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Thread: Steve Horwitz - How Did we Get Here? (Good Read)

  1. #1

    Steve Horwitz - How Did we Get Here? (Good Read)

    http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com...-so-damn-much/

    This article will probably piss a lot of people off, but I thought it was worth reading from a fairly regarded austrian economist

    thoughts?
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  3. #2
    Did you get the impression that Steve had to go wash his hands about 50 times to get the paleo-libertarian stink off after writing that piece?

    I've always pictured Lew and Murray as down in the trenches, sleeves rolled up and willing to get down in the mud to advance their ideas, doing all the intellectual hard lifting, by the way, while people like Steve stood off to the side in their starched shirts and complained. Sure, the paleo-lib faction made some mistakes, but look where we are now, with Ron poised to win Iowa. Would we be here if Steve was the guy in charge of advancing Austrian ideas? Obviously not.

    Anyway, they all wrote these same hand-wringing posts four years ago and as soon as Ron wasn't winning, they dropped it. So much for their dedication to purifying the cause of all us unsavory characters who support Ron through it all.

    Politics is about building coalitions and Murray was right. Witness the success of Ron Paul.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    Did you get the impression that Steve had to go wash his hands about 50 times to get the paleo-libertarian stink off after writing that piece?

    I've always pictured Lew and Murray as down in the trenches, sleeves rolled up and willing to get down in the mud to advance their ideas, doing all the intellectual hard lifting, by the way, while people like Steve stood off to the side in their starched shirts and complained. Sure, the paleo-lib faction made some mistakes, but look where we are now, with Ron poised to win Iowa. Would we be here if Steve was the guy in charge of advancing Austrian ideas? Obviously not.

    Anyway, they all wrote these same hand-wringing posts four years ago and as soon as Ron wasn't winning, they dropped it. So much for their dedication to purifying the cause of all us unsavory characters who support Ron through it all.

    Politics is about building coalitions and Murray was right. Witness the success of Ron Paul.
    Yeah, I agree, I think Steves point not that you shouldn't build coalition, but that it matters who you build coalitions with.

    Although I agree, Ron Paul has definetley taken a ragtag bunch and been able to break the idea of Liberty to mainstream and Ron Paul is and will always be my hero for waking me up.
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  5. #4
    That was a great read. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexMerced View Post
    Yeah, I agree, I think Steves point not that you shouldn't build coalition, but that it matters who you build coalitions with.

    Although I agree, Ron Paul has definetley taken a ragtag bunch and been able to break the idea of Liberty to mainstream and Ron Paul is and will always be my hero for waking me up.
    Yeah, but you know Steve is never going to build a coalition with anyone. Lew, Murray, and Ron actually did it and sure it's messy and not perfect, but when is politics ever perfect? Never.

    I see even La Postrel has shown up to inject some venom. Ha, it's really burning them up that Ron's doing so well.

  7. #6
    Been following Horwitz facebook page since yesterday. It has some interesting exchanges

  8. #7
    The absolutely amazing thing is that ALL of us find the writings to be repugnant and we all know that Ron is actually a decent guy who would never feel hold those views.

    ...the article really does do a wonderful job of giving us some perspective on all of this, and you have to wonder why Ron -a man of immeasurable principle- would take part in such an effort with Rothbard and Rockwell. That seems very odd.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    Yeah, but you know Steve is never going to build a coalition with anyone. Lew, Murray, and Ron actually did it and sure it's messy and not perfect, but when is politics ever perfect? Never.
    Dude, you don't build coalitions on mutual hatred, ignorance, and bigotry. That is a MASSIVE failing of Rothbard. It can't be excused.

    Ends do not justify the means.



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  11. #9
    Ron always kind of stood apart from all that stuff. His goal was to advance a freedom agenda and Austrian economics in the real-world political sphere.

  12. #10
    This article doesn't diminish voting for Paul, it's about owning the past, again, we can agree that mistakes were made, that has nothing to do with being a die hard supporter now.

