Utah man wants to pay taxes with silver.

[xFiFtyOnE]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/news/2...silver/1971656

[brushfire]

Clever

[Seraphim]

Dumb. Might as well just piss away your future prosperity. Give them their flimsy paper, not your true wealth!

[cubical]

Each silver coin is $1 legal tender, right? I am sure the government wouldn't mind that.

[Dr.3D]

Each silver coin is $1 legal tender, right? I am sure the government wouldn't mind that.

I forget, wasn't it Utah that legalized the use of silver and gold as payment?

I'm pretty sure it was.... so the silver doesn't necessarily have to be in the form of government coin.

Edit: Again, I should have read the article before posting. LOL
Still, silver rounds could be used if the state would follow it's own laws.

Edit2: Ahhh... I was wrong. Please excuse me.

[Chester Copperpot]

Each silver coin is $1 legal tender, right? I am sure the government wouldn't mind that.

I believe the utah law recognizes the currency at its precious metal value...

[Steven Douglas]

I believe the utah law recognizes the currency at its precious metal value...

Utah now recognizes gold and silver coin, but only that which is minted by the US government, and only at face value. Not the value of the precious metal or the coins in terms of their exchange rate with free-falling Fiat Ponzi notes. Just the face value of the coinage itself. One silver dime = one silver dime, with no distinction between silver and base metal coinage, but also no reference or respect given to Fiat Ponzi notes. Utah really was cocking its snoot at the Fed when it passed that law.

That means I can open a bakery in Utah, completely bypass and reject fiat currency altogether, accepting nothing but a dime per loaf in silver coin only, and then turn around and pay taxes on that amount (also in silver coin, so as to avoid charges of tax evasion, given a proven respect for fiat currency).

The only problems with that, among others:

1) The State of Utah is not set up to accept gold and silver coinage yet, even though it was declared legal tender (making Utah the only State that actually complies with its Constitutional obligation in that regard).

2) the Federal government wants everything translated and valued through its wonderful free-floating Fed notes, the value of which was never declared by Congress. So the currency gets to float as it is treated as putative standard of some kind, and every time the Ponzi currency suffers an ever-increasing loss in value relative to everything else, the IRS can interpret that loss as a "capital gain".

[brushfire]

Dumb. Might as well just piss away your future prosperity. Give them their flimsy paper, not your true wealth!

What appealed to me was getting the government to recognize it as legal tender. Then you have a competing currency, no?

[hazek]

and only at face value.

I have read the entire bill and I didn't find this part in it. So do you have any proof to back up your statement?

[Keith and stuff]

I have read the entire bill and I didn't find this part in it. So do you have any proof to back up your statement?

Are we really going to have this discussion again

59-1-1502. Gold and silver coin.

(1) Gold and silver coin issued by the federal government is legal tender in the state.

So for example, these are a $50 coin and a $1 coin. That is the coin value.
http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/...ction=AmEagUnc

That is pretty much the related part of the bill. The rest of the bill is mostly about how UT cleaned up some of the nasty taxes on gold and silver and a study committee.

[Steven Douglas]

I have read the entire bill and I didn't find this part in it. So do you have any proof to back up your statement?

Excerpted from the bill: note the words in bold.

This bill recognizes gold and silver coins that are issued by the federal government as legal tender in the state and exempts the exchange of the coins from certain types of state tax liability.
....
Nonrefundable tax credit for capital gain transactions on the exchange of gold and silver coin for another form of legal tender.

"another form of legal tender" refers specifically to Federal Reserve Notes - the only "other form of legal tender" in that state besides gold and silver coin.

Because Utah law is governed by the U.S. Constitution, gold and silver coin is the only form of currency in that state which can be viewed within its federally legislated Constitutional definition, which never went away. "ONE DOLLAR" in "another form of legal tender", like Fed Notes, is meaningless. It is a borrowed name only - and not even a promise to pay. As such, it has no "face value". That is one of Ron Paul's points that he has hammered home to Congress for years - that they WILL NOT define a value for the Fed "dollar".

"ONE DOLLAR" as relates to a United States minted silver dollar (a DIFFERENT form of legal tender), on the other hand, actually has a face value, which has legislated meaning, and an actual value definition that is well understood on the federal level. That face "value" has NOTHING whatsoever to do with "price", or "market value" or even exchange value as a purchasing medium relative to anything else, including Federal Reserve notes, but refers only to the metal content and purity in each coin - as established by law.

