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Thread: The Police State Vs. Occupy Wall Street: This Is Not Going To End Well For Any Of Us

  1. #1

    Default The Police State Vs. Occupy Wall Street: This Is Not Going To End Well For Any Of Us

    The Police State Vs. Occupy Wall Street: This Is Not Going To End Well For Any Of Us

    The Economic Collapse
    Thursday, November 17, 2011

    Right now, we are watching the early rounds of a heavyweight fight between two extremely determined opponents. Occupy Wall Street has no plans of losing this fight and neither do law enforcement authorities. Perhaps those running the show actually believed that raiding Zuccotti Park and more than a dozen other “Occupy camps” around the nation would end these protests, but that is just not going to happen.

    Whatever your opinion of Occupy Wall Street is, everyone should be able to agree that this is one dedicated bunch. They are absolutely obsessed with their cause and in response to the recent raid on Zuccotti Park organizers are calling for “a national day of direct action” on Thursday. But if Occupy Wall Street protesters want to take things to “the next level”, they should not underestimate the resolve of the police state. Over the past decade, the homeland security apparatus of the federal government has been slowly but surely turning this country into a “Big Brother” police state. Today, our law enforcement authorities are obsessed with watching us, listening to us, tracking us, recording us, and gathering information on all of us. We are constantly reminded that we live in a prison grid (just think about what they do to you before you are allowed on an airplane) and they are not about to put up with anyone challenging their authority or their control. Have you even known parents that constantly feel the need to prove that they are “the boss” of their children? Well, that is essentially what the homeland security apparatus in this country has become. All over the United States, law enforcement personnel are taught that every American is a potential terrorist and they are actually trained to “act tough”, to bark orders at us and to not let anyone question their authority. If Occupy Wall Street believes that it can get the police state to “back down”, they are sorely mistaken. Hopefully everyone will cool off a bit as the temperatures go down this winter. But if we do see a “cooling off”, it probably will not last for long. As the U.S. economy continues to get worse, these kinds of protests are going to keep growing and they will become even more intense. Eventually, mass civil unrest will cause the streets of many of our major cities to closely resemble war zones. When it is all said and done, this is not going to end well for any of us.

    The stunning police raid of Zuccotti Park at 1 AM on Tuesday morning made headlines around the world. Protesters were hauled off, tents were cut down and garbage trucks hauled off the personal possessions of those that had been encamped there. It was swift and it was brutal.

    But it was just another in a long line of raids that we have seen over the past couple of weeks. Occupy camps in Portland, Oakland, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, Atlanta and several other cities have also been raided.

    There is an increasing body of evidence that these raids have been coordinated. For example, Oakland Mayor Jean Quan recently made the following statement during a recent interview about the Occupy movement….

    I was recently on a conference call with 18 cities across the country who had the same situation

    Does anyone want to guess who was running that conference call?

    Heidi Bogosian, the executive director of the National Lawyers Guild, is convinced that the recent raids were coordinated at the federal level….

    “We definitely feel, especially in a movement like this that has arisen so quickly in a number of cities, that there will be a coordinated national effort to try and shut it down”

    Someone probably thought that cracking a few skulls and cutting up a few tents would probably make the hippies go away.

    Yes, that might have worked in 1991.

    But this is 2011. Whether you agree with Occupy Wall Street or not, one thing that should be clear to all of us is that these boys and girls are deadly serious.

    In response to the recent raids, organizers have declared “a national day of direct action” on Thursday.

    One of the “major actions” being planned is a “shut down” of Wall Street.

    Of course that will not happen because thousands of law enforcement personnel will be dispatched to protect Wall Street if necessary.

    But what does seem clear is that Occupy Wall Street seems determined to take things to the next level.

    In this video, a wild-eyed protester can be seen making the following statement….

    “On the 17th, we gonna burn this city to the ************* ground.”

    Later on in the video, the same protester makes an even more inflammatory statement….

    “No more talking. They’ve got guns, we’ve got bottles. They’ve got bricks, we’ve got rocks…in a few days you’re going to see what a Molotov cocktail can do to Macy’s.”

    That is a very frightening statement.

