help me with a Santorum (Christian) supporter

[mosquitobite]

Please no hate on religion folks. I need help from a Christian perspective though. These are the people that will be voting for Santorum.

From a friend:

I just can't vote for this guy. He almost had me, but he certainly doesn't anymore. I will say this just for food for thought: all through the Old Testament, when a king did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, everything was wonderful. But when the king did evil in the eyes of the Lord, his country suffered greatly. To me that's a lesson that we need to be looking for the candidate that will do what is right in the eyes of the Lord. The closest candidate to filling those shoes is Rick Santorum...it certainly is NOT Ron Paul. We can agree to disagree....

http://youtu.be/d1t4O9CcZQ0

[JakeH]

I'm sure God wants us bombing thousands of innocents in Iran.

[mosquitobite]

This is my current response; haven't sent it yet.

I see Israel (the current country) as very different than the people of Israel (Jews). I do not see our country's greatness tied to the country of Israel - and in fact our country has declined considerably since the formation of it! (not blaming Israel at all - just making the correlation that supporting Israel has not been what has hinged our country's greatness is all)

Also, our founders set up our country to replicate the Trinity (executive, judiciary, & legislative) and specifically did NOT want to give one man king powers. (just as God didn't want to give Israel a king)

You do know that Muslims trace their ancestry back to Abraham, right? They believe Muhammed is a descendant of Ishmael. Given that, and that I know God always has a plan - I truly do not believe that who we elect as President is what He hinges His blessings on.

[qh4dotcom]

Ask him if he supports all the wars Santorum wants to wage.

[Jovan Galtic]

I just can't vote for this guy. He almost had me, but he certainly doesn't anymore. I will say this just for food for thought: all through the Old Testament, when a king did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, everything was wonderful. But when the king did evil in the eyes of the Lord, his country suffered greatly. To me that's a lesson that we need to be looking for the candidate that will do what is right in the eyes of the Lord. The closest candidate to filling those shoes is Rick Santorum...it certainly is NOT Ron Paul. We can agree to disagree....

Right thing in the eyes of the Lord is peace:

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God."
(Mat 5:9)

[olehounddog]

Matthew 7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

[TroySmith]

I like to talk about the passage of taking the mote out of our own eye before concerning ourselves (America) with our brothers (other countries).

[Sola_Fide]

Ask him to read 1st Samuel 8 to see what God thinks about a king.

[mosquitobite]

I like to talk about the passage of taking the mote out of our own eye before concerning ourselves (America) with our brothers (other countries).

Which is also in Matthew. Ha! I'm seeing a trend here...

[mosquitobite]

Ask him to read 1st Samuel 8 to see what God thinks about a king.

I had already sent her that video of Ron Paul at the faith & freedom conference.

[PierzStyx]

This is my current response; haven't sent it yet.

Good call on the Ishmael thing. Biblically Ishmael, the first son of Abraham, had twelve sons, much like Israel, Abraham's grandson did. From these twelve children of Ishmael the Middle Eastern, and specifically Arab people, descend. Note that the Jews are not all of the House of Israel, but an extremely small part of it, 1/12th in fact. Also note that when God promised Abraham that his descendents would have right to the land that became the nation of Israel He did not say to Abraham "And thy posterity through Isaac shall have this land" but He told Abraham ALL his descendants, which INCLUDES Ishamel's posterity, would have claim and right to the land. This means that the Palestinians, who are descended from Abraham through Ishmael, have any equal right to be on that land as much as the Jews, who are descendants of Isaac, do.

Also encourage them to read Revelation. While it says there that the Jews will return to Israel and build a temple it no where says that they will be God's chosen and protected people. Nor does it say another nation on the earth will be there to protect and help them. In fact from a Christian perspective they must remain wicked to the very end as a nation because when Christ comes again He judges them as harshly as He does the Gentiles because they have not accepted Him as Savior and Messiah but only do so when He come sin full power and glory and they can no longer deny it. Read Zechariah for more on that. Then ask if God would have us support a wicked government? Also you could hammer home that God does not need our help. He is fully capable of protecting the modern nation state of Israel if it is righteous. For us to fight for Israel but very possibly against the will of God is to waste time, money, and lives fighting against Heaven in a fight we will lose.


Have them read 1 Samuel where the Prophet Samuel has God Himself denounce kings and kingly power as evil. Point out that if Rick Santorum wants more and more power like those listed in 1st Samuel as being evilly wielded by a king then he (Santorum) is also wielding power evilly. To wield earthy power evilly is to fight against the will of God, as King Saul and David both found out. Santorum cannot be on God's side if He is against God's commandments.