So it is silly to say "valued according to their weight and not their face value" - because weight and purity ARE their face value by definition.

Lastly, the bill's provision to "study the possibility of establishing an alternative form of legal tender" is partly because the two forms are now conflated to mean the same thing, which gives the federal government waffle-room on "face value". In other words, which currency, both of which are called a dollar, is really a dollar, when the value of only one is defined in itself, but the "market value", or exchange rate of each relative to other commodities is not the same? Right now you really can buy a gallon of gas "for a dime" in some places. An alternate form of currency in Utah could potentially eliminate that entirely.

You hear "snickering" fools mock the hypothetical idiot who would be somehow willing to buy a Snickers bar for a Gold Eagle - but such an uncritically thinking moron doesn't consider that is not how it works at all. Because gold and silver coin are recognized by Utah as "another form of legal tender". That means that goods and services could be priced in both Fed Notes AND gold coin AND silver coin - all separately. No differently than "Canadian Dollars" OR "Australian Dollars" OR "US Fed Note Dollars", none of which have the same exchange value for goods and services, despite their common name.

[hazek]

Are we really going to have this discussion again



So for example, these are a $50 coin and a $1 coin. That is the coin value.
http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/...ction=AmEagUnc

That is pretty much the related part of the bill. The rest of the bill is mostly about how UT cleaned up some of the nasty taxes on gold and silver and a study committee.

Wow, how can you come to such an outrageously stupid conclusion? The bill says absolutely nothing about the value. Not a peep! And somehow you want to assume that just because it limits it's affect on only government minted coins, this somehow means that they have to be taken at face value?! Wow... just wow.


All the bill says is this:
Which coins it affects: those minted by the federal government
Legislated status change: they are now also considered legal tender



Go try and buy $1 silver coin on the market for $1 if you think that's what their value is. In fact, go try and buy it from the U.S. Mint at that price, see how they'll laugh at you.

[hazek]

"ONE DOLLAR" as relates to a United States minted silver dollar (a DIFFERENT form of legal tender), on the other hand, actually has a face value, which has legislated meaning, and an actual value definition that is well understood on the federal level. That face "value" has NOTHING whatsoever to do with "price", or "market value" or even exchange value as a purchasing medium relative to anything else, including Federal Reserve notes, but refers only to the metal content and purity in each coin - as established by law.

This is a slightly better argument supporting the claim that the coins should be taken at face value but I'm not convinced. If you are right, and "1 dollar" is under law indeed also a 1oz silver coin then it shouldn't be too difficult to find such a law to support your argument. Unless I'm shown a law or statute that defines this I will not believe this face value nonsense. Period.

[John F Kennedy III]

Wow, how can you come to such an outrageously stupid conclusion? The bill says absolutely nothing about the value. Not a peep! And somehow you want to assume that just because it limits it's affect on only government minted coins, this somehow means that they have to be taken at face value?! Wow... just wow.


All the bill says is this:
Which coins it affects: those minted by the federal government
Legislated status change: they are now also considered legal tender



Go try and buy $1 silver coin on the market for $1 if you think that's what their value is. In fact, go try and buy it from the U.S. Mint at that price, see how they'll laugh at you.

You can't have a rational discussion without resorting to personal attacks? Got it.

[hazek]

You can't have a rational discussion without resorting to personal attacks? Got it.

It's not like I didn't make a valid argument with evidence in support while calling YOUR CONCLUSION stupid, so cry me a river.

[Zippyjuan]

So it is silly to say "valued according to their weight and not their face value" - because weight and purity ARE their face value by definition.

Face value and metal content value are not the same thing. If that is true, then by definition this would be $50 worth of gold- or would define the price of gold as being $50 an ounce since it has a face value of $50 and contains one ounce of gold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Gold_Eagle

Definition of Face Value:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/face+value

face value

n
1. (Economics, Accounting & Finance / Banking & Finance) the value written or stamped on the face of a commercial paper or coin
2. apparent worth or value, as opposed to real worth

From the bill text:

(1) Gold and silver coin issued by the federal government is legal tender in the state.

Legal tender means acceptable at face value- not based on content. The bill does not define legal tender as the metal value of the coins.

