Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 68

Thread: Worldwide debt forgiveness

  1. #31

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    BS. The people who own all the debt are the very folks who are in power, and least likely to give up their power.
    Except when 'we the people' take back the power. That is what happened in Iceland. You'll be watching more countries rolling out debt voiding in the next few months.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by InTradePro View Post
    Except when 'we the people' take back the power. That is what happened in Iceland. You'll be watching more countries rolling out debt voiding in the next few months.
    Possible! Socialism is very popular!
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  4. #33

    Default

    This is not a free market works and this is not how economics works. So, we decide to just "forgive" all debt and then what happens when the deficit runs up again?
    SUPPORT LIBERTY IN MASSACHUSETTS - THE BIRTHPLACE OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION IN 2014
    LEAH COLE
    TOM LYONS

  5. #34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Possible! Socialism is very popular!
    I'll confess to copying someone else with this reply because it fits here so well.

    You say any mortgage debt forgiveness is socialism, yet you refuse to consider what mortgages are today versus what mortgages were in years past.

    1) Why did "investment banks" seek deregulation? Answer-because mortgages had been turned into "securities" rather than a contract between an individual borrower and bank.

    2) For what purpose did unregulated banks want more and more "securitized mortgages"? What did they actually DO with them? Answer-they used these as "securities".

    3) What do banks do with securities? Answer-they use them as collateral to borrow against, invest, drive markets.

    4) What's wrong with this? Answer-they don't care about truth in lending=loan status of borrower

    5) Why wouldn't they care? Answer-first they didn't register title-deed, or insure, or pay taxes on; rather invented, then used MERS="mortgage electronic registry service".

    6) But then these "registrations" are illegal? Answer-yes. They were quite temporary, as they moved to other hands after 2 more illegal stages. Also, noone paid state taxes, or registration fees, costing states-counties millions in taxes.

    7) MERS contains no assets-it will do no good to sue them for damages to customers.

    8) How big a problem is this? Answer-studies by entire counties show 90% of mortgages were handled through MERS.

    9) Where did mortgages go next? Answer-they were sent to offshore subsidiaries, to be broken up (to hide actual value), called "tranches". Then pieces were put together with credit card, student loan, car loan debt, etc.

    10) What good did this do banks? Answer-banks had rating agencies they paid, rate what are now called "mortgage backed securities" (MBS) "AAA", or "AA", then sold these off to pension funds, investment groups, fanni-mae or freddi-mac, etc.

    11) So what is the real value of MBS? Answer-banks are not required to release these figures, as republican legislation disallowed audits. Also, MBS were held on separate set of books.

    12) So what is being done with them today? Answer-3 years after banks figured out they held too much bad MBS debt, they are holding them, letting out a little at a time, to not flood the market and run down their value...economists say it is likely to take another 15 quarters minimum, to release most.

    13) Where are the title-deeds then? Answer-banks are being threatened in many states with foreclosure fraud over illegally foreclosing without title-deed. But each state has different regulations. Washington State agrees to "hold harmless" if people walk away from underwater loans. This is because banks do not hold title-deed.

    14) What are banks doing with these properties? Answer-they are selling off for as much as possible as fast as they can, while not flooding market to destroy "value". In essence, they are fraudulently selling, on basis they don't need to supply title-deed till 30 years later.

    15) the basis of U.S. society is private property-the basis of private property is legal ownership...

    Read more: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2012/a...#ixzz1sE43sqc7
    Keep arguing for the bankers Nothing, you're doing a great job!
    Ron Paul: He irritates more idiots in fewer words than any American politician ever.

    NO MORE LIARS! Ron Paul 2012

  6. #35

    Default

    I think forgiving all debt would be a great way to restart the economy

  7. #36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Massachusetts View Post
    This is not a free market works and this is not how economics works. So, we decide to just "forgive" all debt and then what happens when the deficit runs up again?
    The "debt" hurts the SAVERS much more than it hurts bankers; all those who didn't make stupid decisions & didn't go in debt will experience a much lower living-standard at the expense of the borrowers, who get free stuff at the expense of the SAVERS

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamC View Post
    I'll confess to copying someone else with this reply because it fits here so well.

    You say any mortgage debt forgiveness is socialism, yet you refuse to consider what mortgages are today versus what mortgages were in years past.

