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Thread: How Was Government Funded before 1913 and IRS?

  1. #1

    Default How Was Government Funded before 1913 and IRS?

    I guess I've never really understood how the government was funded before the Fed and IRS was implemented. I haven't had much of a chance to research it. I don't want to make assumptions. Help me out here. Thanks.



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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by marhlfld View Post
    I guess I've never really understood how the government was funded before the Fed and IRS was implemented. I haven't had much of a chance to research it. I don't want to make assumptions. Help me out here. Thanks.
    It was funded with tariffs (taxes on foreign producers who raised their prices), which is a big reason why the North did not want to let the South become independent in 1860s considering the South paid close to 80% of all Federal Taxes, and excise taxes (taxes from the sale of certain goods). The government got a tremendous amount of money from a sales tax on liquor. Before 1913 40% of the government was funded by a tax on booze. The income tax was pushed by prohibitionists who wanted to make up for the revenue that government would lose when liquor was illegal. With an income tax, the prohibitionists could finally right the wrongs of society and implement their grand vision of utopia.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  4. #3

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    tariffs. high, intermediate and low tariffs. period.
    the civil war and the spanish-american war had
    personal income taxes before wilson did in 1913.

  5. #4
    Needs a bigger boat Anti Federalist's Avatar
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    Tariffs, which are the only constitutional form of taxes and one reason why the US became a mighty engine of industry and innovation.

    Lack thereof now is one of the reasons we are becoming a bankrupt, third world, ghetto.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Tariffs, which are the only constitutional form of taxes and one reason why the US became a mighty engine of industry and innovation.

    Lack thereof now is one of the reasons we are becoming a bankrupt, third world, ghetto.
    I agree with your overall sentiment Anti-Federalist, but I must disagree. Tariffs, if I suspend the belief that a form of taxation is necessary, should be the only way the central government collects revenue but tariffs are not the only Constitutional form of taxation. Article One Sections Eight of the Constitution states: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;" Excise taxes are Constitutional as well. Granted, you do call yourself Anti-Federalist so I can say with a great deal of certainty that you support the old fashioned way the central government was funded, through donations .
    Last edited by Gumba of Liberty; 10-16-2011 at 06:02 PM.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  7. #6

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    what kind of life did people live before 1913?

    Did women work? How many cars did each family have?
    What size were their houses? What percentage of income was spent on food, and how many options did they have to eat?
    How much time did women spend on cooking?
    How many children did a family have on average?
    How rights did gay people and black people have in those great days?

    Why didn't the magical "free market" do all this good stuff?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    what kind of life did people live before 1913?

    Did women work? Single Ones How many cars did each family have? They didn't have any iPads either!!! What animals.
    What size were their houses? They varied. What percentage of income was spent on food, and how many options did they have to eat? More and local options.
    How much time did women spend on cooking? More.
    How many children did a family have on average? More.
    How rights did gay people and black people have in those great days? Each person has inalienable natural Rights. Government did a poor job protecting them.

    Why didn't the magical "free market" do all this good stuff?
    The free market isn't a real tangible thing. The free market doesn't do anything by itself. The free market is a way of explaining how freedom works. When I can trade freely with anyone I want there is a free market. Do I deny the Rights of Black individuals when I trade freely? No. Do I stop women from working when I trade freely? No. Do I change the size of persons home when I trade freely? If I make exceptional homes for low prices, yes. Do I enable people to spend less money on food when I trade freely? If I sell them more food for lower prices, yes. Do I enable women to spend less time cooking when I trade freely? If I invent new home appliances, yes. Free trade betters the world. In a free society the only way to better yourself is to serve your fellow man (or woman).
    Last edited by Gumba of Liberty; 10-16-2011 at 06:27 PM.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    How rights did gay people and black people have in those great days?

    Why didn't the magical "free market" do all this good stuff?
    Government didn't fix racism or sexism, it still exists. Brave men and women who saw injustice took action and in some cases risked their life to change Americas culture and beliefs. That is why these groups were able to reclaim their god given rights.

    I think the better question is, how many blacks and gays stood and fought for their rights and succeeded in spite of a magical government who used its monopoly of force to suppress those rights.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    what kind of life did people live before 1913?

    Did women work? How many cars did each family have?
    What size were their houses? What percentage of income was spent on food, and how many options did they have to eat?
    How much time did women spend on cooking?
    How many children did a family have on average?
    How rights did gay people and black people have in those great days?


