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Thread: "Romney is NOT a Christian, he's a Mormon" says VVS speaker!

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by realtonygoodwin View Post
    A. Mormons would be the first to tell you they are not Protestant.
    B. I guess it boils down to how you define "Christian."
    Does it make any sense for a faith to call themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, just so other christian faiths who are vehemently opposed to their religion can claim they don't follow the teachings Christ. I've gone to a Mormon church, I can assure you they read the New Testament and follow its teachings along with their own texts.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by tribute_13 View Post
    Does it make any sense for a faith to call themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, just so other christian faiths who are vehemently opposed to their religion can claim they don't follow the teachings Christ. I've gone to a Mormon church, I can assure you they read the New Testament and follow its teachings along with their own texts.
    And their leaders don't get paid.

    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaAvenger View Post
    http://carm.org/teachings-of-mormonism

    This outlines what Mormons believe, but do not use as an approach to convert people. These are some major differences.



    Christians? I think not.

    But lets be clear, they do have a high moral code.
    ATONEMENT: "We accept Christ's Atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," I'd add "and Repenting when we sin". You have a problem with this because? Is it because you think that once you just confess you're a sinner you can go and do whatever you want and it doesn't matter? That is a false doctrine. According to Christ we have to "be born of the water and of the Spirit" in order to enter into the "kingdom of God" (John 3:5). The Apostles were command to go forth and baptize all nations (Matt. 28:19) in the name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Ghost. In Mark 16:16 Christ says you need to believe AND be baptized in order to be saved, all others would be damned. It is clear you need to do more than simply "confess".

    BIBLE: I find it ironic you reject prophets based on extra-biblical teaching. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that "380 years after the Book of Revelation is written, when a counsel of men get together and vote which religious material they like and put it together into one volume, THEN are my words finished and you should adhere strictly to that book even though none of you can agree what it means or which translation is best, or which of you is right so really you won't figure out how to adhere strictly to it anyway." The Bible is not infallible. It has passed through to many hands, some books over the case of thousands of years, who weren't inspired or incapable of error. I love the Bible, honor it as holy writ, and respect many of the men who tried the best they could to keep it correct even though many evil men worked to change it to say whatever they wanted. But it isn't perfect and it neither claims to be either perfect OR the word of God.

    GOD: The "many gods" are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Those are "the Gods" mentioned in Abraham.

    JESUS: To quote Christ "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12:31-32. Clearly there are sins which not even Christ will forgive you for. The sin against the Holy Ghost consists of knowing God is real without any doubt, having Him revealed unto you, and rejecting Him and turning against Him to sin. The hearts of such people turn to the worst types of sin, such as murder and adultery, in their wickedness. They essentially reenact the rebellion of Lucifer in their own lives.

    JOSEPH SMITH: There is no salvation outside the Church of God. It is why we do baptisms for the dead. Paul taught that the dead resurrected and could be saved otherwise "why baptize for the dead if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead" (1 Cor. 15:29) Having a testimony is essential in this life in gaining knowledge that The Church of Jesus Christ fo Latter-day Saints is Christ's church since he was the first modern prophet.

    Pre-Existence: In Jeremiah 1:5 God tells him that before he was "formed in the belly I knew they and ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." When did God ordain Jeremiah a prophet before he was even a fetus? How? In the per-existence when Jeremiah as a spirit lived with God. In Proverbs 8:21-31 we learn that Wisdom was had by the Lord and among the sons of men before even the Earth was formed. How is this so since Adam was only formed AFTER the earth? Because we were spirits with God before our physical creation, spirits with free will and intelligence.

    SALVATION: Grace comes by faith and faith comes by works "Faith without works is dead" says James 2:20. And of course dead faith cannot bring forth grace to salvation. God asks us to do our part, to reach for Him as He reaches for us. He even goes so far in 2:19 as to say that belief cannot save because even the devils believe in Christ and tremble before Him yet they are still damned, the implication being so are you if all you do is "believe." As said before baptism is also required for salvation. Mormons understand it isn't their works that saves them, but the Atonement of Christ only yet works, obedience to God and His commandments and repentance when we fail to do so, are required still.