    This just gives some history for those of us who are trying to understand the context those newsletter were born from, I don't see any reason for Steve not to be telling the truth in the this article he's pretty honest thoughtful guy.
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  13. #11
    Incidentally, I don't have a problem with the way Paul has handled this mess. He's said he's imperfect and made more/careless decisions. That's enough for me.

    But as a movement we need to know the backstory, and I thank you for posting it.

  14. #12

  15. #13
    Why are we supposed to abandon the Old Right? What is wrong about being anti-New Deal and non-interventionist?

    Yes, the content of the letters are bad and libertarians should disavow them. Paul isn't a racist and did not pen those letters.

    But reading this blog post made something come to light. The Bleeding Heart Libertarians (Reason included) are anxious to use this phony scandal as an attempt to destroy and association with the right and forge a new alliance with the left. Horwitz said it himself: we have to abandon the Old Right. Why? What is wrong about being a libertarian-conservative? Why is he trying to link the Old Right with racism? I think he is using this scandal to try and redirect the libertarian movement towards his own ideal. Same with Reason. The Libertarian movement should not be on one side or the other but encompass both sides. I am an admitted right-libertarian: I don't like abortion, I think marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman and I believe multiculturalism leads to "balkanization" of a country. That being said, I am libertarian in that I do not wish to use force to make people adhere to my ideals. That's what libertarianism is.
    An optimist is there to be hopeful when all have lost hope.

    A pessimist is there to cast doubt when no one has any.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    Did you get the impression that Steve had to go wash his hands about 50 times to get the paleo-libertarian stink off after writing that piece?

    I've always pictured Lew and Murray as down in the trenches, sleeves rolled up and willing to get down in the mud to advance their ideas, doing all the intellectual hard lifting, by the way, while people like Steve stood off to the side in their starched shirts and complained. Sure, the paleo-lib faction made some mistakes, but look where we are now, with Ron poised to win Iowa. Would we be here if Steve was the guy in charge of advancing Austrian ideas? Obviously not.

    Anyway, they all wrote these same hand-wringing posts four years ago and as soon as Ron wasn't winning, they dropped it. So much for their dedication to purifying the cause of all us unsavory characters who support Ron through it all.

    Politics is about building coalitions and Murray was right. Witness the success of Ron Paul.
    Correct me if I'm wrong. To me your post implies that, somehow, the RR forays into pandering to bigots was somehow helpful into getting to where we are now and/or that LRC/LvMI groups of Austrians are largely responsible for helping Ron Paul reach political popularity.

    I don't think either is true. I think Ron Paul's increased popularity has very little to do with which scholars are advancing Austrian ideas, and I don't think his strategy has been set/influenced by any of that stuff, either. Most RP supporters probably have very little knowledge of who any of these players even are and not that much conscious interest in Austrian economics.

    I think Ron Paul is popular because of Ron Paul and a few basic policy beliefs that resonate with millions of people.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shellshock1918 View Post
    Yes, the content of the letters are bad and libertarians should disavow them. Paul isn't a racist and did not pen those letters.
    I agree with most of your post, and I wouldn't categorize the Old Right as racist as some are doing. I guess I would say abandon those in the old Right that are ( and some do want to use force).

    As far as the part I quoted, I agree completely. Unfortunately, there are a lot of supporters here and elsewhere that refuse this and are going out of their way to stick up for not just Ron Paul but the CONTENT of the newsletters. Those who are saying that he didn't write them AND that there isn't anything bigoted/wrong in the Newsletters either haven't read them, are in denial, or just completely oblivious. There are problems with the content of the Newsletters, and I would not suggest going the route of sticking up for them. Not because it "'isn't PC" or not just for political reasons, but because the objectionable content in the newsletters IS bad and not consistent with libertarianism ( political,cultural, or otherwise). Frankly, the more I see people praise the content of the newsletters and/or makeup excuses,it does dampen some of my passion. Because, it IS supposed to be about the ideas and not the just the man, and I want to make sure the right ideas are getting across.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shellshock1918 View Post
    Why are we supposed to abandon the Old Right? What is wrong about being anti-New Deal and non-interventionist?