    Why didn't the magical "free market" do all this good stuff?
    All that stuff was a result of cultural norms that developed over a long period of time. They didn't magically improve. It took a lot of work to overcome these social problems/issues. Just as the free market of ideas allowed men to rid themselves of the perceived "need" for a monarch.

    The free market is not "magical". It is the result of people freely exchanging things. Prior to the concept of individual liberty, laissez faire, and industrial revolution, most humans lived very short, miserable lives. There was no time or incentive to think about lofty concepts of liberty and such, as that was mostly taken up by the daily struggle for survival.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 10-16-2011 at 07:36 PM.
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    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    what kind of life did people live before 1913?

    Did women work? How many cars did each family have?
    What size were their houses? What percentage of income was spent on food, and how many options did they have to eat?
    How much time did women spend on cooking?
    How many children did a family have on average?
    How rights did gay people and black people have in those great days?

    Why didn't the magical "free market" do all this good stuff?
    We are not in a free market--it is the mere illusion of a free market. In a truly free market government would not be involved in it. The regulators would be the people. The only role the government would have in a free market is collecting, Duties, Imposts and Excises from foreigners.
    *Legal Disclaimer: While I am a keen researcher and want nothing more than to help people, I am not a doctor and more importantly, I am not your doctor. Any article I post that contains general information about medical conditions, treatments and remedies is to bring awareness. The information is not advice, and should not be treated as such. You should never delay seeking medical advice, or discontinue any medical treatment because of information in an article I have posted. The only advice I would give is to continue to research further and use discernment with all advice.

  12. #11

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    taxes on alcohol were hugely important; 1/2 of Fed and state budgets. this is why the income tax was needed before they could impose prohibition, and why conservative religious supported the income tax

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    what kind of life did people live before 1913?

    Did women work? How many cars did each family have?
    What size were their houses? What percentage of income was spent on food, and how many options did they have to eat?
    How much time did women spend on cooking?
    How many children did a family have on average?
    How rights did gay people and black people have in those great days?

    Why didn't the magical "free market" do all this good stuff?
    houses were not small; look at those big Victorian homes in the inner cities.
    people had larger families and could support them on 1 income, as few women worked
    it took 5 years to pay off the average mortgage
    far more people could afford private schools; not just Catholic but Lutheran and other churches had day schools.
    Churches took care of orphans, hospitals, old age homes

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    what kind of life did people live before 1913?

    Did women work? How many cars did each family have?
    What size were their houses? What percentage of income was spent on food, and how many options did they have to eat?
    How much time did women spend on cooking?
    How many children did a family have on average?
    How rights did gay people and black people have in those great days?

    Why didn't the magical "free market" do all this good stuff?

    Remember, early on our nation was largely agrarian. My grandparents lived on a farm, with my grandfather supplementing the income with odd jobs such as helping to build a nearby flood-control lake and driving a school bus. My grandmother worked on the farm and one of her "pet projects" was raising turkeys.

    Here are somethings you might like to check out, a timeline of the industrial revolution in america:

    http://www.cottontimes.co.uk/timeline1.html
    http://www.cottontimes.co.uk/timeline2.htm
    "Sorry, guys, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."
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  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    what kind of life did people live before 1913?

    Did women work?


    Pay no attention to the women working in 1890, in fact women never ever worked pre-1913... ever.
    Though women throughout history tired to break free market "no women in the work place" laws they were often caught and promptly burned as witches.




    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    How many cars did each family have?
    The first automobile as we know it today was invented by an evil free market capitalist named Karl Benz in 1879, he only sold them to his rich friends at his country club.

    Look at him all smug driving around in his horse less buggy while others had to walk


    It wasn't until after the 1920's that federal agents finally tracked down Benz's secret auto plant and stole the plans for the good of the American people. Thanks to those brave federal agents no American will have to ride a horse ever again.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    The free market isn't a real tangible thing. The free market doesn't do anything by itself.
    Oh sorry, Conza made me think its some magical system that not only does things, but does things best and right.

    The free market is a way of explaining how freedom works.
    you mean it's a theory or perspective like Marxism and conflict theory?

    When I can trade freely with anyone I want there is a free market.
    But when corporations are not allowed to bribe the government, or when the government refuses to be bribed, what is that called?
    What is it called when corporations establish truces among each other and agree not to compete?


    Do I deny the Rights of Black individuals when I trade freely? No. Do I stop women from working when I trade freely? No.
    Inaction = innocence?

    You might've not actually ACTIVELy caused anybody harm , but nor has the market provided a mechanism (or if it did, it didnt happen) which "solves" the "problems" (I suppose these are not problems to you).