[hazek]

Zippyjuan I think he meant a legislated definition, all I want is for him to produce the law or statute he is referring to and I'll be 100% convinced I was wrong.

[Zippyjuan]

Thanks. The bill also says "exchange" which would seem to imply (again, they don't define) gold or silver coins for Federal Reserve notes at face value rather than at metal content basis.

This bill recognizes gold and silver coins that are issued by the federal government as legal tender in the state and exempts the exchange of the coins from certain types of state tax liability.

[Steven Douglas]

Zippyjuan I think he meant a legislated definition, all I want is for him to produce the law or statute he is referring to and I'll be 100% convinced I was wrong.

The legal definition is precisely what I meant. The value of a US minted 90% silver dollar was established by the Coinage Act of 1792 (pdf).

Excerpted from the Coinage Act of 1792 - the basis of ALL 90% silver dollars minted by the US government:

DOLLARS OR UNITS--each to be of the value of a Spanish milled dollar as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver.

From American Jurisprudence, Volume 36, AS 8
[T] he term "dollar" means money, since it is the unit of money in this country, and in the absence of qualifying words, it cannot mean promissory notes or bonds or other evidences of debt.. The term also. refers to specific coins of the value of one 'dollar. (27 Ohio Jur pp. 125, 126, AS 3), (United States v. Van Auken, 96 US 366, 24 L ~d 852)

With respect to all United States coins, the USC has provided for base-metallic coinage, gold coinage, and silver coinage, all denominated in “dollars.”

• Silver coinage consists of a coin that is inscribed “One Dollar,” weighs “31.103 grams,” and contains one ounce of “.999 fine silver.”
• A "dollar coin” weighing “8.1 grams,” composed of copper and nickel.
• A “fifty dollar gold coin” that “weighs 33.931 grams, and contains one troy ounce of fine gold.”

What is important to note here is that EACH coin, while different in composition, is legislatively defined as struck. So if you have a base metal dollar, or a fractionated 40% silver dollar, they are different currencies, the respective values of which are:

• Base metal dollar: 22.68 grams, 75% copper, 25% nickel, with a center layer of 100% copper, OR
• 40% silver dollar: 24.59 grams, with outer layers of 80% silver with a center of 20.9% silver. Aggregate 60% copper, 40% silver, and a silver content of 0.3164 troy ounce (9.841 grams)

The "value" of those coins can certainly be brought into question and debated, given that the USC mandated that the Treasury was to keep Federal Reserve notes and other legal tender (which all base metal coins are) "at parity". That never happened, but that is moot, and irrelevant to what determines the "face value" of 90% silver coins. Forgetting the "face value" of debased coinage, the face value of a 90% silver coin minted by the US has never been in question, as it was already determined by the 1792 Coinage Act that defined it.


One of the best videos you could ever watch on the subject, and it lays out the foundation clearly.

[Zippyjuan]

Thank you for the information. The Coinage Act of 1792 has been updated many times during our country's history (as the Constitution allows- "(5) To coin money, regulate the value thereof," - including the 2005 Coinage act which authorized the Golden dollar program. PDF of that act: http://www.usmint.gov/downloads/mint_programs/$1coin/2009AttachA.pdf These coins are also defined as legal tender as are Federal Reserve Notes. The act you cite describes what a dollar coin was to be made from at that time but does not define the value of the metal content. The act also cites a dollar coin made from copper and nickel which was to have the same value- one dollar- as the silver coin- so that does show that the value was the face value and not the metal content value.

•Silver coinage consists of a coin that is inscribed “One Dollar,” weighs “31.103 grams,” and contains one ounce of “.999 fine silver.”
•A "dollar coin” weighing “8.1 grams,” composed of copper and nickel.
•A “fifty dollar gold coin” that “weighs 33.931 grams, and contains one troy ounce of fine gold.”

However, I am wondering if there is an error there and the second line is describing a "cent" coin and not a dollar coin. Miscopied (no link was provided to be able to double check)? In either event, later legislation has changed what constitutes a dollar. We are no longer under a gold or silver standard so there is no defined price in terms of gold or silver for a dollar.

"Legal tender" according to legislation is:
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...al-tender.aspx

The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

1999 Coin Act:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/us...2----000-.html

(a) The Secretary of the Treasury may mint and issue only the following coins:
(1) a dollar coin that is 1.043 inches in diameter.