    As I noted the other day, one recent survey found that 31 percent of all Occupy Wall Street protesters “would support violence to advance their agenda”.

    Let us hope that cooler heads prevail and that we don’t see outbreaks of violence.

    If we do see violence in the coming days, it will just give law enforcement authorities an excuse to crack down even harder.

    Up to this point, local law enforcement authorities have been advised to seek “legal reasons” for evicting Occupy protesters.

    Since just about everything is illegal in America today, that has not been too difficult. So far “zoning laws”, “curfew rules” and regulations that target homeless people have been used as justifications to evict Occupy protesters.

    In New York City, Mayor Bloomberg has said that protesters can gather in Zuccotti Park, but that “the rules” do not allow them to have tents, sleeping bags or any sort of heavy equipment.

    So will the protesters go along with this, or will this turn into a prolonged struggle over Zuccotti Park?

    It is hard to say, but one thing is for sure – police all over the nation have already shown that they are prepared to use brutal force against these protesters in order to get their way.

    We have seen tear gas used, we have seen pepper spray cannons used, we have seen rubber bullets used and we have seen flash-bang stun grenades used.

    And they are just warming up. When it comes to protecting “national security”, there is a vast array of technologies and weapons that law enforcement authorities have at their disposal.

    Many Americans are cheering the crackdown on these protesters, but we all should remember that real people are getting seriously injured. For example, just check out this photo of 84-year-old Dorli Rainey after pepper spray was blasted directly into her face.

    Rainey and several other Occupy Seattle protesters are still in the hospital.

    Ready for another example?

    You can see video of a female Occupy Cal protester being brutally yanked by her hair right here.

    How would you feel if that was you?

    We all need to realize that these confrontations are not just a bunch of “fun and games”.

    A lot of people have been sent to the hospital already, and this is just the beginning.

    One of the key things that the American people will need to understand is that they don’t have to pick sides.

    When law enforcement authorities commit atrocities, we should denounce them.

    When Occupy Wall Street protesters commit acts of violence or vandalism, we should denounce them.

    It would be nice if all Occupy Wall Street protests would be 100% non-violent.

    It would be nice if the police would be reasonable and would carry out their duties with gentleness and respect.

    But sadly, those things are probably not going to happen.

    The civil unrest we are seeing now is only the beginning.

    Things are going to get a lot worse.

    If things keep getting escalated to “the next level”, eventually we will see martial law imposed in some of our largest cities.

    Don’t think that it can’t happen.

    The United States is increasingly becoming a very unstable place.

    As America comes apart at the seams, this is not going to end well for any of us.


    http://www.infowars.com/the-police-s...for-any-of-us/
    I am the spoon.



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  3. #2

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    Alex Jones on Homeland Security infiltrating OWS

    RT
    Thursday, November 17, 2011

    The Occupy Wall Street movement has been under fire in the past week. Police in riot gear have raided camps from coast to coast.

    And again videos and photos have surfaced of the police brutality that has been taking place towards the non-violent protester.

    Some reports say the Department of Homeland Security is spying on the occupiers and have been sending the homeless and criminals to demonize the movement. Alex Jones, radio host of The Alex Jones Show, helps us understand who is really behind the crackdowns.






    http://www.infowars.com/alex-jones-o...iltrating-ows/
    I am the spoon.

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    You all know my loyalties, and where I stand with Occupy Wall Street. We are very, very determined. I wish I had more time and effort to advance the ideas and defend/support the positions on here.

    Do not listen to the media about what this stands for... do not listen to the talking heads, go visit these people in person, and ask them your questions, and engage with them.


    The actions ongoing right now in New York are exactly what we have all described what a Police State would start to look like...
    The police are blocking the sidewalk, requesting corporate/business ID cards to access public roadways and transportation. They are arresting protesters for just being there.

    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18573661

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law

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    This is just the beginning. There is another MAJOR economic crash just around the corner. With people in the street already, the bonfire is laid and the tinder is in place. Hold on to your hats, ladies and gentlemen.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

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    wow. This is crazy. I don't know if this is true but this morning I was watching fox & friends at work and someone on tv said soon they were going to begin occupying the subway system and the stock exchange. This could get bad fast.

