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Thread: Our Responsibility In Iraq

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by TomL View Post
    As a Christian, I believe in repentance, confession and restitution. I believe the Bible teaches those things. If I break a window, I should admit to it, and pay for the repair of the window. If I hit a parked car with my car, I should leave a note. It's called taking responsibility for you actions, and making amends.
    I am a Christian as well. As a Christian do you believe in staying where you are not wanted? Here's what Jesus said about overstaying your welcome.

    Luke 9:5
    If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.


    The Iraqi's have made it clear. They do not want us to stay and "fix" their country. At least the majority Shia do not. The Christians might want us to stay. The Christians also would have preferred that we left Saddam in power since he was protecting their community. But the Shia want us out. The Iraqi president Al Malaki negotiated with Bush that we be out by December 11, 2011. Obama deserves neither credit nor blame by getting us out when he did. But stupid republicans will give him credit and stupid democrats will give us blame.

    My idea of making Iraq a U.S. Territory is just that, and idea. I am open to better idea if you have one. But I don't believe a "leave well enough alone," approach will satisfy God. God has never allowed for that.
    If you think that God wants us to occupy another sovereign nation against it's will then I suggest you go back and read your Bible. Turn off the television and the radio and just read it. Also read some books on non-violence. If you want to help Iraq volunteer to be a missionary. Work under whatever government evolves. Realize that you'll be risking your life, but no more than the soldiers would have to risk their life for some U.S. "territory" that the people of that nation (Iraq) do not want.

    He has always insisted upon national repentance, especially with His chosen people, Israel.
    Repentance means changing your ways. Trying to make Iraq a U.S. territory is not repentance. It's committing the same sin all over again. It would be like a Christian who went to strip clubs before accepting Christ, but then continued to go later using the rationalization that he was there to "witness" to the strippers and "share God's love" through $10s and $20s with Bible verses written on them.

    Finally, God had his fill of Israel's sinfulness that he sent the Roman armies to totally destroy Israel in 70AD. Will God allow the United States to be destroyed as well? That is what we have in store if we do not repent as a nation.
    The Roman empire was destroyed because it kept fighting expansionist wars and eventually went broke. Guess what's happening to the U.S.?

    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #32
    Well, TomL, I respectfully disagree. What you don't understand is that when US forces are somewhere, they may have support of some people (usually minority), but also very strong opposition of majority. That fuels hatred towards the USA and also hatred between those two groups, which results in terrorism and bloodier regional conflicts. The best thing the USA can do is to get out of there immediately and never look back. What happens is responsibility of the people there.

    Also, I disagree that the Bible teaches "national responsibility". Bible teaches personal responsibility, you are responsible for your own sins and repentance. People who made decisions to invade Iraq and commit crimes are personally responsible, not you and other US citizens. You are only responsible if you tolerate their actions and do nothing. As a US citizen, your responsibility is to bring them to justice. Not to go back to Iraq and make things worse.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by LawnWake View Post
    So you're saying that agnostics, atheists, pagans and other people of non-abrahamic religions need to be forced to endorse what you perceive as christian ideals?
    Just to be clear, the ideals expressed in the OP are not the teachings of Christ.


    Luke 9:5
    If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”


    That said, I welcome this kind of debate because it's what we have to face with dealing with the general public. I've heard these ideas expressed before. We need to be able to explain why this thinking is off base.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 12-27-2011 at 11:23 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Just to be clear, the ideals expressed in the OP are not the teachings of Christ.


    Luke 9:5
    If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”


    That said, I welcome this kind of debate because it's what we have to face with dealing with the general public. I've heard these ideas expressed before. We need to be able to explain why this thinking is off base.
    Hence the "what you perceive as christian ideals" part of my post. >.> Regardless of what the christian position on it may be, forcing non-christians to live by christian values is theological tyranny to me. It's like forcing jews to eat bacon.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan Galtic View Post

    Also, I disagree that the Bible teaches "national responsibility". Bible teaches personal responsibility, you are responsible for your own sins and repentance. People who made decisions to invade Iraq and commit crimes are personally responsible, not you and other US citizens. You are only responsible if you tolerate their actions and do nothing. As a US citizen, your responsibility is to bring them to justice. Not to go back to Iraq and make things worse.
    The OLD testament is about the Hebrew's national responsibility. OP needs to realize that the Jesus brought a NEW Covenant to be shared with all the people of the world, and that the biblical Israel is not a nation of Jews, but the promised salvation of all humanity.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
    Level III MACP instructor, USYKA/WYKKO sensei
    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    The OLD testament is about the Hebrew's national responsibility. OP needs to realize that the Jesus brought a NEW Covenant to be shared with all the people of the world, and that the biblical Israel is not a nation of Jews, but the promised salvation of all humanity.
    Exactly Jack. In general, the OT is just a historical book for Christians. Lord Jesus didn't say a word about "nations" and "states" (other than in parables), his Gospel is all about personal responsibility. It looks to me that many American (and other) churches distort Gospel to glorify the state.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan Galtic View Post
    Exactly Jack. In general, the OT is just a historical book for Christians. Lord Jesus didn't say a word about "nations" and "states" (other than in parables), his Gospel is all about personal responsibility. It looks to me that many American (and other) churches distort Gospel to glorify the state.
    That's not true.