Also, what are your friend's specific concerns? Get to the root of the matter and post it here and we can help resolve those concerns.

[eduardo89]

If they are not in Iowa or SC I wouldn't worry too much just yet. Once their primary date comes Santorum won't be in the race. Start converting now, but once Santorum, Bachmann and Perry are out, she'll have no choice but to support Ron!

[mosquitobite]

I agree Eduardo - but I like to refine my discussions and I also like to give others ideas in case they come across the same issues.

[eduardo89]

I agree Eduardo - but I like to refine my discussions and I also like to give others ideas in case they come across the same issues.

That's true. Look up the thread AquaBuddha posted about Christian Zionism. Great points to refute any allegiance to Israel issues most Christians seem to have in the states. (views which seem utterly ridiculous to me)

[Jovan Galtic]

One very important thing is to dismantle that distorted interpretation of the Bible. Are there any theologians on the forum?

[mosquitobite]

Also you could hammer home that God does not need our help. He is fully capable of protecting the modern nation state of Israel if it is righteous. For us to fight for Israel but very possibly against the will of God is to waste time, money, and lives fighting against Heaven in a fight we will lose.

AWESOME comeback! +1 rep

[Meiun]

I would simply point out historical fact. Ron Paul is pro-life and has proven it. Santorum claims it, but references it only in the cause of anti-abortion. How does a true christian reconcile saving the life of a newborn but condoning endless war and the destruction of so many lives by our actions as a nation? If they try to say "well God ordered the deaths of many nations through the hands of Joshua.. etc." my response would, That's old covenant. Aren't we living under a new covenant with Jesus? I believe he called for peace, love, forgiveness...

[Sola_Fide]

Ask her if she even knows about Christians like Samuel Adams and Patrick Henry.

Would Samuel Adams vote for No Child Left Behind? Would Patrick Henry vote for Medicare part D?

Now, which candidate is moreso in the American Christian tradition of Samuel Adams? Santorum or Paul?



Ugh...these evangelicals today are so utterly a-historical that it gets old even pointing this stuff out. Their idea of political history starts with what they remember in the 1980's rather than the 1780's.

[GunnyFreedom]

Remember also that one of the most important things Jesus Christ came to Israel to stop 2000 years ago was the attempts by the scribes and the Pharisees to write their interpretations of God's doctrines into civil law. The scribes and Pharisees had so abused God's mercy and gift of free will, that God actually removed the life-giving law from them, because they had converted it into an instrument of death.

Likewise today, the political Christian Coalition is pushing to convert the doctrines of Christ into civil law. They are turning the Gospel of life into an instrument of death. This is the apostasy that Christ warned us would come. Those who feel righteous for inflicting the violence of Caesar against lost sinners for transgressions against Christian doctrine are no different than the Pharisees who felt righteous for inflicting the violence of Herod against lost sinners for transgressions against Mosaic law.

This is a perversion of the Gospel and a heresy. We may never agree on this until we stand together before the Bema judgement seat of Christ. I for one trust that God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever, and that the same God who reigns over us today is the same God who watched over Jesus Christ as He fought the scribes and the Pharisees of His day.

[Beorn]

Ugh...these evangelicals today are so utterly a-historical that it gets old even pointing this stuff out. Their idea of political history starts with what they remember in the 1980's rather than the 1780's.

That correlates with their knowledge of religious history which doesn't go any farther back than billy graham.

[vechorik]

I'm phoning from home at the moment and can't search it, but the speech Dr. Paul made to win the Values Summit Poll -- YouTube.
He was speaking to Christians, using the Bible as a basis for his Constitutional positions (which makes a lot of sense).

[Sola_Fide]

That correlates with their knowledge of religious history which doesn't go any farther back than billy graham.

You got it. Who needs church history, right?

[Beorn]

I don't think you'll ever get them to totally buy into the idea that the federal government shouldn't be used to push a religious agenda. I would focus on the multitude of evidence that Paul is a good Christian man like Santorum, but unlike Santorum Paul can be trusted to push massive spending and tax cuts resulting in a smaller government and thus empowering the church to do more for the cause of Christ. Nothing would do more for the church than ending entitlements and allowing the church to fill the gaps by finally performing it's duty of preaching the Gospel in word and deed.

[Bonnieblue]

I frankly do not know what the person means by doing right in the sight of the Lord. Not that I do not understand the phrase from the Bible, but I do not know how the person applies it to Santorum but not to Dr. Paul. If you can have a further dialogue with this person ask what specifically puts Santorum right in the sight of the Lord and where Dr. Paul seems to fall short. Listen to the person. Do NOT attempt to reform her theology. If you can get a response to the question which I suggest, get back to us. I am very interested in this because I have scores of "conservative" Christians, of which I am one, who, unlike me, see Dr. Paul as a danger to the Faith. At the core of the problem is usually Israel. Not far behind it is "he does not support the troops." They are also confused about where he is when he denounces the war on drugs. With this lady, it might be something seemingly deeper.