    Keep arguing for the bankers Nothing, you're doing a great job!
    Again, you've little understanding of how economics works or where the capital comes from to produce goods/services so obviously you'd argue for freelaoding but savers are unnecessarily punished as their purchasing-power STOLEN by borrowers & bankers

    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    I think forgiving all debt would be a great way to restart the economy
    Of course, for the freeloaders it would be but what about those who saved & saw their purchasing-power dwindle beacuse of the stupid borrowers & bankers?

    But I guess freeloaders don't care so long as they get to benefit at the expense of the savers
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  8. #37

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    The "debt" hurts the SAVERS much more than it hurts bankers; all those who didn't make stupid decisions & didn't go in debt will experience a much lower living-standard at the expense of the borrowers, who get free stuff at the expense of the SAVERS
    What are the savers saving? Paper? Electronic digits acquired through privilege?

  9. #38

    Default

    periodic debt forgiveness is required in the Old Testament - it's called "Jubilee"

    funny how those primitive, ignorant goat-herders got so much so precisely correct, you'd almost think they were divinely inspired
    “If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

    - SAMUEL ADAMS

  10. #39

    Default

    Nice to see you still at it.

    Please continue to tell us this story about these mythical 'borrowers' and 'savers', they are good entertainment.

    Please continue to belittle those with whom you are conversing when you are unable to refute their comments.

    It's good to see the establishments side of the story.
    Ron Paul: He irritates more idiots in fewer words than any American politician ever.

    NO MORE LIARS! Ron Paul 2012

  11. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    What are the savers saving? Paper? Electronic digits acquired through privilege?
    As far as I can tell it is some sort of karma based system, maybe like the rep bars we have here.

    Savers get to feel good that they are leaving their money at zero interest in the hands of those who are robbing them blind and they get to blame the borrowers for all their problems since the borrowers are getting free stuff because the savers would rather not buy stuff and the bankers just get to keep everything anyway so shut up and stop arguing that anything be done about the system because if you do you are hurting the savers.

    At least that's what I get out of Nothings comments.
    Ron Paul: He irritates more idiots in fewer words than any American politician ever.

    NO MORE LIARS! Ron Paul 2012

  12. #41

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    periodic debt forgiveness is required in the Old Testament - it's called "Jubilee"

    funny how those primitive, ignorant goat-herders got so much so precisely correct, you'd almost think they were divinely inspired
    Yeah wasn't every 6 or 7 years? Supposed to be what the bankruptcy laws are based on or something.
    Click here for a free copper round. Every three people you get signed up, you get another free round! NO PURCHASE NECESSARY!

  13. #42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    What are the savers saving? Paper? Electronic digits acquired through privilege?
    PURCHASING-POWER!

    So are you saying that when someone creates new money, savers don't lose purchasing-power? That they don't experience inflation? That their living-standards aren't lowered than what they should be?

    When you make a case about NOT STEALING people's purchasing-power then it must be against EVERYONE that accompanies the process - Fed/government, banks & DEFAULTING BORROWERS

    I'm HOPING that at least you know (many here don't it seems) that commercial-bank-money is created when banks lend, meaning new money is created when borrowers borrow, inflation is created, savers lose purchasing-power; on the other hand, when debt is repaid, the moneysupply decreases & thereby purchasing-power of the savers increases

    Are you getting what I'm referring to?
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  14. #43

    Default

    The entire fiat money system is a fraud. Who will you blame when the fiat dollar completely collapses and nobody can pay anybody back in real value? The borrower, the saver, or the fake system?

  15. #44

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    PURCHASING-POWER!

    So are you saying that when someone creates new money, savers don't lose purchasing-power? That they don't experience inflation? That their living-standards aren't lowered than what they should be?

    When you make a case about NOT STEALING people's purchasing-power then it must be against EVERYONE that accompanies the process - Fed/government, banks & DEFAULTING BORROWERS

    I'm HOPING that at least you know (many here don't it seems) that commercial-bank-money is created when banks lend, meaning new money is created when borrowers borrow, inflation is created, savers lose purchasing-power; on the other hand, when debt is repaid, the moneysupply decreases & thereby purchasing-power of the savers increases

    Are you getting what I'm referring to?
    Didn't you once argue that money had to be tangible? Purchasing-power must then be tangible too.