    Yes, the content of the letters are bad and libertarians should disavow them. Paul isn't a racist and did not pen those letters.

    But reading this blog post made something come to light. The Bleeding Heart Libertarians (Reason included) are anxious to use this phony scandal as an attempt to destroy and association with the right and forge a new alliance with the left. Horwitz said it himself: we have to abandon the Old Right. Why? What is wrong about being a libertarian-conservative? Why is he trying to link the Old Right with racism? I think he is using this scandal to try and redirect the libertarian movement towards his own ideal. Same with Reason. The Libertarian movement should not be on one side or the other but encompass both sides. I am an admitted right-libertarian: I don't like abortion, I think marriage is defined as being between a man and a woman and I believe multiculturalism leads to "balkanization" of a country. That being said, I am libertarian in that I do not wish to use force to make people adhere to my ideals. That's what libertarianism is.
    As someone who would also classify himself as an old right, Robert Taft style conservative/libertarian, I agree completely with this assessment. The movement is growing, which is great, but we shouldn't forget that we're basically an offshoot of the old right Republicans and we're still fighting a lot of the same battles that they were fighting back then: progressive foreign entanglements, interventionist social programs, currency debasement, machine politics, etc.

    EDIT: Ugh. I just actually read that article. It has a few tiny good points but is largely BS.
    Last edited by White Bear Lake; 12-24-2011 at 01:31 AM.
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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by KingNothing View Post
    Dude, you don't build coalitions on mutual hatred, ignorance, and bigotry. That is a MASSIVE failing of Rothbard. It can't be excused.

    Ends do not justify the means.
    What a load of bs. Substantiate your claims, because you will find they are incredibly baseless.

    Withdraw your falsehoods, or understand that you are incredibly ignorant and talking about matters you clearly haven't understood.

    To alleviate your ignorance read this for some REAL PERSPECTIVE.


    by Justin Raimondo
    “I will be as harsh as truth, and uncompromising as justice... I am in earnest, I will not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retreat a single inch, and I will be heard.” ~ William Lloyd Garrison

    Quote Originally Posted by TGGRV View Post
    Conza, why do you even bother? lol.
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  21. #18
    holy wow. Been reading all this stuff for the last hour or two and I feel like I've just taken the red pill and am now starting to understand what's really going on here, the huge history and different sub-factions of the movement, and how everyone's manipulating each other to advance their views. As a young voter getting interested in libertarianism this is very interesting and shows I've got a lot of reading and learning to do to learn about what Ron Paul is really all about.

    It's interesting how things aren't really so black and white in a lot of cases despite what people like to tell themselves. Most of the public sees this issue as either Ron Paul is a racist and he's lying or Ron Paul isn't a racist and the media is smearing. It sounds like this is a lot more complicated and has deep, deep roots that go back many years.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by eric4186 View Post
    holy wow. Been reading all this stuff for the last hour or two and I feel like I've just taken the red pill and am now starting to understand what's really going on here, the huge history and different sub-factions of the movement, and how everyone's manipulating each other to advance their views. As a young voter getting interested in libertarianism this is very interesting and shows I've got a lot of reading and learning to do to learn about what Ron Paul is really all about.

    It's interesting how things aren't really so black and white in a lot of cases despite what people like to tell themselves. Most of the public sees this issue as either Ron Paul is a racist and he's lying or Ron Paul isn't a racist and the media is smearing. It sounds like this is a lot more complicated and has deep, deep roots that go back many years.
    The bottom line, all Libertarians want to further Liberty whether it be Horwitz, Paul, Stossel, Gillespie, Rockwell, or Rothbard

    The Libertarian movement has just been known for a lot of internal differences over how to further that Goal, but all these people are still good Liberty loving people even thought they have their differences which is why people who think they need to choose sides in these quarrels frustrate me.

