Worldwide debt forgiveness

[enjerth]

Yeah wasn't every 6 or 7 years? Supposed to be what the bankruptcy laws are based on or something.

The 7th years is the sabbath for the land. You know, to stop destroying your ecosystem and let the land rebuild itself. Every 7th sabbath for the land was the Jubilee, which ensures that children do not lose their inheritance (the land returns to the ownership of the family it was sold from) and that they don't get burdened with debt by their fathers too greatly. All debt is temporary, and the price is based on how long it is until the Jubilee.

Yes. Those goat herders seem to have something that was divinely inspired.

[Paul Or Nothing II]

Money can NOT be created out of nothing. That is the illusion.

Call it "illusion" or whatever you want, it's known as commercial-bank-money but the name is irrelevant

POINT IS that the borrowers buy REAL goods/services with it, which drives up demand & prices & cause inflation & savers DO lose purchasing-power because of that until that "illusion" is extinguished & moneysupply goes back

Borrowers are not required to pay the thief that stole from him.

The "thief" didn't really steal from the borrower but it's the "thief" AND THE BORROWER that stole from the savers

Savers are the losers because they have not done their due diligence. Savers bought into a fraudulent system ... The Federal Reserve System. The smart savers will convert from fake to real money before the crash.

Converting to "real money" does NOT prevent complete loss of purchasing-power, it merely reduces the damage caused to the savers because remember, the borrowers are buying REAL goods/services with that "illusion" so there are LESS goods/services for savers than there otherwise would be, so even those with "real money" ARE losing purchasing-power anyway

I agree. It would be wise to follow what Dr. Edwin Vieira Jr. prescribes in "The Purse & The Sword"

Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, 100% redeemable.

Sure but if debt around the world is massively pardoned then that's going to destroy so much capital & purchasing-power that future production would pretty come to a standstill, & there would be extreme hardships for everyone, due to irresponsible borrowing by the borrowers, they get free stuff & savers who acted responsibly must also face a downgrade in their living-standards, that's just indirect theft, an tax for being acting responsibly; it could have long-term impact on the credit-markets & savers/lenders will be reluctant to lend & the productive businesses would find it harder to raise capital, & getting loans for their projects, which would the production of goods/services & living-standards of EVERYONE; all of these long-term economic consequences must be kept in mind

[WilliamC]

Call it "illusion" or whatever you want, it's known as commercial-bank-money but the name is irrelevant

POINT IS that the borrowers buy REAL goods/services with it, which drives up demand & prices & cause inflation & savers DO lose purchasing-power because of that until that "illusion" is extinguished & moneysupply goes back



The "thief" didn't really steal from the borrower but it's the "thief" AND THE BORROWER that stole from the savers



Converting to "real money" does NOT prevent complete loss of purchasing-power, it merely reduces the damage caused to the savers because remember, the borrowers are buying REAL goods/services with that "illusion" so there are LESS goods/services for savers than there otherwise would be, so even those with "real money" ARE losing purchasing-power anyway



Sure but if debt around the world is massively pardoned then that's going to destroy so much capital & purchasing-power that future production would pretty come to a standstill, & there would be extreme hardships for everyone, due to irresponsible borrowing by the borrowers, they get free stuff & savers who acted responsibly must also face a downgrade in their living-standards, that's just indirect theft, an tax for being acting responsibly; it could have long-term impact on the credit-markets & savers/lenders will be reluctant to lend & the productive businesses would find it harder to raise capital, & getting loans for their projects, which would the production of goods/services & living-standards of EVERYONE; all of these long-term economic consequences must be kept in mind

And this is exactly what Central Banks try to do, and you are making their case for them.

Continue.

[DGambler]

Once you understand this: Big Govts Are Pathocracy, Rule by Psychopaths, you'll understand why Worldwide Debt Forgiveness will never happen voluntarily.

[Paul Or Nothing II]

If savings is based on debt of another is that really savings?

So let's say someone steals all of your money that's alright???

What money is IRRELEVANT, question is when more of it is created, it's loses purchasing-power & you can buy less & less stuff with it so if you're going to hold government/Fed & banks responsible for the loss in purchasing-power then DEFAULTING BORROWERS are just as much the thieves

Remember, nobody forced them to go in debt, they VOLUNTARILY CHOSE to enter into a contract, if they don't pay then they've little right to point fingers at government/Fed & banks, because they're just much the thieves & culprit because most of the moneysupply is comprised of "commercial-bank-money" which is created every time somebody borrows from banks & moneysupply is decreased when they repay so if they don't repay & decrease moneysupply they'd increased then they've essentially stolen from savers to the extent of amount unpaid

if you've given your savings to someone else who spent it, you don't have any savings, just a promise that someone will return what you had (presumably with interest).

You don't have to put your money in a bank to lose purchasing-power, when borrowers borrow that causes inflation & if they default then you'll lose purchasing-power as a saver; they'll have indirectly stolen from you to the extent of amount unpaid

[Paul Or Nothing II]

And this is exactly what Central Banks try to do, and you are making their case for them.