  16. #45

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    The entire fiat money system is a fraud. Who will you blame when the fiat dollar completely collapses and nobody can pay anybody back in real value? The borrower, the saver, or the fake system?
    If you want an honest a free market, sound money & free society then first you must have people who believe in TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS! If you don't hold onto that principle then there will never be an honest system because there are too many irresponsible people who believe in freeloading at the expense of others

    I'm asking a straight-forward question - if you dislike dilution of your purchasing-power then shouldn't EVERYONE who's involved in the process be held responsible?
    Again, when borrowers borrow, it creates money, it dilutes purchasing-power of the savers & if they don't repay then that newly created money is NOT reduced, so they'll have essentially stolen purchasing-power from savers & never restored it back
    What's the difference in it whether you lost purchasing-power because Fed created money or whether you lost purchasing-power because irresponsible borrowers never repaid & reduced moneysupply which they'd previously increased?

    Ron Paul isn't waiting for a collapse, he's hoping for a TRANSITION before the collapse because I'm sure he knows more than anyone that in the times of great economic distress, it is the nature of the State to grow & it will be likely that a free-system won't necessarily come out of such a collapse
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  17. #46

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    If you want an honest a free market, sound money & free society then first you must have people who believe in TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS! If you don't hold onto that principle then there will never be an honest system because there are too many irresponsible people who believe in freeloading at the expense of others

    I'm asking a straight-forward question - if you dislike dilution of your purchasing-power then shouldn't EVERYONE who's involved in the process be held responsible?
    Again, when borrowers borrow, it creates money, it dilutes purchasing-power of the savers & if they don't repay then that newly created money is NOT reduced, so they'll have essentially stolen purchasing-power from savers & never restored it back
    What's the difference in it whether you lost purchasing-power because Fed created money or whether you lost purchasing-power because irresponsible borrowers never repaid & reduced moneysupply which they'd previously increased?

    Ron Paul isn't waiting for a collapse, he's hoping for a TRANSITION before the collapse because I'm sure he knows more than anyone that in the times of great economic distress, it is the nature of the State to grow & it will be likely that a free-system won't necessarily come out of such a collapse
    If those at the very top of the pyramid aren't held accountable for their actions then nothing will change, that I agree with.

    Individuals who deliberately set out to commit fraud should be held accountable, that I agree with.

    Individuals who deliberately buy things they know they cannot afford shouldn't automatically get to keep them nor get a free ride, that I agree with.

    But individuals who simply borrow money are not responsible for the fiat money system nor does individual borrowing create money.

    Money, at least in the USA, is created by the Federal Reserve Bank.

    Ron Paul and the vast majority of his supporters understand this.
    Ron Paul: He irritates more idiots in fewer words than any American politician ever.

    NO MORE LIARS! Ron Paul 2012

  18. #47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Didn't you once argue that money had to be tangible? Purchasing-power must then be tangible too.
    Money & purchasing-power are NOT the same thing; purchasing-power is an ECONOMIC CONSTRUCT, it can't be tangible!

    Let's say there are $100 in an economy & 100 goods, you've $10 meaning you can buy 10 goods, that's your purchasing-power, for the moment
    $10 new money is created (whether by Fed or by banks by lending), now there are $110 & 100 goods & as the new money circulates through the economy the prices will re-adjust accordingly & your $10 will only be able to buy 9.09 goods (100/110X10) aka your purchasing-power was taken away
    Now, it could be because Fed created new money or because banks lent (& SOMEBODY BORROWED) or whatever, it's irrelevant to you, it can only be restored by reduction of moneysupply to former level & as you know, when the borrower borrows, it creates new money, when he repays, that previously created money is extinguished & that way your purchasing-power is restored to you; if he doesn't pay back, the moneysupply is NOT extinguished & he'll have essentially stolen purchasing-power from all the existing holders
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  19. #48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    If you want an honest a free market, sound money & free society then first you must have people who believe in TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS! If you don't hold onto that principle then there will never be an honest system because there are too many irresponsible people who believe in freeloading at the expense of others