(2) a half dollar coin that is 1.205 inches in diameter and weighs 11.34 grams.

(3) a quarter dollar coin that is 0.955 inch in diameter and weighs 5.67 grams.

(4) a dime coin that is 0.705 inch in diameter and weighs 2.268 grams.

(5) a 5-cent coin that is 0.835 inch in diameter and weighs 5 grams.

(6) except as provided under subsection (c) of this section, a one-cent coin that is 0.75 inch in diameter and weighs 3.11 grams.

(7) A fifty dollar gold coin that is 32.7 millimeters in diameter, weighs 33.931 grams, and contains one troy ounce of fine gold.

(8) A twenty-five dollar gold coin that is 27.0 millimeters in diameter, weighs 16.966 grams, and contains one-half troy ounce of fine gold.

(9) A ten dollar gold coin that is 22.0 millimeters in diameter, weighs 8.483 grams, and contains one-fourth troy ounce of fine gold.

(10) A five dollar gold coin that is 16.5 millimeters in diameter, weighs 3.393 grams, and contains one-tenth troy ounce of fine gold.

(11) A $50 gold coin that is of an appropriate size and thickness, as determined by the Secretary, weighs 1 ounce, and contains 99.99 percent pure gold.

(b) The half dollar, quarter dollar, and dime coins are clad coins with 3 layers of metal. The 2 identical outer layers are an alloy of 75 percent copper and 25 percent nickel. The inner layer is copper. The outer layers are metallurgically bonded to the inner layer and weigh at least 30 percent of the weight of the coin. The dollar coin shall be golden in color, have a distinctive edge, have tactile and visual features that make the denomination of the coin readily discernible, be minted and fabricated in the United States, and have similar metallic, anti-counterfeiting properties as United States coinage in circulation on the date of enactment of the United States $1 Coin Act of 1997. The 5-cent coin is an alloy of 75 percent copper and 25 percent nickel. In minting 5-cent coins, the Secretary shall use bars that vary not more than 2.5 percent from the percent of nickel required. Except as provided under subsection (c) of this section, the one-cent coin is an alloy of 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc. In minting gold coins, the Secretary shall use alloys that vary not more than 0.1 percent from the percent of gold required. The specifications for alloys are by weight.

(c) The Secretary may prescribe the weight and the composition of copper and zinc in the alloy of the one-cent coin that the Secretary decides are appropriate when the Secretary decides that a different weight and alloy of copper and zinc are necessary to ensure an adequate supply of one-cent coins to meet the needs of the United States.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

Foolish. He should keep the silver.

[osan]

What appealed to me was getting the government to recognize it as legal tender. Then you have a competing currency, no?

No. All you have is recognition of a commodity with a value. The two are not the same.

[Athan]

Clever

No its not. Clever is paying taxes on how much each coin is worth in weight as dictated by the market and not in denomination value after having decades of time to build up a huge savings in silver coins when they were cheaper.

He wants to pay Utah MORE than they wish to collect in Taxes. The fact Utah is denying this payment is beyond stupid for them. They would be making bank with this dude. I should offer to pay his taxes, if he gives me the coins.

[Keith and stuff]

Wow, how can you come to such an outrageously stupid conclusion?

While I find your question unnecessarily rude, the answer is the use of the word coin. The folks on this forum already have a discussion on this issue. I thought pretty much everyone was already on the same page because of that discussion. I noticed that almost everyone (perhaps everyone) also agrees with me this time. However, don't worry, I am not going to be unnecessarily rude to you about it or resort to name calling.

coin = legal government money
silver coin = legal government money
gold coin = legal government money
silver = ?
round = ?
gold = ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender

Coins and notes are usually defined as legal tender.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/coin

1. A small piece of metal, usually flat and circular, authorized by a government for use as money.
2. Metal money considered as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coin

A coin is a piece of hard material that is standardized in weight, is produced in large quantities in order to facilitate trade, and primarily can be used as a legal tender token for commerce in the designated country, region, or territory.

http://coins.about.com/od/coinsglossary/g/round.htm

A round is a precious metal disk usually issued by a private entity and not intended to circulate as money, and which is stamped or struck with images or devices, and sold to collectors and investors as a collectible. Rounds look very similar to actual coins, and it is common to see the term coin used incorrectly where round is really the proper term.