    I think it's important to understand these to seem educated and knowledgeable, but as part of a new generation of Libertarians I would rather attempt to Unite the Mises/Rockwell Right Libertarians and Reason/Cato Left Libertarians because at the end of the day they have a LOT more in common, so I'm not one to be part of this quarrel, though I think a lot of us younger folks should be aware.
    Alex Merced - A Champion of Freedom
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  23. #20
    That article was total bs.

    One could write a similar article 20 years from now that:

    -- A pro-life, anti-choice stance on abortion is wildly anti-libertarian, and that true libertarians who valued freedom sold out by working with pro-lifers.
    -- Christianity and religion in general are inherently faith and violence-based, and that true libertarians who valued freedom sold out by working with Christians, and supporting a candidate who believes evolution is a theory.
    -- Minarchism and constitutional conservatism are anathema to anarchism, and that the unholy alliance between anarchists and constitutionalists has set back the development of a real anarchist society.

    Etc..

  24. #21
    Educational read for sure, I learned somethings.

    I don't like the idea that we have to kiss the ass of either the left or the right.

  25. #22
    Wow, this has been an incredibly interesting thread.

    I understand how the 80s Libertarians must have been frustrated with Corporate Republicans success with the Southern Strategy. It used a few non-monetary issues
    to trap a majority bloc of voters into voting Republican for decades. The corporate and neo-con interests behind the scenes provided the money in exchange for RNC
    support of their economic and foreign policy initiatives. I guess Libertarians figured if they wanted any chance of winning, they had to pander to these people too.
    The newsletters got there because they'd had their asses kicked for too long.

    When W won in 2000, I think the Corporatist Republicans saw their Southern Strategy was about to die. So took from America in 8 years what they would have normally spent 30 years squeezing. The 99% noticed.

    Fast-forward to 2011 when the Southern Strategy is on life support. Newt and Perry use it but don't stand a chance. Romney is morphing into Obama to capture what
    seems to be a majority coalition. The political system is in flux. Corporatists need a new "strategy". They might even re-constitute their coalition before it's over. But the 99% is awake now and has better communication tools with which to fight. For better or for worse (I definitely think for better) we have Ron Paul as standard
    bearer for the 99%. Kucinich, Nader, and Grayson are on the left for the 99% but it's a tiny army.

    Now the corporate media know Ron's Achilles heel is "the newsletters". Releasing them during primaries, especially just before southern primaries, is most damaging to our
    campaign. Because many of the Southern primary voters still have Confederate flags on their windshields. It would be much easier to disavow in the general election because these voters will still vote Republican. But right now, disavowing will lose voters to Newt. He would paint us as leftists (gay-loving, druggies). At least that's what MSM hopes.

    So we have to deal with the newsletters now and not in the general. We will have a non-stop barrage of negative news on the newsletters. I think Ron's strategy of
    confining the issue to "it wasn't me, I don't know who did it, and I disavow it" is smart for him. But I don't think it will be enough. We do not have a single MSM talking
    head who will go to bat for us. As individuals who spend hours a day thinking about this, we need to stand firm. Remind people to not be distracted from the big picture.

    For those of us who have the advantage of being black, homosexual, or Jewish, I recommend each of you to upload a testimonial to YouTube like TMOT's:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxtT2SdZ8ZU . His is the best response I've seen. We just need a thousand more.

  26. #23

  27. #24
    We just need to keep reaching out, keep explaining, most people I've personally discuss about the newsletters havn't been hard to demonstrate that Ron Paul didn't write them, they stay on the Ron Paul bandwagon, but every agree it was stupid these ever came out.
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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexMerced View Post
    We just need to keep reaching out, keep explaining, most people I've personally discuss about the newsletters havn't been hard to demonstrate that Ron Paul didn't write them, they stay on the Ron Paul bandwagon, but every agree it was stupid these ever came out.
    http://web.archive.org/web/200902170...s-for-nothing/

    Dear Cato Institute and David Boaz, THANKS FOR NOTHING!