    I'm asking a straight-forward question - if you dislike dilution of your purchasing-power then shouldn't EVERYONE who's involved in the process be held responsible?
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Again, when borrowers borrow, it creates money, it dilutes purchasing-power of the savers & if they don't repay then that newly created money is NOT reduced, so they'll have essentially stolen purchasing-power from savers & never restored it back
    What's the difference in it whether you lost purchasing-power because Fed created money or whether you lost purchasing-power because irresponsible borrowers never repaid & reduced money supply which they'd previously increased?
    Money can NOT be created out of nothing. That is the illusion. When money is created, then claims are made against real goods or services. It is sleight of hand theft by those with privilege ... counterfeiting. Borrowers are not required to pay the thief that stole from him. Savers are the losers because they have not done their due diligence. Savers bought into a fraudulent system ... The Federal Reserve System. The smart savers will convert from fake to real money before the crash.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Ron Paul isn't waiting for a collapse, he's hoping for a TRANSITION before the collapse because I'm sure he knows more than anyone that in the times of great economic distress, it is the nature of the State to grow & it will be likely that a free-system won't necessarily come out of such a collapse
    I agree. It would be wise to follow what Dr. Edwin Vieira Jr. prescribes in "The Purse & The Sword"

    Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, 100% redeemable.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  20. #49

    Default

    Of course, for the freeloaders it would be but what about those who saved & saw their purchasing-power dwindle beacuse of the stupid borrowers & bankers?

    But I guess freeloaders don't care so long as they get to benefit at the expense of the savers
    If savings is based on debt of another is that really savings?

  21. #50

    Default

    if you've given your savings to someone else who spent it, you don't have any savings, just a promise that someone will return what you had (presumably with interest).
    “If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”

    - SAMUEL ADAMS

  22. #51

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xFiFtyOnE View Post
    Yeah wasn't every 6 or 7 years? Supposed to be what the bankruptcy laws are based on or something.
    The 7th years is the sabbath for the land. You know, to stop destroying your ecosystem and let the land rebuild itself. Every 7th sabbath for the land was the Jubilee, which ensures that children do not lose their inheritance (the land returns to the ownership of the family it was sold from) and that they don't get burdened with debt by their fathers too greatly. All debt is temporary, and the price is based on how long it is until the Jubilee.

    Yes. Those goat herders seem to have something that was divinely inspired.

  23. #52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Money can NOT be created out of nothing. That is the illusion.
    Call it "illusion" or whatever you want, it's known as commercial-bank-money but the name is irrelevant

    POINT IS that the borrowers buy REAL goods/services with it, which drives up demand & prices & cause inflation & savers DO lose purchasing-power because of that until that "illusion" is extinguished & moneysupply goes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Borrowers are not required to pay the thief that stole from him.
    The "thief" didn't really steal from the borrower but it's the "thief" AND THE BORROWER that stole from the savers

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Savers are the losers because they have not done their due diligence. Savers bought into a fraudulent system ... The Federal Reserve System. The smart savers will convert from fake to real money before the crash.
    Converting to "real money" does NOT prevent complete loss of purchasing-power, it merely reduces the damage caused to the savers because remember, the borrowers are buying REAL goods/services with that "illusion" so there are LESS goods/services for savers than there otherwise would be, so even those with "real money" ARE losing purchasing-power anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    I agree. It would be wise to follow what Dr. Edwin Vieira Jr. prescribes in "The Purse & The Sword"

    Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, 100% redeemable.
    Sure but if debt around the world is massively pardoned then that's going to destroy so much capital & purchasing-power that future production would pretty come to a standstill, & there would be extreme hardships for everyone, due to irresponsible borrowing by the borrowers, they get free stuff & savers who acted responsibly must also face a downgrade in their living-standards, that's just indirect theft, an tax for being acting responsibly; it could have long-term impact on the credit-markets & savers/lenders will be reluctant to lend & the productive businesses would find it harder to raise capital, & getting loans for their projects, which would the production of goods/services & living-standards of EVERYONE; all of these long-term economic consequences must be kept in mind
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  24. #53

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Call it "illusion" or whatever you want, it's known as commercial-bank-money but the name is irrelevant

    POINT IS that the borrowers buy REAL goods/services with it, which drives up demand & prices & cause inflation & savers DO lose purchasing-power because of that until that "illusion" is extinguished & moneysupply goes back



    The "thief" didn't really steal from the borrower but it's the "thief" AND THE BORROWER that stole from the savers



    Converting to "real money" does NOT prevent complete loss of purchasing-power, it merely reduces the damage caused to the savers because remember, the borrowers are buying REAL goods/services with that "illusion" so there are LESS goods/services for savers than there otherwise would be, so even those with "real money" ARE losing purchasing-power anyway