[mosquitobite]

I don't think you'll ever get them to totally buy into the idea that the federal government shouldn't be used to push a religious agenda. I would focus on the multitude of evidence that Paul is a good Christian man like Santorum, but unlike Santorum Paul can be trusted to push massive spending and tax cuts resulting in a smaller government and thus empowering the church to do more for the cause of Christ. Nothing would do more for the church than ending entitlements and allowing the church to fill the gaps by finally performing it's duty of preaching the Gospel in word and deed.

Actually the reason I am a libertarian and have been a RP supporter since before it was cool to be is because I had an AWESOME economics professor in college.
Turn Neither Left nor Right

He has also ran as a liberty candidate in case anyone wants to buy his book and help him at a later point

I often ask Christian liberals if they think that people on welfare come to know Christ through that government office. Or would they rather them come to the church for help so that they can come to know His love.

[GunnyFreedom]

I don't think you'll ever get them to totally buy into the idea that the federal government shouldn't be used to push a religious agenda. I would focus on the multitude of evidence that Paul is a good Christian man like Santorum, but unlike Santorum Paul can be trusted to push massive spending and tax cuts resulting in a smaller government and thus empowering the church to do more for the cause of Christ. Nothing would do more for the church than ending entitlements and allowing the church to fill the gaps by finally performing it's duty of preaching the Gospel in word and deed.

You might be surprised. God brings all manner of people to repent. I think the trick here is that we as Christians must remember that it is God through the agency of the Holy Spirit that drives a person to repent, and not you and I by the power of our logic and arguments.

[mosquitobite]

I frankly do not know what the person means by doing right in the sight of the Lord. Not that I do not understand the phrase from the Bible, but I do not know how the person applies it to Santorum but not to Dr. Paul. If you can have a further dialogue with this person ask what specifically puts Santorum right in the sight of the Lord and where Dr. Paul seems to fall short. Listen to the person. Do NOT attempt to reform her theology. If you can get a response to the question which I suggest, get back to us. I am very interested in this because I have scores of "conservative" Christians, of which I am one, who, unlike me, see Dr. Paul as a danger to the Faith. At the core of the problem is usually Israel. Not far behind it is "he does not support the troops." They are also confused about where he is when he denounces the war on drugs. With this lady, it might be something seemingly deeper.

Oh it's most definitely Israel. The video I linked is the one she sent me.

[Sola_Fide]

I frankly do not know what the person means by doing right in the sight of the Lord. Not that I do not understand the phrase from the Bible, but I do not know how the person applies it to Santorum but not to Dr. Paul. If you can have a further dialogue with this person ask what specifically puts Santorum right in the sight of the Lord and where Dr. Paul seems to fall short. Listen to the person. Do NOT attempt to reform her theology. If you can get a response to the question which I suggest, get back to us. I am very interested in this because I have scores of "conservative" Christians, of which I am one, who, unlike me, see Dr. Paul as a danger to the Faith. At the core of the problem is usually Israel. Not far behind it is "he does not support the troops." They are also confused about where he is when he denounces the war on drugs. With this lady, it might be something seemingly deeper.

It's funny though...that's usually all I try to do when I talk to evangelicals...reform their doctrine lol. Her theology *is* the problem. It does need to be reformed according to Scripture. She doesn't have a Biblical world view like Samuel Adams did.

[GunnyFreedom]

I frankly do not know what the person means by doing right in the sight of the Lord. Not that I do not understand the phrase from the Bible, but I do not know how the person applies it to Santorum but not to Dr. Paul. If you can have a further dialogue with this person ask what specifically puts Santorum right in the sight of the Lord and where Dr. Paul seems to fall short. Listen to the person. Do NOT attempt to reform her theology. If you can get a response to the question which I suggest, get back to us. I am very interested in this because I have scores of "conservative" Christians, of which I am one, who, unlike me, see Dr. Paul as a danger to the Faith. At the core of the problem is usually Israel. Not far behind it is "he does not support the troops." They are also confused about where he is when he denounces the war on drugs. With this lady, it might be something seemingly deeper.

This. People are inscrutable. There may be all manner of things we can imagine that is causing her angst. For all we know the person may think chocolate chip cookies are satan droppings. Can't really find a direction to approach unless we know her objections.

[mosquitobite]

Israel people! The YouTube in the OP is the video she sent me arguing why she can't support him.