon's law
    would have prevailed under the 10th Amendment.
    The case I won before the Supreme Court of Michigan for homeschooling
    freedom was based on the 14th Amendment. The federal constitutional
    principles of religious freedom and parental rights overrode the power of
    Michigan to require homeschoolers to all be certified teachers.
    The homeschool victory that I argued before the Court of Appeal of
    California when that court had previously ruled that homeschooling was
    illegal in that state--was based on the 14th Amendment.
    I could go on.
    Home schooling would be legal in about 3 states in this country today if
    Ron Paul's view of the Constitution was actually practiced by the Supreme
    Court.
    [2]So I have a quesxtion for all of the members of Homeschoolers for Ron
    Paul: Do you agree with Ron Paul that the states have the exclusive
    authority over the legality of homeschooling and the 14th Amendment
    provides no constitutional right to homeschool?

    How can you support a candidate who denies the very constitutional
    principle that our movement used to win our freedom?
    [3]Supporting Ron Paul in the name of homeschooling is like supporting
    Barack Obama in the name of reducing the national debt.
    there is no doubt that Mike Farris is a very prominent attorney. i belong to HSLDA (although i must now begin to wonder "for how much longer?"), and my wife worked on his US Senate campaign (although i now must consider that an even bigger mistake than i have already come to, over the years). let's examine his arguments:

    1. Mike criticizes Ron for opposing the legal activism of the federal courts, the fulcrum of which has, historically, been the 14A. The basis of Mike's criticism is that Farris has been successful in using the federal courts' activism against the states, in a manner that has helped to promote home education, a fact for which i am personally grateful. however, what Mr. Farris fails to acknowledge is that, as a skillful attorney, the moment it is the federal government using the 14A to restrict homeschooling, nationally, it will be his duty to take Dr. Paul's position, and to defend it as vigorously as he has done the opposite. This, however, may present a challenge for Mike, a Romans13 authoritarian, who considers SCOTUS the final arbiter. i don't believe my fellow HSLDA members will be impressed by Mike rolling over for federal restrictions on parental rights, based on Farris' own prior defenses of the 14A.

    2. Did a man who named his school after Patrick Henry really just suggest that rights come from government?

    3. There are many reasons to support Ron Paul, among which is his principled defense of parental rights. Unlike Mr Farris, Dr Paul does not believe that the state has the authority to define or restrict parental rights. Unlike Mr Obama's views on fiscal responsibility, Dr Paul is a true personal champion of parental rights, and Mr Farris knows it, which is specifically why he accuses Dr Paul of being "not politically pro-life," implying that his political positions stand in the way of his personal principles.

    Farris' arguments are so cherry-picked that it's clear his arguments with Dr Paul go far beyond homeschooling. in fact, Dr Paul would abolish the federal machinery that empowers the individual states' opposition to homeschooling, begging the question of whether HSLDA is as dependent upon the status quo as H&R Block.
    Last edited by Voluntary Man; 05-06-2012 at 01:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dissent View Post
    What other homeschool legal group can be used to protect home schoolers from CPS and the police etc. I have had run ins with both of the above and am planning on homeschooling my oldest child come fall and was told its best to join the HSLDA for legal help if needed and in my case I bet I will. I seem to attract the assholes from CPS and would love to have a lawyer from HSLDA tell them off when they come to harass me for homeschooling.Also is the robertson curriculum good to use? I like what I have read.
    You don't need a legal group. Find yourself a local attorney that is also a homeschooler (or private schools and supports homeschooling), and who has local political connections. (either party's fine) Meet with that person and explain your situation. A small retainer is better protection than dues to any organisation who may only decide to support your cause if they see a fundraising opportunity. Keep that person's card on hand and don't talk to any official period. That's how we do it.

    We also don't use any canned curriculum exclusively.

    Good luck!
    XNN
    "They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneEnochs View Post
    Something needs to be done about the search function. It sucks pretty badly.
    Very true. If they'd let me loose on it, I would repair the queries in a day or so, but that ain't gonna happen any time ever. Not sure I could even get a copy of the DB schema in order to be able to make suggestions.
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    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Very true. If they'd let me loose on it, I would repair the queries in a day or so, but that ain't gonna happen any time ever. Not sure I could even get a copy of the DB schema in order to be able to make suggestions.
    Have you even talked to Josh about it?
    “I have many friends in the libertarian movement who look down on those of us who get involved in political activity,”
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    Quote Originally Posted by WyoLiberty View Post
    Ron Paul is an enemy of the legal principles that the homeschooling movement has used successfully to defend our freedom to teach our own children.
    This guy is a lawyer? An ignorant one, apparently.

    The case I won before the Supreme Court of Michigan for homeschooling freedom was based on the 14th Amendment.
    Just because he won, it does not follow that either he or the courts functioned properly. His claim is analogous to patting oneself on the back after winning a baseball game, your team having used a spud gun to launch balls out of the park while the other used the usual wooden bats.

    The federal constitutional principles of religious freedom and parental rights overrode the power of Michigan to require homeschoolers to all be certified teachers.
    And these relate to the 14th how, exactly?

    Home schooling would be legal in about 3 states in this country today if Ron Paul's view of the Constitution was actually practiced by the Supreme Court.
    Which almost certainly has NOTHING to do with RP's view, but rather the view of our utterly failed courts. HELLO.

    So I have a quesxtion for all of the members of Homeschoolers for Ron Paul: Do you agree with Ron Paul that the states have the exclusive authority over the legality of homeschooling and the 14th Amendment provides no constitutional right to homeschool?
    I am not sure that is his position, but if it is, I would disagree as the only authority is that of the parent and the student.

    How can you support a candidate who denies the very constitutional principle that our movement used to win our freedom?
    Because the principle is wrong. Because the courts are hopelessly broken and corrupted.

    What a fool - seriously folks, either this guy is an ignorant fop-lawyer or he is working a thinly veiled agenda running counter to the best interests of personal freedom.
    --

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    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Have you even talked to Josh about it?
    Actually, yes. He told me they had no access to the innards of this thing... which seems odd, but if that's the case, then that's the case.
    --

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    http://turnyourbackonthem.wordpress.com

    ignominia et contemptum tyrannis

    Habeo excelsum artem; afflixerim cum crudelitate illis qui laedas me

    Shelley's thinly veiled warning to tyrants:

    The monster saw my determination in my face and gnashed his teeth in the impotence of anger. "Shall each man," cried he, "find a wife for his bosom, and each beast have his mate, and I be alone? I had feelings of affection, and they were requited by detestation and scorn. Man! You may hate, but beware! Your hours will pass in dread and misery, and soon the bolt will fall which must ravish from you your happiness forever. Are you to be happy while I grovel in the intensity of my wretchedness? You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains--revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food! I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery. Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful. I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. Man, you shall repent of the injuries you inflict.”

  22. #21

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    But Paul wants to end the DoE. This does not compute.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by seraphson View Post
    But Paul wants to end the DoE. This does not compute.
    HSLDA is an Evangelical organization first and foremost. Education just happens to be their pulpit.

    XNN
    "They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance





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