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    OWS as a whole, is going to destroy the global economy, and they don't even care. For being a movement that cares about all individuals, they sure don't care about the possible repercussions.

    They just want to "spread democracy," yet many don't even know what that means. Their core message and beliefs are good, but the many absurdities they shout are detrimental to us all. Ron Paul and his supporters offer them what they want, and they're to wrapped up in their pride to notice it.
    "For if you [the rulers] suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves [and outlaws] and then punish them."
    -Sir Thomas More (1478-1535), Utopia, Book 1

    *Admirer, of Philosophy.*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosophy_of_Politics View Post
    OWS as a whole, is going to destroy the global economy, and they don't even care..
    I hope so. The global economy is a lie as it is anyway. What do you think re-introducing the gold standard would do? It'd destroy the world economy as the largest currency contraction in history took place. It could quite easily lead to foreign nations dumping their dollar reserve holdings as they become worthless as the dollar assume sits real worth and not its fiat worth. Personal incomes would drop like a rock from the Eiffel Tower as the less money in the system meant less could be paid out.

    But you know what? it'd be worth it. After the correction took place, prices would drop and the national and world economy would get back on a sure footing as the dollar came to a stable legitimate worth. In the long run you and your children would have less dollar bills, but each bill would be worth much more and having more buying power. The government couldn't afford international illegal wars and expansive policing powers. They would literally not have enough money. You would be freer. Everyone would be better off.

    So I say let it come. Destroy the world economy. It has to happen. We just have to be sure we are in a place to pick up the pieces.
    Last edited by PierzStyx; 11-17-2011 at 09:17 PM.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

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    When are you folks going to realize that it's a bad idea for us to identify with these people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rael View Post
    When are you folks going to realize that it's a bad idea for us to identify with these people?
    It's the mob mentality. People are seduced by this big group and feeling like they're apart of something large that they'll support them no matter what they're up to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philosophy_of_Politics View Post
    OWS as a whole, is going to destroy the global economy,
    Bull$#@!.
    The Global Economy is already being destroyed. By the very bankers that created it.

    These people are just pissed at that reality.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...8-Some-History

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    Damn! I wish this thing had just died. Why does it have to turn out like this? Why do people have to be "loyal" to this movement? Why continue this silly plea to "meet them in person" when we already know what we're going to get, most likely?

    Sure, go talk to someone one-on-one if you really want to, but stay the hell out of the protest! This is madness.
    I'm an adventurer, writer and bitcoin market analyst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Bull$#@!.
    The Global Economy is already being destroyed. By the very bankers that created it.

    These people are just pissed at that reality.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...8-Some-History
    What do you mean, "these people?" Whose a collectivist?

    Uh huh. I think I've made my point.
    I'm an adventurer, writer and bitcoin market analyst.

    Buy my book for $11.49 (reduced):

    Website: http://www.grandtstories.com/

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    Yes, the "police state". If I can't bring hundreds of my friends and occupy a private park for free for months while taking dumps on police cars and continuosly wake people up at night with my bongos while trashing the inside of local business's then indeed America is dead.
    "Look, the American people have chosen to have a fiat money standard because they want a welfare state. You cannot have a gold standard and a welfare state at the same time. You have to make the choice. We have made a decision as a society that we’ll be dealing with the welfare state." -Alan Greenspan

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    What do you mean, "these people?" Whose a collectivist?

    Uh huh. I think I've made my point.
    You think people are out protesting because they are happy?
    These people are all pissed,, for many reasons. Many have NO CLUE why or how to fix it.

    A few actually do have a clue. Others are trying to prevent that message from being heard or addressed.

    Which one are you?
    Have you watched those Videos?
    Last edited by pcosmar; 11-17-2011 at 08:58 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

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    Here is another good one to watch.

    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    What do you mean, "these people?" Whose a collectivist?

    Uh huh. I think I've made my point.