    Sure but if debt around the world is massively pardoned then that's going to destroy so much capital & purchasing-power that future production would pretty come to a standstill, & there would be extreme hardships for everyone, due to irresponsible borrowing by the borrowers, they get free stuff & savers who acted responsibly must also face a downgrade in their living-standards, that's just indirect theft, an tax for being acting responsibly; it could have long-term impact on the credit-markets & savers/lenders will be reluctant to lend & the productive businesses would find it harder to raise capital, & getting loans for their projects, which would the production of goods/services & living-standards of EVERYONE; all of these long-term economic consequences must be kept in mind
    And this is exactly what Central Banks try to do, and you are making their case for them.

    Continue.
    Ron Paul: He irritates more idiots in fewer words than any American politician ever.

    NO MORE LIARS! Ron Paul 2012

  25. #54

    Default

    Once you understand this: Big Govts Are Pathocracy, Rule by Psychopaths, you'll understand why Worldwide Debt Forgiveness will never happen voluntarily.
    Last edited by DGambler; 04-17-2012 at 10:35 AM.
    “…I believe that at this point in history, the greatest danger to our freedom and way of life comes from the reasonable fear of omniscient State powers kept in check by nothing more than policy documents.”

  26. #55

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    If savings is based on debt of another is that really savings?
    So let's say someone steals all of your money that's alright???

    What money is IRRELEVANT, question is when more of it is created, it's loses purchasing-power & you can buy less & less stuff with it so if you're going to hold government/Fed & banks responsible for the loss in purchasing-power then DEFAULTING BORROWERS are just as much the thieves

    Remember, nobody forced them to go in debt, they VOLUNTARILY CHOSE to enter into a contract, if they don't pay then they've little right to point fingers at government/Fed & banks, because they're just much the thieves & culprit because most of the moneysupply is comprised of "commercial-bank-money" which is created every time somebody borrows from banks & moneysupply is decreased when they repay so if they don't repay & decrease moneysupply they'd increased then they've essentially stolen from savers to the extent of amount unpaid

    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    if you've given your savings to someone else who spent it, you don't have any savings, just a promise that someone will return what you had (presumably with interest).
    You don't have to put your money in a bank to lose purchasing-power, when borrowers borrow that causes inflation & if they default then you'll lose purchasing-power as a saver; they'll have indirectly stolen from you to the extent of amount unpaid
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  27. #56

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WilliamC View Post
    And this is exactly what Central Banks try to do, and you are making their case for them.

    Continue.
    Yes, central-banks steal purchasing-power from the savers SO DO DEFAULTING BORROWERS

    I guess freeloaders & thieves do anything to justify their actions but a free society won't be initiated by freeloaders & thieves who believe that just because A steals from B, it's ok for C & D & everyone to steal from B as well

    Freeloaders & thieves unwilling to take responsibility for their actions will only breed a corrupt society & because there are so of them is the precise reason why the world is so corrupt already
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  28. #57

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Yes, central-banks steal purchasing-power from the savers SO DO DEFAULTING BORROWERS

    I guess freeloaders & thieves do anything to justify their actions but a free society won't be initiated by freeloaders & thieves who believe that just because A steals from B, it's ok for C & D & everyone to steal from B as well

    Freeloaders & thieves unwilling to take responsibility for their actions will only breed a corrupt society & because there are so of them is the precise reason why the world is so corrupt already
    Let me see if I understand you correctly.

    Banker gets the privilege to print money ... counterfeit. He prints money for the borrower. Borrower buys a home and pays the banker back 2.5 times as much as he borrowed. Banker likes this deal so banker prints a lot of money and loans it to a lot of borrowers to buy homes. Since there is so much money floating around for home loans the price of housing increases with borrowers bidding against each other causing people to pay more for the home than they are really worth. The bankers keep printing money, relax their borrower qualification requirements, and give money to any borrower that can sign the papers. They give no documentation loans to whoever wants a home (No Credit Check - No Income Verification - No Money Down). The price of housing skyrockets. Some people qualify for the loan but others just sign and move in. That is what happened to the housing market from 2003 - 2007. The housing bubble inflated.

