help me with a Santorum (Christian) supporter

[Voluntary Man]

His statement BEGS for an explanation. Ask him to explain how Santorum is closer to righteousness, in the eyes of God, because, as a Christian, I don't see what your friend thinks he sees.

If he's referring to defending Israel, ask him if the Old Testament isn't full of examples of God turning his back on Israel, and delivering Israel into the hands of her enemies.

If your friend really is a Christian, by faith, and not just a cultural judeo-christian, he must believe that Christ is the fullfilment of God's special Covenant with Abraham. Is your friend so confident that God will never again punish the nation that mocks His Son, that your friend would risk placing himself and his country between Israel and God's Wrath?

Ask your friend to show you the scripture that requires America to defend Israel above all other nations (he will not be able to, because it's a lie). Israel needs to stand or fall on her own, and, fortunately for the US, this means we should treat Israel no differently than any other foreign nation, as a wise foreign policy (the one designed by our Founders) dictates.

Israel, the descendants of Abraham, through Jacob, were chosen to provide the genetic line for the Son of God, the Savior of all the descendants of Adam. God does not have a separate plan of salvation for those who reject His Son. Sorry to disappoint your friend, but Israel needs Jesus, too.

[Sola_Fide]

Oh it's most definitely Israel. The video I linked is the one she sent me.

Send her this: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...34#post3919434

[wistfulthinker]

Please no hate on religion folks. I need help from a Christian perspective though. These are the people that will be voting for Santorum.

Good question M.

I would say that what happened when Christ came here to us was a revolution in God's relationship to man. Jesus spent most of his condemning words on the folks who expected something that made sense to them. That made sense under the paradigm they'd studied and prepared for. Christ proclaimed an entirely NEW way of being in relationship with God. An entirely new covenant.

Your friend here is still defining his relationship with God in old covenant terms. It's someone else -- it's the king; it's his group. It's anything but his own responsibility. Anything but the terrible truth that it's just him and God. He doesn't get a pass through aligning with some godly state or being born chosen. It's just a guy and just God. That's the revolution Christ came to instigate. One-on-one with God.

You might also point out that it is entirely untrue that the kings of Israel were somehow worldly blessed. It was under the kings of Israel that the chosen group was torn apart and remains torn to this day. God cautioned Israel against anointing a king and nothing was ever right under such a sinful political system.

I guess I'd agree with your friend that if I were a Christian caught up in the Law, a Santorum would make me feel all comfy, would make me feel that I could go back to bed because I had a Saul looking out for me. But the doctrines of Christianity repeatedly state that such personal impunity is a thing of the past. t's the fallback for folks who don't quite trust in grace and harbor some secret personal sin that they let cut them off from the new relationship God began with Man when he sent Christ and change the nature of our relationship to the divine.

I think your task is to help your friend get a sense of the excitement, the thrill, of thinking and living under the new covenant, where kings and princes amount to nothing before God. Where, really, no matter what, we are forgiven. Where Christ has given us a direct, dynamic, and powerful relationship to God. The folks who don't want to go there, in my experience, are folks who cannot forgive themselves and, therefore, cannot imagine a God who would.

The switch that needs flipping for your friend is personal. He's got to feel acceptable to God despite all his foibles. He's got to really understand that Christ did all that. Understand that he is truly free. Then he won't have to canoodle about for a Santorum to do that for him. He'l then be free to look for leaders who champion such freedom in everyman to contend with his god alone and humble.

[mosquitobite]

woah dude. LOVE that.

Not that I know if it's true or not (about her holding onto a personal sin) but I love it none the less.

<3

[Beorn]

You got it. Who needs church history, right?

I grew up in a generic nondenominational evangelical church and was taught that real Christians didn't come out of the catholic church during the reformation, but existed in secret groups since biblical times. :doh:

They know what the bible says very well, but that isn't much use if you have no sense of tradition and can't connect the dots from ancient beliefs about what the bible said right up to modern beliefs about what the bible says. Without doing that you end up with a weird circular gnostic type faith where you just know what scripture says because you know what scripture says.

[coffeewithgames]

Well, the video you originally shared seemed pretty basic, the issue some may have is the "concentration" camp line, but overall RP basically was sticking with his same message of non-intervention it seemed.
If he thinks Santorum is a conservative, show him this video:


As for the issue, RP probably watched a video like the following that is attached...if you think the video may help show him a different side a little bit, let me know and I will download/reupload it with a different title, as it's not my video and I don't think the title is necessary:

[Beorn]

Actually the reason I am a libertarian and have been a RP supporter since before it was cool to be is because I had an AWESOME economics professor in college.
Turn Neither Left nor Right

He has also ran as a liberty candidate in case anyone wants to buy his book and help him at a later point

I often ask Christian liberals if they think that people on welfare come to know Christ through that government office. Or would they rather them come to the church for help so that they can come to know His love.