Continue.

Yes, central-banks steal purchasing-power from the savers SO DO DEFAULTING BORROWERS

I guess freeloaders & thieves do anything to justify their actions but a free society won't be initiated by freeloaders & thieves who believe that just because A steals from B, it's ok for C & D & everyone to steal from B as well

Freeloaders & thieves unwilling to take responsibility for their actions will only breed a corrupt society & because there are so of them is the precise reason why the world is so corrupt already

[Travlyr]

Yes, central-banks steal purchasing-power from the savers SO DO DEFAULTING BORROWERS

I guess freeloaders & thieves do anything to justify their actions but a free society won't be initiated by freeloaders & thieves who believe that just because A steals from B, it's ok for C & D & everyone to steal from B as well

Freeloaders & thieves unwilling to take responsibility for their actions will only breed a corrupt society & because there are so of them is the precise reason why the world is so corrupt already

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

Banker gets the privilege to print money ... counterfeit. He prints money for the borrower. Borrower buys a home and pays the banker back 2.5 times as much as he borrowed. Banker likes this deal so banker prints a lot of money and loans it to a lot of borrowers to buy homes. Since there is so much money floating around for home loans the price of housing increases with borrowers bidding against each other causing people to pay more for the home than they are really worth. The bankers keep printing money, relax their borrower qualification requirements, and give money to any borrower that can sign the papers. They give no documentation loans to whoever wants a home (No Credit Check - No Income Verification - No Money Down). The price of housing skyrockets. Some people qualify for the loan but others just sign and move in. That is what happened to the housing market from 2003 - 2007. The housing bubble inflated.

Then Wall Street figured out that if they keep buying bundled securities with liar borrowers they will never get paid back. Wall Street quit buying the securities which meant that Country Wide Home Mortgage didn't have money to bring to the closing table. Buyers defaulted on the purchase contract even though they qualified for the loan because CountryWide couldn't cough-up the cash. The bubble burst. Borrowers quit borrowing, builders quit building, real estate sales plummeted, CountryWide was taken over by Bank of America, AIG was a scam, Goldman Sachs, et. al. got the bailout money to save America's bankers. The price of houses plummeted.

Borrowers lost their jobs when the bankers quit loaning money yet they were expected to keep paying the mortgage on a home worth 1/2 of the purchase price. The borrower's credit rating crashes, he lost his job, home, car, boat, motorcycle, his credit, and in many cases his family.

And the borrower is the bad guy? Keep in mind that these borrowers went to government indoctrination school.

[Seraphim]

Yes, central-banks steal purchasing-power from the savers SO DO DEFAULTING BORROWERS

I guess freeloaders & thieves do anything to justify their actions but a free society won't be initiated by freeloaders & thieves who believe that just because A steals from B, it's ok for C & D & everyone to steal from B as well

Freeloaders & thieves unwilling to take responsibility for their actions will only breed a corrupt society & because there are so of them is the precise reason why the world is so corrupt already

Bolded is incorrect. It increases savers purchasing power because currency becomes more scarce. It DOES, however, reduce the value of the market (say, housing) that has been defaulted upon as supply is dumped onto the market.

Case and point: What happened in 2008? Mass default on homes...what happened? Housing valuations dropped a stunning amount...and deflation took over - wages and savings went UP in value (albeit for a short time until TARP, QE etc).

[WilliamC]

Yes, central-banks steal purchasing-power from the savers SO DO DEFAULTING BORROWERS

I guess freeloaders & thieves do anything to justify their actions but a free society won't be initiated by freeloaders & thieves who believe that just because A steals from B, it's ok for C & D & everyone to steal from B as well

Freeloaders & thieves unwilling to take responsibility for their actions will only breed a corrupt society & because there are so of them is the precise reason why the world is so corrupt already

Yes, please continue to tell us all how arresting the corrupt bankers and politicians who steal from everyone else through their control of the money supply deserve to be left alone with their ill-gotten gains while everyone else who is stolen from much never once think they have any recourse.

It is the establishment you are arguing for, so make it good. Heaven forbid that the status quo should ever change and the fraudulent nature of the entire system be abolished.

You are doing as good a job as possible, given the lies your arguments are based upon.

People create money by borrowing being the main one, when any educated Ron Paul supporter knows that it is the Federal Reserve Bank that creates money, not the people who are forced by government law to use the FRN's.

[Paul Or Nothing II]

Banker gets the privilege to print money ... counterfeit.

You use the term "banker" too randomly, what do you mean by "banker" exactly? Fed & banks are NOT the same thing, they are different entities with different powers!