    Don't be an ass. Just because rights come to individuals doesn't mean collective statements don't have worth either. In fact living in anything but an anarchist utopia means collectivist thought has to be applicable on some level. After all a government of any kind, including the original constitutional one envisioned by the Founders and Championed by Ron Paul, is a collectivist undertaking as it is founded by "WE THE PEOPLE" not "You The Person." Any powers the government has results from a collectivist agreement by the governed to delegate those powers to said government. So guess what jack-off? You live in America and want constitutional guarantees that protect your freedoms? Then you're a collectivist too.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbill27 View Post
    Yes, the "police state". If I can't bring hundreds of my friends and occupy a private park for free for months while taking dumps on police cars and continuously wake people up at night with my bongos while trashing the inside of local business's then indeed America is dead.
    Actually Zuccotti Park is a "privately-owned public space". NYC essentially gave the builders "incentives" (read real estate deals and tax breaks) to use their funds to build public areas. As a public area, it doesn't fall under private property rights protections even though it is owned privately, since all public land laws are applicable to it. This includes the right to gather and protest.

    America doesn't suffer by protecting the rights of protestors, even when protesting in an unsightly way for stupid causes. But America does suffer when armed force is used to abridge those rights. It sets a precedent not just for armed force to break up the less stupid protests, but the more important ones as well.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

    "A man chooses. A slave obeys."-Andrew Ryan

    "There are three things the parasite hates: free markets, free will, and free men."-Andrew Ryan

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    ''let it not be said we did nothing''

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    It is no sense arguing with these anti-OWS people on here. They are to caught up in their own pride and sense of self worth than to have sympathy for the uninformed, uneducated and unrepresented masses. Ron Paul supports them, that is all that matters at this point. I say, onward with the destruction, it's been a long time comin'....
    Last edited by ryanmkeisling; 11-17-2011 at 09:51 PM.
    Agriculture is our wisest pursuit, because it will in the end contribute most to real wealth, good morals, and happiness.
    -Thomas Jefferson

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    It's a set up. This is going to be their excuse for Martial law. That is why the "establishment" has supported OWS all along.

    They picked Nov 17 to up the violence because it's a communist "holiday" :
    Two Germans, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels wrote the Communist Manifesto in 1848. Although it did not receive much acclaim in Germany, a young man named Vladimir Ilyich Lenin embraced the Russian translation in 1882. Based on his study of the Manifesto, Lenin formed the Marxist Bolshevik Party in 1903. His commitment to the Marxist theory and his ideological zeal enabled him to lead the revolution of Russia on November 17, 1917.
    Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.
    ~ George Washington

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    I cannot support violence. I did support the OWS protests, until they got violent.

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    I believe the "peace" was a facade to try to attract people into the movement and get good citizens behind them.
    When we stop and look at the people, associations, groups, and organizations that have backed this movement from the beginning... it kinda gives one the willies.

    The very first essential for success is a perpetually constant and regular employment of violence.
    Adolf Hitler

    Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.
    Benito Mussolini

    Let us have a dagger between our teeth, a bomb in our hands, and an infinite scorn in our hearts.
    Benito Mussolini

    The keystone of the Fascist doctrine is its conception of the State, of its essence, its functions, and its aims. For Fascism the State is absolute, individuals and groups relative.
    Benito Mussolini

    Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem.
    Joseph Stalin

    It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.
    Joseph Stalin

    One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.
    Joseph Stalin

    We don't let them have ideas. Why would we let them have guns?
    Joseph Stalin

    The Liberal State is a mask behind which there is no face; it is a scaffolding behind which there is no building.
    Benito Mussolini

    The truth is that men are tired of liberty.
    Benito Mussolini

    If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.
    Adolf Hitler

    It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.
    Adolf Hitler

    Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
    Adolf Hitler

    The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.
    Adolf Hitler

    The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force.
    Adolf Hitler

    The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.
    Adolf Hitler

    Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way round, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.
    Adolf Hitler

    The victor will never be asked if he told the truth.
    Adolf Hitler

    Democracy is the road to socialism.
    Karl Marx
    Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.
    ~ George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    I believe the "peace" was a facade to try to attract people into the movement and get good citizens behind them.
    Actually,, you have that backwards.
    It was entirely peaceful till attacked BY POLICE.