    And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
    -Matthew 19:28

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by TomL View Post
    I've been thinking. ...However, the fact is, the United States is responsible for what is happening in Iraq today, and we need to do something about it.
    yeah.

    LEAVE.

  11. #39
    And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

    -Matthew 19:28
    This is about the future world, after the Second Coming and the Resurrection. So, first - it doesn't apply to the current world. Second, all eschatological statements like this use symbolical language - "throne", "twelve thrones", "twelve tribes of Israel" are not literal, but symbolical. It is not about the state of Israel. Moreover, elsewhere is said: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus". So there are no nations in the Kingdom of God. Jews and Greeks are one and the same - people.

    Correct interpretation is that His disciples will will judge the world.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan Galtic View Post
    This is about the future world, after the Second Coming and the Resurrection. So, first - it doesn't apply to the current world.
    I agree with that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan Galtic View Post
    Correct interpretation is that His disciples will will judge the world.
    That sounds like the state to me.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I am a Christian as well. As a Christian do you believe in staying where you are not wanted? Here's what Jesus said about overstaying your welcome.

    Luke 9:5
    If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.”


    The Iraqi's have made it clear. They do not want us to stay and "fix" their country. At least the majority Shia do not. The Christians might want us to stay. The Christians also would have preferred that we left Saddam in power since he was protecting their community. But the Shia want us out. The Iraqi president Al Malaki negotiated with Bush that we be out by December 11, 2011. Obama deserves neither credit nor blame by getting us out when he did. But stupid republicans will give him credit and stupid democrats will give us blame.



    If you think that God wants us to occupy another sovereign nation against it's will then I suggest you go back and read your Bible. Turn off the television and the radio and just read it. Also read some books on non-violence. If you want to help Iraq volunteer to be a missionary. Work under whatever government evolves. Realize that you'll be risking your life, but no more than the soldiers would have to risk their life for some U.S. "territory" that the people of that nation (Iraq) do not want.



    Repentance means changing your ways. Trying to make Iraq a U.S. territory is not repentance. It's committing the same sin all over again. It would be like a Christian who went to strip clubs before accepting Christ, but then continued to go later using the rationalization that he was there to "witness" to the strippers and "share God's love" through $10s and $20s with Bible verses written on them.



    The Roman empire was destroyed because it kept fighting expansionist wars and eventually went broke. Guess what's happening to the U.S.?

    First, Luke 9.5 has no bearing on this situation. Now if you suggest we send in missionaries, and a country says they don't want them, that would be the same.

    It seems you admit that things are worse off for Christians in Iraq since our intervention. It is likely that Christians will be killed that wouldn't have under Saddam Hussein, or with our forces there. Would you agree?

    Since I gave no credit to Obama, I agree.

    Repentance does not mean changing your ways. It means to "change your mind, afterwards." You can check that out in Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Of course, changing your mind will change your actions. So you might say, I changed my mind. We left that place in a shambles of our making.

    I have studied the Bible for most of my life since I was 7 years old. I am going on 56 now. I can't think of anything in the Bible specifically fitting this situation. But, Jesus said, "Love your enemies." We did not do that in Iraq. We need to now. The question is, how do we do that?

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by TomL View Post
    First, Luke 9.5 has no bearing on this situation. Now if you suggest we send in missionaries, and a country says they don't want them, that would be the same.

    It seems you admit that things are worse off for Christians in Iraq since our intervention. It is likely that Christians will be killed that wouldn't have under Saddam Hussein, or with our forces there. Would you agree?

    Since I gave no credit to Obama, I agree.

    Repentance does not mean changing your ways. It means to "change your mind, afterwards." You can check that out in Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Of course, changing your mind will change your actions. So you might say, I changed my mind. We left that place in a shambles of our making.

    I have studied the Bible for most of my life since I was 7 years old. I am going on 56 now. I can't think of anything in the Bible specifically fitting this situation. But, Jesus said, "Love your enemies." We did not do that in Iraq. We need to now. The question is, how do we do that?
    Again, you keep using this word "we." Who is this "we"?

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    The OLD testament is about the Hebrew's national responsibility. OP needs to realize that the Jesus brought a NEW Covenant to be shared with all the people of the world, and that the biblical Israel is not a nation of Jews, but the promised salvation of all humanity.
    I not only understand that, I have written about it in several article in the Christian Forums at Son of David Forums: http://sonofdavid.myfreeforum.org/index.php

  17. #44
    Well, religious discussions should be banned on the internet, but I hope we continue like brothers in faith...

