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Thread: Cain challenged us in the debate to read the independent analysis of 9-9-9... Please help!

  1. #1

    Cain challenged us in the debate to read the independent analysis of 9-9-9... Please help!

    I'm not a fan of Cain's 999 plan, but I was curious after the last debate to see his 'independent analysis' that went against the Tax Policy Center's analysis.

    First off, the analysis is done by a private financial services firm with 5 (including the secretary) employees. None of them have a PhD in Economics (not that you can't know what is going on without a PhD, but I would expect serious analysis of a national tax plan to be done by at least one person with a PhD), and only 2 have degrees in anything related to finance.

    But, once again, I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt and read the 'analysis' anyways (FYI--took me a while to figure out that the charts are located seperately from the analysis document for some reason). Both are located on Cain's website, in the header under the 999 plan section. Oh--and there are tons of typos (maybe because they posted the 'draft' copy--as seen in the footer--on their website?)

    I'm no PhD in Economics, but I have taken a decent number of Economics classes, and the analysis just doesn't make sense to me at all. Maybe I'm just a fool--and that's why I'm here. I need someone better than me at Economics to look this over and 'please' tell me that this isn't just a bunch of poorly written financial mumbo-jumbo. If this really is as bad as I think it is, then the media totally needs to be reporting on it!!

    Here are a few example paragraphs that just don't make sense to me.

    From Pg 3 (Last paragraph on the page):


    "In the course of imputing non-business capital income, Commerce reclassifies the purchases of
    homes and the capital of nonprofits from consumption to investment. For our purposes, to
    measure the investment purchases made by businesses, this reclassification must be reversed.
    As Table 1c shows, removing the imputed items and reclassifying investment reduces total
    GDP from $14,396 billion to $12,966 billion, or about 9.8 percent. The biggest change is the
    25 percent reduction in investment from $2,097 billion to $1,576 billion."


    Umm... I can read the words, but I can't understand why they need to reverse this? Is it just to get the answers they want, or is there some logical reason for this that I'm missing?

    From Pg 9 (First paragraph in the comprehensive variant section).

    "Also subject to tax is compensation in the institution sector and the untaxed
    services provided by the financial sector."

    Can anyone describe to me what an 'institution sector' is or includes?

    From Pg 10 (Only paragraph in the economic impacts of broad reform section):


    "Table 11 shows the static and dynamic results of adopting one of the broad-based alternatives
    shown above. In the long run GDP would be nearly $2 trillion larger than the 2008 baseline or
    nearly 15% higher. The private business capital stock would be more than one-third higher.
    Hours worked would be 4.4% higher translating into 6 million more jobs. Not shown is that
    wage rates will be 10% higher. Total federal receipts would be nearly 15% higher. This means
    that rates could be reduced by another 4 percentage points while maintaining a constant level of
    federal revenues."


    I should note that table 11 includes such gems as 'current surplus of government enterprises = -4'... WTF? Oh, and they don't describe anywhere how they come up with the above figures. This is seriously the only paragraph on the economic impacts, and may only be there because the other analysis seems to suggest that Cain needs to have a 13-13-13 plan instead of the much more catchy 9-9-9.

    There are far more problems I have than this, but most just involve being totally confused by the general point they are trying to make. Please read it and see if it makes sense to you!!
    Last edited by ChromiumL; 10-21-2011 at 01:00 AM.



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  3. #2
    bump
    R[∃vo˩]ution

    I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. -Ronald Reagan

  4. #3

  5. #4
    How bizarre is this? Here's the same paper from 1996:

    http://www.ipi.org/ipi/IPIPublicatio...8?OpenDocument

    Did they just copy it?

  6. #5
    OK, this paper has been around since 1996 and was written to argue that a flat tax can be revenue neutral. It's not anything written specifically about Cain's 999 thing. It looks like this guy

    http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-j-...%AE/23/788/232

    just copied it and Cain put it on his website. Glencer looks like an accountant guy with a BA degree from Eastern Michigan U and the rest of this crap is online and correspondence stuff:

    College for Financial Planning, Master of Science: Major in Wealth Management
    - Eastern Michigan University, Bachelor of Business Administration
    - CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ (CFP®)
    - Chartered Retirement Counselor
    - Accredited Wealth Management Advisor
    - Securities registered through LPL Financial
    - Licensed for Life and Health Insurance
    Pretty shady, really.

  7. #6
    Notice how the paper refers to tables and there are no tables in the paper?

    There are tables here:

    http://www.ipi.org/IPI/IPIPublications.nsf/PublicationLookupFullTextPDF/53C5756D77FDA52F862567EA00229B05/$File/taxbase.pdf?OpenElement

    They took that 1996 paper and pulled the tables out of it and slapped it up on Herman's website. Jeez, don't journalists google anything anymore?

  8. #7

  9. #8
    Euh, clearly Mr Cain has surrounded him with economist that are superior in anything they do compared with the RPF folk. Believe me, it's legit. Now let it go already, sheesh.



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  11. #9
    Wow we need to email this to all the networks hopefully someone will pick this up and do more investigateing. This really shows how unprofessional and non serious the cain campaign is.

  12. #10
    Drudge all the links and a small explanation of what we found too!

  13. #11
    WTH? I can't believe anyone is falling for this crap. The "analysis" by Cain's buddies doesn't answer the fundamental question will you John Q citizen have to pay more or less tax under the Cain plan? The analysis from the Tax Policy center is that everyone with incomes under $200,000 will have a tax increase. Is that right or wrong? The Cain analysis doesn't even attempt to answer that question.
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  14. #12
    That's because it isn't a "Cain analysis." It's an old paper written about various flat tax plans.