    Then Wall Street figured out that if they keep buying bundled securities with liar borrowers they will never get paid back. Wall Street quit buying the securities which meant that Country Wide Home Mortgage didn't have money to bring to the closing table. Buyers defaulted on the purchase contract even though they qualified for the loan because CountryWide couldn't cough-up the cash. The bubble burst. Borrowers quit borrowing, builders quit building, real estate sales plummeted, CountryWide was taken over by Bank of America, AIG was a scam, Goldman Sachs, et. al. got the bailout money to save America's bankers. The price of houses plummeted.

    Borrowers lost their jobs when the bankers quit loaning money yet they were expected to keep paying the mortgage on a home worth 1/2 of the purchase price. The borrower's credit rating crashes, he lost his job, home, car, boat, motorcycle, his credit, and in many cases his family.

    And the borrower is the bad guy? Keep in mind that these borrowers went to government indoctrination school.
    Last edited by Travlyr; 04-17-2012 at 01:43 PM.

  29. #58

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Yes, central-banks steal purchasing-power from the savers SO DO DEFAULTING BORROWERS

    I guess freeloaders & thieves do anything to justify their actions but a free society won't be initiated by freeloaders & thieves who believe that just because A steals from B, it's ok for C & D & everyone to steal from B as well

    Freeloaders & thieves unwilling to take responsibility for their actions will only breed a corrupt society & because there are so of them is the precise reason why the world is so corrupt already
    Bolded is incorrect. It increases savers purchasing power because currency becomes more scarce. It DOES, however, reduce the value of the market (say, housing) that has been defaulted upon as supply is dumped onto the market.

    Case and point: What happened in 2008? Mass default on homes...what happened? Housing valuations dropped a stunning amount...and deflation took over - wages and savings went UP in value (albeit for a short time until TARP, QE etc).
    Last edited by Seraphim; 04-17-2012 at 01:44 PM.

  30. #59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Or Nothing II View Post
    Yes, central-banks steal purchasing-power from the savers SO DO DEFAULTING BORROWERS

    I guess freeloaders & thieves do anything to justify their actions but a free society won't be initiated by freeloaders & thieves who believe that just because A steals from B, it's ok for C & D & everyone to steal from B as well

    Freeloaders & thieves unwilling to take responsibility for their actions will only breed a corrupt society & because there are so of them is the precise reason why the world is so corrupt already
    Yes, please continue to tell us all how arresting the corrupt bankers and politicians who steal from everyone else through their control of the money supply deserve to be left alone with their ill-gotten gains while everyone else who is stolen from much never once think they have any recourse.

    It is the establishment you are arguing for, so make it good. Heaven forbid that the status quo should ever change and the fraudulent nature of the entire system be abolished.

    You are doing as good a job as possible, given the lies your arguments are based upon.

    People create money by borrowing being the main one, when any educated Ron Paul supporter knows that it is the Federal Reserve Bank that creates money, not the people who are forced by government law to use the FRN's.
    Last edited by WilliamC; 04-17-2012 at 03:30 PM.
    Ron Paul: He irritates more idiots in fewer words than any American politician ever.

    NO MORE LIARS! Ron Paul 2012

  31. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Banker gets the privilege to print money ... counterfeit.
    You use the term "banker" too randomly, what do you mean by "banker" exactly? Fed & banks are NOT the same thing, they are different entities with different powers!

    It's the Fed that PRINTS money, well, actually Treasury does but whatever; NOT the banks

    Commercial-banks' ability to create money (or "illusion" or whatever) is limited by how much borrowers borrow, if nobody borrows then commercial-banks can't create any new money or "illusion" or whatever you want to call it
    please go through this post - http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4361828

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Borrower buys a home
    Why does the borrower borrow? He does it VOLUNTARILY, nobody forced him to do it & mutual-contracts are the basis of any free society you'll ever envision so if you ever wish to see a free society then it will only come about when most people are willing to take responsibility for one's own actions

    What's wrong with LIVING WITHIN ONE'S MEANS? And if one does borrow VOLUNTARILY then isn't it one's responsibility to honor one's contract?