    As far as the beginnings and and original purpose.
    http://ampedstatus.org/network/about/

    It’s time to mobilize and aggressively move on common sense political reforms.

    As long as the economy and government are rigged by the top economic 0.1%, we will all lose.


    The economic top one-tenth of one percent of the population has launched an economic war against us. They have consolidated tens of trillions of dollars. We now have the highest and most severe inequality of wealth in history. While there are a record number of people currently living paycheck to paycheck, in debt, unemployed, underemployed, without healthcare, on food stamps and in poverty; as our society is breaking down, global bankers have taken our tax dollars and given themselves all-time record-breaking bonuses. The same people who destroyed our economy have been given trillions of dollars in national wealth.

    As a broad-based network representing people across the political spectrum, we are working together to reach common ground and fight for pivotal political reforms. Members of this social network are part a decentralized movement that has two goals:

    1) End the System of Political Bribery (campaign finance, lobbying, revolving door)
    2) Break Up the “Too Big To Fail” Banks and the Federal Reserve

    These are the two key issues that we must urgently rally around and support. Unless we organize and take decisive action, we will all suffer the consequences of our collective inaction. Any politician who does not support these issues must be voted out of office and replaced by people who will aggressively fight on these fronts.
    The other influences that you mention are a part of the Co-Opting of the movement.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmkeisling View Post
    It is no sense arguing with these anti-OWS people on here. They are to caught up in their own pride and sense of self worth than to have sympathy for the uninformed, uneducated and unrepresented masses. Ron Paul supports them, that is all that matters at this point. I say, onward with the destruction, it's been a long time comin'....
    I'm personally anti-OWS because of all the people who are promoting it and because of the words and actions of the people out there. The minority of well-minded people out there are going to be purged from the movement as it escalates. But go ahead and align yourself with OWS and stop some people trying to drive on roads and stop legitimate commerce, that will really help turn our country around

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    Quote Originally Posted by John F Kennedy III View Post
    Alex Jones on Homeland Security infiltrating OWS

    RT
    Thursday, November 17, 2011

    The Occupy Wall Street movement has been under fire in the past week. Police in riot gear have raided camps from coast to coast.

    And again videos and photos have surfaced of the police brutality that has been taking place towards the non-violent protester.
    Alex Jones sympathizing with OWS people who he demonizes as communists and globalists?

    Why does the DHS need to "infiltrate" OWS if it was "them" and "their own" to begin with?

    Why do the police need to brutalize the people they allegedly work with? Do the people who are brutalized know their role on the stage?
    Last edited by Becker; 11-18-2011 at 02:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    Alex Jones sympathizing with OWS people who he demonizes as communists and globalists?

    Why does the DHS need to "infiltrate" OWS if it was "them" and "their own" to begin with?

    Why do the police need to brutalize the people they allegedly work with? Do the people who are brutalized know they're role on the stage?
    It's "their" FFS, ARGGHHH! "They're" means "they are". Get it right!
    I'm an adventurer, writer and bitcoin market analyst.

    Buy my book for $11.49 (reduced):

    Website: http://www.grandtstories.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    Alex Jones sympathizing with OWS people who he demonizes as communists and globalists?
    I've listened to his show and he's talked of the legitimacy of their concern with the fraudulent system repeatedly. He has also talked about his desire to bring the sincere and the legitimate Tea Party people together to fight the true source of the problem which is the Federal Reserve and the Federal Government. The communist globalist solutions (which seem to be espoused by the majority of the people at these Occupy protests) are what he has denounced.

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    Originally Posted by Philosophy_of_Politics
    OWS as a whole, is going to destroy the global economy, and they don't even care..
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    I hope so.
    Whoa there...

    The global economy is a lie as it is anyway.
    On the whole I would call this close enough to truth on one hand. On the other, however, the lives of billions of people depend on that lie. To hope for the sudden dissolution of this unspeakably corrupt and rigged system of economic empire is to hope for the deaths of perhaps as many has half of those people, perhaps even more. You cannot just tear down this house of cards. It must be taken down piecemeal and at a rate such that the market is sustained so that people do not starve, freeze, and die of disease. Seriously, you and all who think like you had better get clued on this because your families and friends stand to be among those meeting their makers in exquisitely unpleasant ways if this system comes down in a flash-cut.