    Newsletter commentary. Flashback. Quality read.
    “I will be as harsh as truth, and uncompromising as justice... I am in earnest, I will not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retreat a single inch, and I will be heard.” ~ William Lloyd Garrison

    Quote Originally Posted by TGGRV View Post
    Conza, why do you even bother? lol.
    Worthy Threads:

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexMerced View Post
    http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com...-so-damn-much/

    This article will probably piss a lot of people off, but I thought it was worth reading from a fairly regarded austrian economist

    thoughts?
    Boring wall of text almost smelling like a faint hit-piece on Ron Paul.

    He is welcome to go pound salt.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Boring wall of text almost smelling like a faint hit-piece on Ron Paul.

    He is welcome to go pound salt.
    Steve Horwitz is a fairly respected person in the Liberty movement, been around a lot longer than most of us in this movement, and I think this was just a honest perspective.

    I love Ron Paul, we love Ron Paul, but we got to stop acting that if anybody has a different perspective than us that:

    - It's a dishonest smear attempt
    - They don't believe in liberty like we do
    - they are part of the "system"

    Yes, the Mainstream media is conducting huge smear trying to make it out that ROn Paul wrote the letter, what Horwitz and Weigel have both said in their respective articles is not quite that, but looking into the context of the period of time using facts such as tax records to help explain why these came about.

    Horwitz is in the article even implies that we should still vote Ron Paul, but discussing the implication of the past of the movement as a whole.

    Not everything is soley about Ron Paul.

    I campaign hard, I want Paul to win, but let's not get tunnel vision either.
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  32. #28
    Steve Horwitz is a good economist and a groovy dude. He's right, you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoshLowry View Post
    Yongrel can post whatever he wants as long as it isn't porn.

  33. #29
    Horwitz may be a decent guy, but in writing the article he's way more interested in showing what an enlightened guy he is than in trying to actually advance the cause of liberty. It actually *isn't* Ron's fault, and doesn't reflect poorly on him, that some guys from Stormfront support him. Freedom is popular even with marginal characters and if his Goldwater-style in-theory-only opposition to the Civil Rights act makes them think he's blowing some sort of dog whistle for them, he isn't to blame for that. I'd also be curious what evidence he has that the Mises guys are associated with anti-semites (it would be pretty ironic since as I recall Mises was Jewish).
    I would also say that much of the supposedly awful material from the newsletters is pretty weak, as racist material goes.
    Mostly I'd say this is yet another case of one of the cosmopolitan libertarians being secretly pissed off that someone from the paleo side is doing far better than anyone from their faction has ever done.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexMerced View Post
    Steve Horwitz is a fairly respected person in the Liberty movement, been around a lot longer than most of us in this movement, and I think this was just a honest perspective.

    I love Ron Paul, we love Ron Paul, but we got to stop acting that if anybody has a different perspective than us that:

    - It's a dishonest smear attempt
    - They don't believe in liberty like we do
    - they are part of the "system"

    Yes, the Mainstream media is conducting huge smear trying to make it out that ROn Paul wrote the letter, what Horwitz and Weigel have both said in their respective articles is not quite that, but looking into the context of the period of time using facts such as tax records to help explain why these came about.

    Horwitz is in the article even implies that we should still vote Ron Paul, but discussing the implication of the past of the movement as a whole.

    Not everything is soley about Ron Paul.

    I campaign hard, I want Paul to win, but let's not get tunnel vision either.
    I'm glad you added "fairly" there, to me I read "barely", and agreed wholeheartedly.

    I'm sorry but who has done what you are suggesting? Name names... because general statements like that call for the assertion/accusation to be backed up. I'm highly doubtful.

    Comments on David Boaz and Cato please. Reason is part of that crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by yongrel View Post
    Steve Horwitz is a good economist and a groovy dude. He's right, you know.
    Who is Steve Horwitz? /double entendre
    “I will be as harsh as truth, and uncompromising as justice... I am in earnest, I will not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retreat a single inch, and I will be heard.” ~ William Lloyd Garrison

    Quote Originally Posted by TGGRV View Post
    Conza, why do you even bother? lol.
    Worthy Threads:

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