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    pays the banker back 2.5 times as much as he borrowed.
    Where did that number come from??
    Bubbles are fueled by commercial-bank-money ("illusion" or whatever) so borrowers themselves were responsible for the rise in prices! Again, did anyone force them? NO, they entered the contract VOLUNTARILY

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Banker likes this deal so banker prints a lot of money and loans it to a lot of borrowers to buy homes. Since there is so much money floating around for home loans the price of housing increases with borrowers bidding against each other causing people to pay more for the home than they are really worth.
    Again, why did they borrow so irresponsibly? Blame should go to EVERYONE involved - government/Fed, banks & DEFAULTING borrowers
    If someone lives within one's means then that person has every right to point fingers at perpetrators BUT anyone who's not repaid their loans have consumed more from the economy than they've given back aka they've stolen from savers

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    The bankers keep printing money, relax their borrower qualification requirements, and give money to any borrower that can sign the papers. They give no documentation loans to whoever wants a home (No Credit Check - No Income Verification - No Money Down) The price of housing skyrockets. Some people qualify for the loan but others just sign and move in. That is what happened to the housing market from 2003 - 2007. The housing bubble inflated.
    Seriously, have you ever heard Ron or any other knowledgeable person talk about the housing crisis in detail???
    Government "regulations" banks to make bad loans with Community Reinvestment Act & many other "regulations" contributed to that & that's why you don't see Ron ranting on & on about "evil bankers, evil bankers", he talks SPECIFICALLY about FED & GOVERNMENT!

    When you see a WHOLE INDUSTRY making bad decisions, you can bet that there's some kind of government intervention that's fueling it; because the market is self-regulating (I hope you'll at least agree on that), SOME businesses may make bad decisions, they go out of business, other make good decisions & they go on

    And guess, many smaller banks went bankrupt & nobody bailed them, it was mostly bigger ones that were bailed out & that's how it pans out every time, so all the conspiracy theorists acting like "all banks were in it together" are ridiculously uninformed about the markets & nature of self-interest! It's nothing more than excessive sensationalization!



    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Then Wall Street figured out that if they keep buying bundled securities with liar borrowers they will never get paid back.
    The purpose of derivative-instruments is to hedge risks, governments had gotten them to make bad loans & they knew it was a ticking bomb so they tried to do what they could & tried to bundle good loans with bad ones but there were simply too many & it was going to explode sooner or later

    Again, the black guy keeps asking Ron about derivatives & expects Ron to criticize derivatives BUT Ron keeps steering the topic back to FED & GOVERNMENT because he understands where the problem is!



    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Bank of America, AIG was a scam, Goldman Sachs, et. al. got the bailout money to save America's bankers. The price of houses plummeted.
    When did I say bailouts were justified??? Of course, they should NOT have been bailed out because it's again the question of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS
    SIMILARLY, borrowers should NOT get the "bailout" either, they should take responsibility for THEIR actions!

    Again, you just can't have a free society unless people learn to take responsibility for their OWN actions, which they VOLUNTARILY engaged in, that's the basis of a free society!
    If you mass-pardon the loans then it will only set a precedent for more such socialist measures in the future, it will destroy the credit-markets, productivity & living-standards

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Borrowers lost their jobs when the bankers quit loaning money yet they were expected to keep paying the mortgage on a home worth 1/2 of the purchase price. The borrower's credit rating crashes, he lost his job, home, car, boat, motorcycle, his credit, and in many cases his family.
    Again, did anyone FORCE them to get loans? NO! If they engage in a VOLUNTARY contract then they must fulfill it! Why didn't they LIVE WITHIN THEIR MEANS

    Do you realize that SAVERS are NET-PRODUCERS & BORROWERS are NET-CONSUMERS (until they repay) in an economy so when someone buys something on loan, they're doing it indirectly at the expense of SAVERS

    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    And the borrower is the bad guy? Keep in mind that these borrowers went to government indoctrination school.
    Ignorance doesn't absolve one of one's own VOLUNTARY actions!

    If we go on a gold-standard or something, there may be a demand from those who didn't wake up in time to buy gold, who may say they had a "late start" so everyone's gold should be nationalized so that everyone had a "fresh start"
    Would you be ok with such a proposition??? Would you give up your gold just because others were ignorant earlier & you bought it ahead of time???

    Like someone said earlier, it's astonishing that we're even discussing this on f'cking RONPAULFORUMS where people are supposed to be for VOLUNTARY ACTION & PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

    It seems as every day passes by, more & more OWSers, socialists/communists, geo-communists & all kind of anti-market, pro-government-intervetion, anti-voluntaryist people are flooding this forum!
    Last edited by Paul Or Nothing II; 04-18-2012 at 11:32 AM.
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast




« Previous Thread | Next Thread »


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •