Coptic Christian in Egypt under siege

[BlackTerrel]

I have a number of Coptic friends who went to college in the US and still live here. I have been reading the articles and their opinions over the situation over facebook the last two hours and they are worried for their family over there.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsCont...s-violent.aspx

From my friend: What's most worrying here is that the Christians are attacked by both the military and plain clothed. Attacking the Christian population is becoming a cause uniting the ruling military and a majority of the Muslim population who, uneducated and subjected to 30 years of propaganda, simply detest Christians. The Copts are pretty much on their own.

Disturbing video of Egyptian military vehicles running over Coptic protesters this evening:

[James Madison]

Same as Iraq.

[moderate libertarian]

BlackTerrel, why should we care more for a dozen BrownChristians in Egypt as a result of change that cost almost no American lives than we cared for hundreds of thousands of BrownChristians killed/exiled out of Iraq as a result of Iraq freedom war that cost us 2 trillion dollars and almost 100K American lives/limbs?

[BlackTerrel]

Well first off your question has no basis because I have posted about Iraqis here before as well. The situation in Iraq is terrible.

For the record it is much more severe than "a dozen BrownChristians in Egypt"... that is an incredibly ignorant and disrespectful thing to say.

[talkingpointes]

Well first off your question has no basis because I have posted about Iraqis here before as well. The situation in Iraq is terrible.

For the record it is much more severe than "a dozen BrownChristians in Egypt"... that is an incredibly ignorant and disrespectful thing to say.

Pretty sure he is being sarcastic. With that being said, that is some fairly gruesome footage, and I for one feel incredibly sorry for these people.

[moderate libertarian]

Well first off your question has no basis because I have posted about Iraqis here before as well. The situation in Iraq is terrible.

For the record it is much more severe than "a dozen BrownChristians in Egypt"... that is an incredibly ignorant and disrespectful thing to say.

I personally find it horrific development but I was pointing out that don't expect any huge outcry in America considering our consistent record about our sensitivity towards killing of brown people in mideast in recent past regardless of their religion. Besides just few hoursago you were suggesting that "death to all arabs" slogans painted in a foreign country by US tax payers funded settlers were not news worthy for US media. However I would not use this tragedy to drum up support for murderours torturers like foreign puppet dictator Mabarak who hopefully would be brought to justice in near future like all other criminals who violate sanctity of innocent life regardless of skin color, religion etc.

[TER]

Lord have mercy.

[Nathaniel1984]

As I understand it from my Coptic dentist, there are large numbers of Coptic Christians in Egypt who are just getting out of the country. They may have gotten rid of Mubarak, but, that is not going to change the system. They're just going to get someone else in power who is going to be just as bad, and maybe worse.

Everywhere I go I meet Coptic Christians, and I ask them what has been their experience under Muslim rule in Egypt, and they all have replied "It is no good for us, and no good for our country." Of course, America going on some fool's errand crusade to fix the persecution of the Copts in Egypt (with God forbid, a Libya time attack or something of that sort), would just backfire, and the Copts would be blamed by the Egyptian Muslims at large for being collaboraters with the Christian Zionist Crusader government.

If the majority of the Egyptian people continue to choose to go down the road of severe persecution of religious minorities, backed up by the state socialisms of Egypt, eventually they are going to drive all the Copts outs, or a large majority.

This is a case in point of how the ruling class takes advantage of popular prejudice to distract the masses from the real problems of the nation. As my Coptic dentist said, "Just because the protesters say they want democracy in Egypt, doesn't mean they want democracy for the Copts."

Again, not saying the Federal Government should be involved, but, pointing out an obvious injustice, and pointing out that there is nothing the US government could really do (aside from allowing immigration of Copts) to help without making things substantially worse.

[pcosmar]

Egypt's big problem was that they compromised and allowed Suleiman to remain in power.
He is the head of the Police apparatus. He engineered much of the opposition and violence, and is likely behind this violence.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...048148,00.html

The US loves Suleiman, and he has been a partner in torture programs. Mubarak was only part of the problem. This guy needs to go as well. You can trace police violence directly to him,, and likely the attacks on churches that led to it.

[vita3]

Coptics were favored under Mubarack. They are going to have an uphill climb.

Christians all throughout the ME are paying the price of the b.s. war on terror.

[BlackTerrel]

As I understand it from my Coptic dentist, there are large numbers of Coptic Christians in Egypt who are just getting out of the country. They may have gotten rid of Mubarak, but, that is not going to change the system. They're just going to get someone else in power who is going to be just as bad, and maybe worse.

Everywhere I go I meet Coptic Christians, and I ask them what has been their experience under Muslim rule in Egypt, and they all have replied "It is no good for us, and no good for our country." Of course, America going on some fool's errand crusade to fix the persecution of the Copts in Egypt (with God forbid, a Libya time attack or something of that sort), would just backfire, and the Copts would be blamed by the Egyptian Muslims at large for being collaboraters with the Christian Zionist Crusader government.

If the majority of the Egyptian people continue to choose to go down the road of severe persecution of religious minorities, backed up by the state socialisms of Egypt, eventually they are going to drive all the Copts outs, or a large majority.

This is a case in point of how the ruling class takes advantage of popular prejudice to distract the masses from the real problems of the nation. As my Coptic dentist said, "Just because the protesters say they want democracy in Egypt, doesn't mean they want democracy for the Copts."

Again, not saying the Federal Government should be involved, but, pointing out an obvious injustice, and pointing out that there is nothing the US government could really do (aside from allowing immigration of Copts) to help without making things substantially worse.

This is my exact experience and thoughts as well. It sounds like things are only getting worse and they are being attacked by all sides.

Defund the Egyptian military. Help these people move here if they like.

[oyarde]

It will be Chaos and violence , any who have the means or an ability to find them , need to leave the cities .

[BlackTerrel]

Testimony from a family member of one of my friends. Since he has US citizenship he is afforded some protection.

While some Muslims are trying to protect the Copts the vast majority are uneducated and have bought into years of propoganda and simply hate the Christians. This testimonial reminds me of a lynch mob and surely must be what it was like for a jew in Germany in the 20's.

http://www.facebook.com/notes/hani-b...50321526196820

This is my testimony about the attack that I suffered in downtown Cairo on October 9, 2011:

I began to hear on the TV and on twitter that things were escalating in the Maspero area, and so I called a friend and we decided to go to Tahrir Square. We took the metro and we were there by 8 p.m.



When we arrived in Tahrir Square, I could smell the tear gas in the air, and some people were running back from Abedl Moniem Reyad square towards Tahrir. I and my friends went ahead and walked to Abedl Moniem Reyad square, where there was a battle in rock throwing between some people on our side, and some people coming from Ramsis Hilton towards Tahrir.



I separated from my friends, and I went ahead with the rock throwing people. I got hit by a rock thrown by an army soldier who was throwing rocks from the Ramsis Hilton side. The rock throwing was done by army soldiers and civilians.



Our battle with them succeeded and we marched towards Maspero. The people marching were chanting “Christians and Muslims are one Hand” and I was leading them in saying that. I met with Alaa of manalaa.com and we continued to march towards Maspero.



The group was peaceful, and I was taking pictures using my Ipad. We reached the point where the 6th October bridge exits towards Maspero, and there was a large cordon of police who are members of the Central Security Forces (CSF). There, I was told not take pictures by people wearing civilian clothing and I fought back saying it was my right.



I began to walk back towards Hilton Ramsis, and suddenly 5 vehicles full of CSF soldiers showed up. People began to pelt them with rocks, destroying the wind shields, and the causing the drivers of the vehicles to panic, thereby hitting into each other and the sides of the road. I and some other people were trying to calm people down into not attacking the vehicles but the people were angry.



At that point, I was alone, and so I began to walk back to Tahrir. I was tweeting at that time. Someone saw me tweeting and came to me. He asked my name and so I said Hani Sobhi, he then grabbed my wrists to see if I had a cross tattoo, and when he did not find it, he asked for my full name. I said Hani Sobhi Bushra. He asked if I was a Muslim or a Christian, and I said that I was a Christian.



At that point he began to scream for others that he caught a Christian, and people began to gather. They wanted to search me and my bag, and I said that I will not let them, and that it was best to go to an officer. At that point there was about 30 people around me, with some of them punching me on my head.



I began to walk quickly to the cordon of the police that I had just came from. At that point, someone yanked my gold chain from across my neck and took the cross. All I did was to tell him “wow, you are such a man” and I clapped for him. That pissed the people who were with me, and so someone snatched my phone from my belt.



I kept shouting at the thief to give me my phone back, and he said that he will give it to me in front of the police officer. By that time, I was being hit from many people, my ankle was sprained and I was called a “Nossrani (Christian)” dog.



We reached the officer (rank of general), and the first thing that I did was to show him my U.S. passport and told him that I am now under his protection. I told him that I was attacked because I was a Christian. One of the men who is a policeman but wearing civilian clothing began to talk to the general that I was a Christian and that I institigated the mob to attack me and that I am carrying weapons in my bag. The officer, who had seen my passport, told him to shut up. This policeman in the civilian clothing seemed to be the coordinator between the mob and the police.



The general pushed me back behind the cordon of CSF soldiers, but I wanted to get my phone back, and so I went out again. The person who had stolen my phone was right there, and I told the general that I wanted my phone back.



As I was talking to the general, a group of policemen were around me, one of them was behind me poking my butthole with his stick. I turned around and said that if you want to $#@! me in the ass, you should be man enough to $#@! me in public. At that point the policeman in civilian clothing who had earlier clashed with me called me a liar, and the general once again told him to shut up.



I was assigned a young officer to protect me. My phone was gone, and they wanted to protect me until it was safe. I met two young officers, a first and second lieutenants, who were very respectful and were concerned for me. I told them that I hope that when they grew in their rank, they would always remain this professional. They were so nice that one of them let me use his phone so that I can call Happy and tell him that I was okay.



I mentioned that I was a Christian being attacked by a mob, and the officers told me that I should not mention that I am a Christian because they may not be able to protect me. This was in the midst of at least 400 members of the police! At that point, I was assigned two handlers to stay with me at all times.



I stayed with the CSF units and observed the following:



1) Four bodies in the lobby of an apartment building that the Egyptian ambulances could not carry because the blood was everywhere and because some of the bodies were in pieces. When I asked my CSF companions (we had became friends) about the bodies, they told me it was three Christians and one Muslim shot by the army and driven over using a humvee (yep, my tax dollars in action, btw, the U.S. gives two billion dollars a year as aid to the Egyptian military).



2) The members of the CSF were armed with live ammunition, and the order was given in front of me.



3) One of the CSF companions told me that he beat senseless a Christian man he arrested because it was said that this man was carrying a gun and shooting the people.



4) The army and not the police were the ones attacking the protestors. In fact, the police was not doing anything.



I was there for about two hours, and then suddenly a mob came to the police saying “Christians where are you, Islam is here”. They were not stopped by anyone but cheered by army units that were parked by the CSF cordon.



I used the confusion with this mob arriving and walked away from my handlers, towards Tahrir. I reached the Kasr El Dobra church, and there I saw another Muslim mob chanting “Christians where are you, Islam is here”. What shocked me is that an army officer with a rank of Lieutenant Colonel was organizing these mobs telling them that they should be the first line of defense and they will stand behind them.



At that point, Tahrir was full of people chanting “Christians where are you, Islam is here”. Someone came to me and said that it was good that I was safe. He said that he was there at the time of my beating. He said that the same mob that attacked me returned and beat two other people senseless because they were Christians. I am thankful that I did not end up in that way.



I connected with Happy at a place called Al Borsa, and was able to get home safely. I am safe, but I am saddened about what happened. This is not religious strife, this is state sponsored terrorism towards the Copts.

[BlackTerrel]

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/503772

Can the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) now claim it decided not to open fire on Egyptians during the revolution?

Can it make such a claim after what happened on the evening of 9 October?

Or was the SCAF only talking about Egyptian Muslims when it pledged not to shoot at Egyptians? The horrific events that took place on this sad Sunday evening must not pass without identifying the aim behind it, as well as the plan by which it was carried out.

According to Muslim activist eyewitness accounts, which made use of various online social media to expose the reality of what actually happened on the ground, the Copts did not initiate the attack on the armed forces, but rather, the armed forces attacked the Copts with unprecedented brutality.

No one can deny that what took place on 9 October was a major shift with regard to the dynamics of sectarianism in Egypt. For this was the first massacre of Copts at the hands of the Egyptian state, represented by the authorities currently ruling the country – the SCAF, in other words – with the support of state media outlets.

Does anyone believe the standard media discourse and government statements saying this was an attempt by "external forces" to harm Egypt? Doesn’t the fact that the media was conveniently present from the start of these events reveal that this was a laid-out plan and that state media outlets were waiting to mislead the public by claiming the Copts initiated the attack on the armed forces, as well as appealing to citizens to rise up to defend the armed forces against the attacking Copts?

Meanwhile, satellite TV stations broadcast footage of armored vehicles speeding back and forth, running over Copts and crushing them to death, while state media outlets declared the death of two army soldiers, completely ignoring the deaths of over 20 Copts.

Does anyone believe this was a spontaneous scenario and that the appeal to Muslims to support the army against the Copts was not a premeditated plan to push Islamists, not only in the direction of protesting while chanting Islamic slogans, but also to chase Copts through the streets, and to check the identity of those they encounter to determine whether they are Muslim or Christian?

Why are Islamists and Salafis allowed to condemn Christians on TV, while the Muslim activists who took part in the protest to demand equal human rights are not given the same rights? These Muslim activists joined the protest following the series of attacks on churches, the most recent of which was the Marenab Church attack, which the media and authorities went so far as to claim did not occur.

We are now without a doubt witnessing an escalation, which cannot be solely attributed to the state simply aligning with its religious affiliation. We are now facing a scene in which armored vehicles are running over Copts, while the media calls on Muslim citizens to support it against the Copts, who allegedly initiated the attack on the unarmed army soldiers, who were there to protect them.

Will the perpetrators once again get away without punishment, as in all past sectarianism incidents, particularly those following the revolution, especially since the culprit is the ruling authority? Will the dead Copts be buried without a forensic examination, which would expose the crime of converting the victim into the perpetrator in the eyes of the Muslim public?

I'm not asking Christians to raise their voices for the world to hear their cries against the beginnings of an ethnic cleansing and the incitement of civil war against them. Rather, I am calling on the Muslims to do so, especially those whose online accounts of what actually happened expose the authorities’ political agenda.

Can anyone imagine what will happen to Egypt in the coming days? I doubt any of us has an answer to this daunting question. Unfortunately, only the SCAF has the answer. After all, it was the SCAF who wrote the scenario and carried it out, and only they know how their scenario will develop in later stages.

As for those of us who believe that Egypt is for all Egyptians, Muslims and Copts alike, all we know is that this is no longer the case.

[BlackTerrel]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...&type=1&ref=nf

Video of a soldier bragging about how he shot a Copt in the chest and is cheered on by the crowd.