[Steven Douglas]

These coins are also defined as legal tender as are Federal Reserve Notes. The act you cite describes what a dollar coin was to be made from at that time but does not define the value of the metal content. The act also cites a dollar coin made from copper and nickel which was to have the same value- one dollar- as the silver coin- so that does show that the value was the face value and not the metal content value.

Legal tender only describes what must accepted by as tendered in lieu of payment of debts, as if it was payment. That includes FRNS and base metal coins, none of which would ever have been readily accepted by the public otherwise, as evidenced by the fact that they quickly drove all the "good money" out of circulation.

However, I am wondering if there is an error there and the second line is describing a "cent" coin and not a dollar coin. Miscopied? In either event, later legislation has changed what constitutes a dollar.

Yes it was a quick copy, as I didn't care about the specific base metal content - if it was in error (still too lazy to look it up), take it to mean debased content, whatever it is.

I didn't mention the Coinage Act of 1999 because it was a piece of deliberately mushy-fuzzy ambiguity that describes "a dollar coin", without actually touching the definition or value of a "dollar" as a UNIT. Note that it was no accident that all the base metal coins listed in the Act were prescribed with a specific weight except for a "dollar". Only the diameter was prescribed. The weight was untouched, because the dollar itself, and not any fraction or multiple thereof, is already established as an official monetary UNIT, the value of which was already clearly defined in 1792 based on weight and purity. We can describe and redefine fractions thereof (base metal change) or multiples (X10 Eagles), but while you can imitate it, counterfeit it, shortchange it with debased change, etc., the base DOLLAR OR UNIT itself (unit = UNIT OF MEASUREMENT) which originally defined the UNIT VALUE of a silver dollar CANNOT be redefined without ramifications, including Constitutional challenges, as that would be tantamount to redefining a "gallon", or a "foot".

Coinage Acts subsequent to 1792 affected the coins created by those Acts only - the putative implied value (via legal tender laws), was to be "at parity" with all other forms in existence. As such, Fed Notes and base metal coins are force-fungible imitations, the value of which is never specifically declared, but only implied based on fiat conflation of unlike currencies. Saying what it is redeemable with forced acceptance of unlike items is not the same thing as defining (or undefining) it.

None of that matters to the Utah Legal Tender Act, as no federal coinage Act did anything to 'redefine' the face value of 90% silver dollars which had already been minted according to the legally established definition as outlined in 1792. No matter what happened after 1964, DOLLARS OR UNITS [minted prior to 1965 were] each to be of the value of a Spanish milled dollar as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver.

Those particular dollars really do have a legally defined "face value", which has not been changed, or been redefined since. Those dollars only.

[Steven Douglas]

No. All you have is recognition of a commodity with a value. The two are not the same.

For all intents and purposes, Fed Notes are treated by the public and the world at large as nothing more than another commodity of a given, albeit sliding/plunging, value. So yes, in that regard, the two are very much the same. Ignoring the Keynesian pop-economist's fixation and insistence on a paradigm that recognizes money as a form of debt only, since the Utah legal tender act refers indirectly to Federal Reserve Notes as "another form of legal tender", that does, in fact, make gold and silver coin a separate, and therefore competing, form of currency.

[cubical]

Are we really going to have this discussion again



So for example, these are a $50 coin and a $1 coin. That is the coin value.
http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/...ction=AmEagUnc

That is pretty much the related part of the bill. The rest of the bill is mostly about how UT cleaned up some of the nasty taxes on gold and silver and a study committee.

So can I pay my employees 1 gold coin bi-weekly and only have taxes on $50?

[Steven Douglas]

So can I pay my employees 1 gold coin bi-weekly and only have taxes on $50?

Sure you can, just ask Robert Kahre, a self-made Las Vegas entrepreneur who did just that. He paid his workers in gold and silver coin at face value, did not withhold taxes from wages, and provided that same payroll system to 35 outside local business clients.

You can read all about it here.

[Bern]

Utah man from OP was clearly trying to break the law. Gresham's law that is.

[cubical]

Sure you can, just ask Robert Kahre, a self-made Las Vegas entrepreneur who did just that. He paid his workers in gold and silver coin at face value, did not withhold taxes from wages, and provided that same payroll system to 35 outside local business clients.

You can read all about it here.

Yeah I remember that. What a shame he was convicted.