    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    That sounds like the state to me.
    It is not a state because that judgement is not by force. It is unconditional love which makes everyone see himself as he really is. It is like suddenly turning on the light in a dark room full of people which makes everyone see himself and everyone else... Then one is ashamed because of his own conscience. Hence, Christos and his disciples are "judging the world" not by force, but with their love and virtues.

    It is explained very nice here, if you have some time for reading: http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by TomL View Post
    First, Luke 9.5 has no bearing on this situation. Now if you suggest we send in missionaries, and a country says they don't want them, that would be the same.
    The principle is exactly the same. Don't stay where you're not wanted. Regardless at least I've come up with a verse for my position. Please find a single verse to support your position that God wants us to militarily occupy Iraq. If you don't have one then you must admit that you have less Biblical support for your position than I have for mine.

    It seems you admit that things are worse off for Christians in Iraq since our intervention. It is likely that Christians will be killed that wouldn't have under Saddam Hussein, or with our forces there. Would you agree?
    Most have already left. They went to Syria. (You know. The nation we are trying to overthrow now?) They shouldn't have needed to flee to Syria. We should have opened our arms and welcomed them here. That is our Christian responsibility. Instead we helped resettle Kurds (most in middle TN near where I live) because that was more "politically correct" and fit in with the "Evil Saddam killing the Kurds" narrative. The few that are left in Iraq should leave. We would only make their lives worse by occupying Iraq just so they could stay.


    Since I gave no credit to Obama, I agree.
    Good. But you're missing the most important part. The Iraqi people do not want us to stay. Therefore it would be violating Christian teachings to stay.

    Repentance does not mean changing your ways. It means to "change your mind, afterwards." You can check that out in Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Of course, changing your mind will change your actions. So you might say, I changed my mind. We left that place in a shambles of our making.
    You need a new dictionary.

    1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
    2a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one's mind


    Turning from sin = changing your ways. If you sin, then "change your mind" about sin, but keep on willfully sinning you have not repented.

    I have studied the Bible for most of my life since I was 7 years old. I am going on 56 now. I can't think of anything in the Bible specifically fitting this situation. But, Jesus said, "Love your enemies." We did not do that in Iraq. We need to now. The question is, how do we do that?
    You cannot show love by forcing yourself on someone else. That's called rape, not love.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  19. #46
    At the end of the day - all of this has nothing to do with Christianity. Every state is the enemy of Christianity and can not be "christian" other than people in power abusing the Gospel to manipulate other people.

    "My Kingdom is not of this world".
    Last edited by Jovan Galtic; 12-27-2011 at 12:26 PM.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I agree with that much.



    That sounds like the state to me.
    Yeah. The key difference is how this state is established and by whom.

    Daniel 2:34

    While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.


    John 18:36

    Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."


    If Christians would realize that their only duty in establishing Christ's kingdom is to establish it in our own hearts and then invite others to do the same then the world would be a better place.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by TomL View Post
    I've been thinking. I have been hearing how bad it is in Iraq since the U.S. military moved out. I am not going to rehash whether or not we should have or should not have went to war with Iraq. That fact is we did.

    Before our intervention in Iraq, Saddam Hussein ran that country with an iron first, and there was relative peace. Since our intervention, we left a soft government in control. I thought this would happen.

    We caused this problem and we have to fix it. What I think we should do is go back in and take over the country, and make it a U.S. Territory. Build a huge base there, as we have done with other U.S Territories like Guam. Then we can rule Iraq with an iron fist the way it was under Saddam Hussein.

    I only suggest this because the problems that now exist in Iraq are our fault. People are being killed today that should not be, and wouldn't be if it weren't for our intervention. The blood of Iraqis from now on is on our hands, thanks to George W. Bush, who should be held accountable for crimes against humanity, and will be at the throne of God some day, unless he repents, and confesses to the nation that what he did was wrong.

    Unfortunately, I don't believe there is anyone in power, or will be in power anytime soon, in this Country that will hold George W. Bush accountable for his crimes.

    However, the fact is, the United States is responsible for what is happening in Iraq today, and we need to do something about it.
    The media has pushed this narrative upon you, and it appears you bought it hook, line and sinker. They want to make it look like the US needs to be heavily involved, but that is not true. They do not want us there. They do not want "help" from the US government.

    And secondly, your hypothesis that the "US ruling Iraq with an iron fist would be better" is so wrong it is truly scary. it would not be good for anyone! It would only make the situation worse. It would cost the US taxpayers, it would cost military lives, it would cost Iraqi lives, it would take away Iraqi freedom and liberty, it would go one step further towards making the world a totalitarian Police State, where peopl have no rights at all.

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate. - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  23. #49

    Thumbs down Topic

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VY4_hfqQW0E

    Anti-Hero, Activist, Purist, and Free.

    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. -JFK

    Successful people in life do what unsuccessful people don't feel like doing.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    +rep. Adding to sig:
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    +rep. Adding to sig:
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate. - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

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