  15. #13
    Man this is where cain startshis fall I think. He's a joke and were peeling away to the truth with every word he speaks. He's like the fred thompson of last election, a gimick people like but then people realize he's over his head.

  16. #14
    Email all these findings to John Stossell. He seems to be a fairly smart guy and has done some really good investigative reporting in the past. But I agree with OP, someone needs to gather all the info and submit it to whomever you can think of. You email this to 100 different places someone is bound to run with it.

  17. #15
    I sent it to some journos on twitter. And Jack Hunter.

  18. #16
    Isn't this plagiarism then?
    "The woods are lovely, dark, and deep... But I have got promises to keep.. and miles to go before I sleep.." - Robert Frost



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    I sent it to some journos on twitter. And Jack Hunter.
    Great! That's a start. Is there anyone within the campaign that has strong connections with someone whom can investigate this thoroughly and report on it?

  21. #18
    Looks like it to me. Unless they got permission. I found the paper posted here also:

    http://socialsecurityinstitute.com/n...d-based-reform

    It looks like the Fiscal Associates guy was trying to make an internet version of a paper trail. He took the tables out and made them links. Then when they posted it on Cain's site, they used a pdf and put the tables in a separate pdf. I guess they thought no one would ever google it.

  22. #19
    It seems to me that trying to get the Judge on board with this would get the best traction, didn't he blackout his eyes on fb ?
    Remember humans are people too.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    I sent it to some journos on twitter. And Jack Hunter.
    Hey, I found this on another post about abortion on these forums. Its seems this Iowa radio host has been researching Cain on various topics. It appears this guy has a broad listening base.

    From post:
    That evolution was already on display in a column posted Thursday by Iowa radio talk show host Steve Deace, where he ran through his concerns about Cain's positions on the TARP bailout, the Federal Reserve, foreign policy, gay marriage, abortion and gun rights.

    Find how to contact this guy. Give him all the info you guys have and send it.

    Now that I'm thinking about this. Maybe we need to do a search for every state. Search for radio guys that do hard hitting reporting. People that have a solid listening base in their state that may run with a story on Cain and all his issues. These radio guys have loyal listeners and are respected. As long as we have solid evidence on issues we may get some to do some investigative reporting. If we can cover a good portion of the country with local reporting on Cain, we might be able to bring this guy down.

  24. #21
    wow... this thing might have legs. We need to condense this into a palatable format and send it out to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    It looks like the Fiscal Associates guy was trying to make an internet version of a paper trail. He took the tables out and made them links. Then when they posted it on Cain's site, they used a pdf and put the tables in a separate pdf. I guess they thought no one would ever google it.
    Very interesting. You think that Cain and David G (or someone at "Fiscal Associates") are working together? They would have to be, wouldn't they?

    So someone with Fiscal Associates took the paper from 1996, reworked it, and is trying to leave a "paper" trail....so that when Cain puts it on his website, it traces back to a reworked source and not the actual source.

    If so....this might not be the first time Cain has used this tactic.
    Last edited by hillertexas; 10-21-2011 at 09:51 AM.
    R[∃vo˩]ution

    I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. -Ronald Reagan

  25. #22
    I never listen to radio, so I have no idea about those. Any of you who know how to push this or have an idea, just link this thread to people you think can help.

  26. #23

  27. #24
    We should also contact Ron's campaign, so that at the next debate when Cain says he had an independent analysis and it's freely available on his website, Paul can put the dagger in him.

    BTW...at first I thought the OP had just gone to the wrong website (because the document didn't mention 9-9-9 at all). He didn't. That is legitimately the "scoring report" that Cain has on his website. Here's a link to his website's 9-9-9 section. Click on "scoring report" in the upper right and you'll be linked to this document.

    http://www.hermancain.com/999plan
    Last edited by JorgeStevenson; 10-21-2011 at 09:37 AM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    I never listen to radio, so I have no idea about those. Any of you who know how to push this or have an idea, just link this thread to people you think can help.
    I've got a idea. Maybe you can do this since I'm new on board and you seem to have some credibility here on the boards.

    Here's my idea. Can we some how set up a area on these boards for the sole purpose of investigating candidates. What I have in mind is separate folders for various subjects.

    For example: A compiled list of investigative reporters across the country. ( Either in radio, tv, newspapers, etc.) These would be local people in all parts of the country.
    We have plenty of members on this board from every state and many towns. Everyone submits credible contact info for reference if they have it.

    When serious issues are posted about opposing candidates that are credible stories, we can have selected individuals who want to step to the plate, to compile info in a professional manner and have a designated person or persons email or snail mail info to the database of investigative reporters we have compiled from all parts of the country. If we are to create good alliances with these reporters across the nation, they can become our ally on exposing candidates. The lamestream media will not do it and heck maybe in the process we might be able to boost someone's career.

  30. #26
    Getting bites from reporters on this!

  31. #27
    Last edited by hillertexas; 10-21-2011 at 10:34 AM.
    R[∃vo˩]ution

    I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. -Ronald Reagan

  32. #28
    Talking to a reporter from Talking Points Memo right now. They can really push this out.

  33. #29
    I'm trying to spread this virally.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TexMac View Post
    Talking to a reporter from Talking Points Memo right now. They can really push this out.
    TexMac, you non-smart Ron Paul supporting American, you! (<--according to Herman Cain, anyway)

    +rep! AWESOME find!
    a comprehensive website about critical theory and how it's destroying our civilization: https://newdiscourses.com

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