    I fully agree with you that the lie must be put to rest, but in a controlled fashion and not at the velocity that only violent revolution and natural catastrophe provide.

    It seems fairly clear that the Occupy-x factions nationwide and perhaps even worldwide are pretty determined to be heard and satisfied. If this indeed be the case, then people such as ourselves should be out there in an attempt to help our fellows, misguided as they may be in many ways, to get their heads straight insofar as what exactly it is that we should be working toward. I have no idea how this will end, whether with a whimper or with a horrific bang. I do not know whether this poses any real threat to the lie that is our current system. What I do know is that this presents a rare opportunity to at least make the effort to help shape the thoughts and opinions of what could prove to be a very large number of people and to help them become aware of and to focus upon not only what really needs attention in terms of what we should be doing, but also what we should be assiduously avoiding.

    Hoping for collapse? I strongly recommend you think about that very carefully and re-task those hopes to something that is not likely to end up with yourself either dead or dying.

    What do you think re-introducing the gold standard would do?
    It depends largely on how it would be reintroduced. But yes, even so someone would be taking it in the neck in some way and degree. It is a sore corner into which the money-masters have painted us all. This table could, however, be turned on them with enough determination, support, and a smart strategy backed with an incredibly well contrived plan of action. I am not very optimistic that this has much chance of occurring.

    But you know what? it'd be worth it. After the correction took place, prices would drop and the national and world economy would get back on a sure footing as the dollar came to a stable legitimate worth.
    After the correction, I would give your chances of being alive not much better than 50%.

    In the long run you and your children would have less dollar bills, but each bill would be worth much more and having more buying power.
    This may or may not prove the case because the truth will be predicated on how the monetary system were implemented and administered in the wake of such a correction, assuming those of us left were not living in the fifth century. But even if we assume the best happens, which is not really so very likely given a cursory peek at the human record on such matters, what you claim is still irrelevant because the key question upon which "wealth" turns is purchasing power. If I have 1/10 as many dollars but my dollars are worth 10 times more, my net position is not improved and may well be actually worse, depending on how pricing follows the changes in currency. But in the best scenario, I am as wealthy after as I was before. The ONLY way I improve my lot, all else equal (e.g. pricing is perfectly synced with the monetary correction), is if my purchasing power increases. For example, if I have 1/10 as many dollars but each is worth, say, 11 times as much, then I have experienced a ten percent gain in purchasing power in general terms.

    But that is not necessarily good news because in that case presumably the same may be said for everyone else. If purchasing rises by ten percent, then prices will rise as demand outstrips supply. The factor that stands to be our salvation here is if spending does NOT rise in proportion to the nominal rise in wealth that such a correction represents. That is, the nominal rise in wealth will strengthen and stabilize the broader economy if people take that incremental rise in wealth and SAVE IT.

    The true reason that our fiat currency system has failed is PRECISELY because we SPEND all the money we "print". There is NOTHING wrong with fiat money per sé. The problems arise from mismanagement of such money systems, which reduces them to MERE CURRENCY SYSTEMS. Were the dollar competently and honestly administered, it would be an utterly fabulous store of wealth, at least under nominal living conditions (asteroid doesn't strike earth and so forth). This is what people do not understand about money, even many of those in these forums. The purpose of money is to act as a wealth sink. Its precise form, e.g. coin and paper, are nothing more than mediums of exchange. So long as the amount of that medium accurately reflects the real value it is supposed to represent from one day to another, used toilet paper could serve the purpose. The reason gold has been successful is that it CANNOT BE COUNTERFEITED save by the most difficult means (e.g. tungsten salting). The reason the fiat dollar has been a failure in terms of the stated role of money as a store of value is that the ratio of money units (dollars) to the units of real value represented keeps climbing and this is due almost entirely to the endless pyramiding of newly borrowed funds that has been used to finance our unwillingness to do without. Government funds a billion different programs that produce zero or less return, not to mention endless warring which represents the ultimate example of the glazier's fallacy. Banks have borrowed endlessly to provide, propagate, and perpetuate economically unsound financial instruments (e.g. most derivatives, as well as the various "bubbles") via the conduits of the various investing operations. They provide the means to investment companies to in turn provide to end customers every manner of snake oil and other stupidity that springs forth in the wakes of market fits of spontaneous and unbridled avarice.