It's the Fed that PRINTS money, well, actually Treasury does but whatever; NOT the banks

Commercial-banks' ability to create money (or "illusion" or whatever) is limited by how much borrowers borrow, if nobody borrows then commercial-banks can't create any new money or "illusion" or whatever you want to call it
please go through this post - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4361828

Borrower buys a home

Why does the borrower borrow? He does it VOLUNTARILY, nobody forced him to do it & mutual-contracts are the basis of any free society you'll ever envision so if you ever wish to see a free society then it will only come about when most people are willing to take responsibility for one's own actions

What's wrong with LIVING WITHIN ONE'S MEANS? And if one does borrow VOLUNTARILY then isn't it one's responsibility to honor one's contract?

pays the banker back 2.5 times as much as he borrowed.

Where did that number come from??
Bubbles are fueled by commercial-bank-money ("illusion" or whatever) so borrowers themselves were responsible for the rise in prices! Again, did anyone force them? NO, they entered the contract VOLUNTARILY

Banker likes this deal so banker prints a lot of money and loans it to a lot of borrowers to buy homes. Since there is so much money floating around for home loans the price of housing increases with borrowers bidding against each other causing people to pay more for the home than they are really worth.

Again, why did they borrow so irresponsibly? Blame should go to EVERYONE involved - government/Fed, banks & DEFAULTING borrowers
If someone lives within one's means then that person has every right to point fingers at perpetrators BUT anyone who's not repaid their loans have consumed more from the economy than they've given back aka they've stolen from savers

The bankers keep printing money, relax their borrower qualification requirements, and give money to any borrower that can sign the papers. They give no documentation loans to whoever wants a home (No Credit Check - No Income Verification - No Money Down) The price of housing skyrockets. Some people qualify for the loan but others just sign and move in. That is what happened to the housing market from 2003 - 2007. The housing bubble inflated.

Seriously, have you ever heard Ron or any other knowledgeable person talk about the housing crisis in detail???
Government "regulations" banks to make bad loans with Community Reinvestment Act & many other "regulations" contributed to that & that's why you don't see Ron ranting on & on about "evil bankers, evil bankers", he talks SPECIFICALLY about FED & GOVERNMENT!

When you see a WHOLE INDUSTRY making bad decisions, you can bet that there's some kind of government intervention that's fueling it; because the market is self-regulating (I hope you'll at least agree on that), SOME businesses may make bad decisions, they go out of business, other make good decisions & they go on

And guess, many smaller banks went bankrupt & nobody bailed them, it was mostly bigger ones that were bailed out & that's how it pans out every time, so all the conspiracy theorists acting like "all banks were in it together" are ridiculously uninformed about the markets & nature of self-interest! It's nothing more than excessive sensationalization!

Then Wall Street figured out that if they keep buying bundled securities with liar borrowers they will never get paid back.

The purpose of derivative-instruments is to hedge risks, governments had gotten them to make bad loans & they knew it was a ticking bomb so they tried to do what they could & tried to bundle good loans with bad ones but there were simply too many & it was going to explode sooner or later

Again, the black guy keeps asking Ron about derivatives & expects Ron to criticize derivatives BUT Ron keeps steering the topic back to FED & GOVERNMENT because he understands where the problem is!

Bank of America, AIG was a scam, Goldman Sachs, et. al. got the bailout money to save America's bankers. The price of houses plummeted.

When did I say bailouts were justified??? Of course, they should NOT have been bailed out because it's again the question of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS
SIMILARLY, borrowers should NOT get the "bailout" either, they should take responsibility for THEIR actions!

Again, you just can't have a free society unless people learn to take responsibility for their OWN actions, which they VOLUNTARILY engaged in, that's the basis of a free society!
If you mass-pardon the loans then it will only set a precedent for more such socialist measures in the future, it will destroy the credit-markets, productivity & living-standards

Borrowers lost their jobs when the bankers quit loaning money yet they were expected to keep paying the mortgage on a home worth 1/2 of the purchase price. The borrower's credit rating crashes, he lost his job, home, car, boat, motorcycle, his credit, and in many cases his family.

Again, did anyone FORCE them to get loans? NO! If they engage in a VOLUNTARY contract then they must fulfill it! Why didn't they LIVE WITHIN THEIR MEANS

Do you realize that SAVERS are NET-PRODUCERS & BORROWERS are NET-CONSUMERS (until they repay) in an economy so when someone buys something on loan, they're doing it indirectly at the expense of SAVERS

And the borrower is the bad guy? Keep in mind that these borrowers went to government indoctrination school.

Ignorance doesn't absolve one of one's own VOLUNTARY actions!

If we go on a gold-standard or something, there may be a demand from those who didn't wake up in time to buy gold, who may say they had a "late start" so everyone's gold should be nationalized so that everyone had a "fresh start"
Would you be ok with such a proposition??? Would you give up your gold just because others were ignorant earlier & you bought it ahead of time???

Like someone said earlier, it's astonishing that we're even discussing this on f'cking RONPAULFORUMS where people are supposed to be for VOLUNTARY ACTION & PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

It seems as every day passes by, more & more OWSers, socialists/communists, geo-communists & all kind of anti-market, pro-government-intervetion, anti-voluntaryist people are flooding this forum!