    Do I change the size of persons home when I trade freely? If I make exceptional homes for low prices, yes. Do I enable people to spend less money on food when I trade freely? If I sell them more food for lower prices, yes. Do I enable women to spend less time cooking when I trade freely? If I invent new home appliances, yes. Free trade betters the world. In a free society the only way to better yourself is to serve your fellow man (or woman).

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    Government didn't fix racism or sexism, it still exists.
    It's largely illegal as practice, legal in speech and thought.

    Brave men and women who saw injustice took action and in some cases risked their life to change Americas culture and beliefs.
    In disrespect of the free market/

    That is why these groups were able to reclaim their god given rights.
    Reclaim the rights they said they had but never had until they used violence to get them?

    I think the better question is, how many blacks and gays stood and fought for their rights and succeeded in spite of a magical government who used its monopoly of force to suppress those rights.
    The government used monopoly to prevent civil rights? You don't mean the great government our founding fathers gave us, do you? Or was it perfect until somebody infiltrated them? Was the civil rights movement a return to some founding father's era that was destroyed sometime after 1800?

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post


    Pay no attention to the women working in 1890, in fact women never ever worked pre-1913... ever.
    Though women throughout history tired to break free market "no women in the work place" laws they were often caught and promptly burned as witches.


    Can you be more specific? How much did women work?
    What percentage of women worked? How much of a family's income came from the woman?

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post

    The first automobile as we know it today was invented by an evil free market capitalist named Karl Benz in 1879, he only sold them to his rich friends at his country club.

    Look at him all smug driving around in his horse less buggy while others had to walk

    It wasn't until after the 1920's that federal agents finally tracked down Benz's secret auto plant and stole the plans for the good of the American people. Thanks to those brave federal agents no American will have to ride a horse ever again.
    So before 1920, there was no automotive industry, and we're surprised we didn't need the IRS to fund government?

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    You might've not actually ACTIVELy caused anybody harm , but nor has the market provided a mechanism (or if it did, it didnt happen) which "solves" the "problems" (I suppose these are not problems to you).
    3rd party arbitrators have existed for decades. If you happen to need one, you can find one here: http://www.findlaw.com/01topics/11disputeres/index.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by danke View Post
    I carry my man purse for fashion, not function.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    So before 1920, there was no automotive industry, and we're surprised we didn't need the IRS to fund government?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    The government is incapable of doing what it's supposed to do. A job like the provision of security is something best left to private institutions.
    My music/art page is here"government is the enemy of liberty"-RP
    That which doesn't kill me has made a grave tactical error
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This whole board is a thoughtcrime in progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by danke View Post
    I carry my man purse for fashion, not function.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    what kind of life did people live before 1913?
    A damn sight better than 98% of the rest of the world.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    Can you be more specific? How much did women work?
    What percentage of women worked?








    Of course Women worked
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

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    It's all about Freedom

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    So before 1920, there was no automotive industry, and we're surprised we didn't need the IRS to fund government?
    Nope no streets or business either.


    The city was rebuilt without FEMA too.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Nope no streets or business either.
    what percentage of population had cars?
    you want your streets and busineses to be like those of the time?

    The city was rebuilt without FEMA too.
    you want your cities "built" to standards of those days?

    oh, you notice how many (few) people are walking in those films? How many of them are immigrants?
    Last edited by Becker; 10-16-2011 at 10:01 PM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Nope no streets or business either.


    The city was rebuilt without FEMA too.




    BTW, weren't there like 20 million Ford Model Ts built?
    "let them search you,touch you,violate your Rights,just don't be a dick!"~ cdc482
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  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    How many of them are immigrants?
    Just guessing. Quite a few.. Most possibly.

    Give it up Glen,, you're trolling.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by aGameOfThrones View Post




    BTW, weren't there like 20 million Ford Model Ts built?
    was there? oh, you mean prior to competition, right?

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Just guessing. Quite a few.. Most possibly.

    Give it up Glen,, you're trolling.
    '

    you don't know, because the context of population destroys your comparison.

    there's plenty of underdeveloped and underpopulated US cities and counties that'll give you the 1910 experience.

    Perhaps you can tell me what is so admirable and desireable of the 1906 lifestyle depicted in the film? Slow cars? Everybody wearing suits? Wide streets? What exactly am I missing today that's available on the film?
    Last edited by Becker; 10-16-2011 at 10:08 PM.

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becker View Post
    '
    What exactly am I missing today that's available on the film?
    Liberty.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Liberty.
    I knew you had no specific answer, sorry, I must be blind, I'm not seeing it. If that's liberty, I'm glad I don't have it.

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