You might be surprised. God brings all manner of people to repent. I think the trick here is that we as Christians must remember that it is God through the agency of the Holy Spirit that drives a person to repent, and not you and I by the power of our logic and arguments.

Sorry, I mis-wrote. What I meant was that a person doesn't have to be converted to a libertarian viewpoint to become an enthusiastic supporter. That might be something you might want to work toward, but my guess is that many social conservatives can be won over to Paul based on what they already believe in principle (not factual things like the threat of iran). They just need to be shown the connections between their beliefs and Paul's platform.

[Sola_Fide]

Good question M.

I would say that what happened when Christ came here to us was a revolution in God's relationship to man. Jesus spent most of his condemning words on the folks who expected something that made sense to them. That made sense under the paradigm they'd studied and prepared for. Christ proclaimed an entirely NEW way of being in relationship with God. An entirely new covenant.

Your friend here is still defining his relationship with God in old covenant terms. It's someone else -- it's the king; it's his group. It's anything but his own responsibility. Anything but the terrible truth that it's just him and God. He doesn't get a pass through aligning with some godly state or being born chosen. It's just a guy and just God. That's the revolution Christ came to instigate. One-on-one with God.

You might also point out that it is entirely untrue that the kings of Israel were somehow worldly blessed. It was under the kings of Israel that the chosen group was torn apart and remains torn to this day. God cautioned Israel against anointing a king and nothing was ever right under such a sinful political system.

I guess I'd agree with your friend that if I were a Christian caught up in the Law, a Santorum would make me feel all comfy, would make me feel that I could go back to bed because I had a Saul looking out for me. But the doctrines of Christianity repeatedly state that such personal impunity is a thing of the past. t's the fallback for folks who don't quite trust in grace and harbor some secret personal sin that they let cut them off from the new relationship God began with Man when he sent Christ and change the nature of our relationship to the divine.

I think your task is to help your friend get a sense of the excitement, the thrill, of thinking and living under the new covenant, where kings and princes amount to nothing before God. Where, really, no matter what, we are forgiven. Where Christ has given us a direct, dynamic, and powerful relationship to God. The folks who don't want to go there, in my experience, are folks who cannot forgive themselves and, therefore, cannot imagine a God who would.

The switch that needs flipping for your friend is personal. He's got to feel acceptable to God despite all his foibles. He's got to really understand that Christ did all that. Understand that he is truly free. Then he won't have to canoodle about for a Santorum to do that for him. He'l then be free to look for leaders who champion such freedom in everyman to contend with his god alone and humble.

If you'll allow me to disagree with that one point, I think this is problematic. It is more closely aligned to the dispensational viewpoint that we would be trying to help this Santorum supporter see is not Biblical.


In the book of Hebrews, the new and better covenant is described as new and better because Christ lives forever as our high priest and can continually make intercession for us before God, whereas the Old Covenant priests were limited by their mortality.


But that is not to say that there was ever any other way that a man is justified before God other than faith. Abraham was justified before God by faith in Christ just like I am today. David was justified by faith just like believers are today.


Paul describes this in Romans 4:

Romans 4:2-13 NASB

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The Old Testament saints were always justified (made right, declared innocent) before God by faith, not works. There has only been one way of salvation in the Old and New Testaments: faith in Christ.

[James Madison]

This person's theology is the problem. Well, dispensationalsim is the problem, at least. It's very important to emphasize that the modern state of Israel has no connection to the Israel of the Bible. Also, point out that God has one plan for all humanity; this idea of dual plans, one for Jews and one for Gentiles, is at the heart of dispensational heresy.

[vechorik]

I told you -- Ron Paul won the Family Values Voter Summit 2011 -- uses the Constitution and Bible to back his political positions (EXCELLENT)
Just ask them to watch this video (YOU STUDY the video), then talk about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnj-5z9NJoY

[Johnny Appleseed]

Our Israel is Cuba, if the Russians pulled out they would take all the hostilities in the region with them just as we would.

[timb2]

Santorum voted for Congress and Senate to receive lobbying gifts.

Santorum voted for the Patriot Act which gives the law to search your house without a warrant and you even being present because they might say you are a terrorist. What is a terrorist? Can you be a terrorist if you oppose extreme gasoline hikes at the pump or sick of taxes? Can you be a terrorist if they decide to enact gun control on American citizens,they now have the power to search your home looking for guns.

[Okie RP fan]

Please, send him this link from Ron Paul Flix:

http://ronpaulflix.com/2011/10/ron-p...st-war-theory/

It is a video with Ron explaining the "Christian Just War Theory."

And also send your friend this, "Blessed are the Peacemakers" from one of his speeches:

http://ronpaulflix.com/2011/10/ron-p...e-peacemakers/