    It is not, therefore, the fiat money system per sé, that causes the problems we see, but rather our corruption as people and as nations. Rome had a stable gold standard as was also found in Byzantium, yet those systems came crashing down in the end. Was it because gold was not a good standard? No. It was due SOLELY to human corruption that lead to the debasement of the monies until they became nothing more than hollow currencies. The ONLY difference between material standards (e.g. gold) and pure fiat monies is that the latter makes it easier to debase the store of value because there is no material manipulation required, not even a printing press today, but only a ledger entry. THAT is the root of the money problem and NOT the standard on which a given money is based. Any monetary system can be corrupted, as has been demonstrated apodictically on innumerable occasions throughout the history of human economic affairs. End corrupt and inept management and ANY money system will serve well.

    The government couldn't afford international illegal wars and expansive policing powers.
    Sure they could. They would just have to work a lot harder for them. In time, however, you would perhaps prove correct because debasement is readily detected where an open and accessible material standard is used, in which case the only remaining question would be whether people would tolerate the perfidy. Sadly, the human record there provides nothing much in the way of good promise for future possibilities. I would suggest, however, that such a standard would be completely closed to the public. So here we see that a gold standard is not enough to better guarantee honest money. That money must of necessity be CONVERTIBLE ON DEMAND. It is the issue of convertibility that is is a necessary element in sound money based on precious metals. Without it, there is nothing to prevent bad things from going on behind closed doors.

    They would literally not have enough money. You would be freer. Everyone would be better off.
    In the most practical terms, this is probably true, but I would not get overly confident.

    So I say let it come. Destroy the world economy. It has to happen. We just have to be sure we are in a place to pick up the pieces.
    Verily and forsooth do you need to dispense with this opinion, for it is based in sheer and utter madness.
    Last edited by osan; 11-18-2011 at 02:19 AM.
    "And thus I clothe my naked villany with old odd ends, stolen out of holy writ; and seem a saint when most I play a devil." -Shakespeare

    “We know that concessions of privileges are but titles of servitude.”

    "Giving alms to common beggars is naturally praised; because it seems
    to carry relief to the distressed and indigent: but when we observe the encouragement thence arising to idleness and debauchery, we regard that species of charity rather as a weakness than a virtue." -Hume

  30. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sgt150 View Post
    It's the mob mentality. People are seduced by this big group and feeling like they're apart of something large that they'll support them no matter what they're up to.
    Do not paint with too broad a brush as we bear in mind that others could say the same about those in support of Ron Paul. Keep your head cool, deliberate, and patient. Take all caution and care in the formulation of not only your opinions but in how you choose to express them. The right opinion is lost if the means of expression are poorly constructed.

    I admonish all of you in this way, including myself. As our contemporary world dances on the edge of an ever sharper razor, proper communication becomes ever more critical. At no time in human history has clear, complete, and accurate communication been more frighteningly essential than we find today.

    I have deeply contemplated the hazards of trying to communicate in a world that doesn't speak, but rather makes mostly indecipherable grunting and whinging noises. The specter of this reality intensifies in its fright value with each passing day. We, the literate and ARTICULATE are perhaps the only hope left to the race. How I hope that this belief is a gross exaggeration, but fear it is not.
    "And thus I clothe my naked villany with old odd ends, stolen out of holy writ; and seem a saint when most I play a devil." -Shakespeare

    “We know that concessions of privileges are but titles of servitude.”

    "Giving alms to common beggars is naturally praised; because it seems
    to carry relief to the distressed and indigent: but when we observe the encouragement thence arising to idleness and debauchery, we regard that species of charity rather as a weakness than a virtue." -Hume

  31. #30

    Default

    It ALL is engineered. Those that participate do not know that they are being guided by forces that they are unaware of. Poor sots. Poor us.
    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,
    and unacknowledged by our laws;
    giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

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