    TRINITY:There is plenty of evidence for three separate beings. At Christ's baptism in Matthew 3:16 you have Jesus in the water, the Holy Spirit descending in the form fo the dove, and God The Father speaking form Heaven. Three separate Beings in three separate places. Also in John 17:3 Christ prays that the Apostles, and all those who believe on their words, would be one even as Christ and the Father are one. Obviously Christ didn't mean that all believers should somehow spiritually merge into one being as Trinitarians believe God and Christ are, but that they should be unified in all things "of one heart and one mind" as Christ and God are. This gives us a great understanding of what Christ means when He says "The Father and I are one" as well. Here it is clarified that they one in the same way all believers should be one, not as a separate but mystically same being.

    You may notice I didn't address God or "Mother God" as you said it. God has form. That much is evident from Exodus 33 where Moses speaks to God face to face as a man speaketh to his friend (verse 11) and also sees his "back parts" (verse 23) which also implies he has "front parts" too. But as for His body, and the existence of His wife, that comes down to modern revelation. The Bible is silent on these, but you can know if they are true or not. And just saying "the Bible doesn't talk about it therefore it can't be true" is a cop out. The Bible doesn't talk about bacteria, or the planet Jupiter, or other galaxies, or movies, yet we all know these things are real as well. I testify that it is real. That Joseph Smith was a Prophet, that God speaks today, that He loves us and the Jesus Christ is my Savior and Friend. I love them and I love you.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
    This does not say "Those who are not baptized will be condemned".
    It's Scriptural grey area.
    Mark 16:16 says those who do not believe and are baptized are damned. Its why babies are baptized, to save them from damnation.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Mark 16:16 says those who do not believe and are baptized are damned. Its why babies are baptized, to save them from damnation.
    I think this needs a slight re-wording
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    The ones about the Virgin Mary I didn't include in the "master list" precisely because they are Catholic/Anglican views.
    Then are those who don't believe in them Christian if they don't believe them? You denounced Mormons as non-Christians based on them. What about Protestants? And if tehy are Christians without believing them, then why not Mormons?

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I think this needs a slight re-wording
    I should say "its why some churches baptize babies, to save them from being damned." Mark 16:16 for those unable to get access to an online Bible "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." It is clear to me that belief leads to the act of baptism and those two combined lead to salvation. Not believing,and therefore not being baptized, leads to damnation.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Baptists don't believe in half these things. Are they Christians? Yes they are. You just defined a specific TYPE of Christian, i.e. a Catholic, not all Christians.
    you miss one key element. Mormons believe in polytheism,that "God" the Father was once like us,and that through his noble deeds he became a "God"..and that such a thing can be achieved by humans. Tell me again that its christian,..the ignorance astounds me.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Hah, your pre-existence story was worded way better than mine, I'm pretty rusty.
    But still pretty accurate. Thanks for the help setting things correct too. Its very appreciated.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainAmerica View Post
    you miss one key element. Mormons believe in polytheism,that "God" the Father was once like us,and that through his noble deeds he became a "God"..and that such a thing can be achieved by humans. Tell me again that its christian,..the ignorance astounds me.
    It sure is. It is a truth that comes from God, revealed from Heaven, through modern prophets. Just because you reject it as non-Christian doesn't make it so as it comes from Christ Himself. What astounds me is that Christianity has stopped being the revealed will of God and become a fossilized dead faith. Its more akin to Pharisaical Judaism than the living truth of Christ.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Then are those who don't believe in them Christian if they don't believe them? You denounced Mormons as non-Christians based on them. What about Protestants? And if tehy are Christians without believing them, then why not Mormons?
    I was saying I don't believe Mormons are Christians, and that most Christians would not consider them to be Christian either based on the points I made. I highlighted the 3 main ones, because those are core beliefs that all Christians share and Mormons do not.

    I added the ones about the Virgin Mary because those are beliefs that Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox and some Lutherans and Reformers hold and are very important to their faiths.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Oh give me a break. You can make up all the crap you want about how it is different, it doesn't mean it's true.
    Isn't it practically a prerequisite of being a Mormon to believe that it is very different?



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    I was saying I don't believe Mormons are Christians, and that most Christians would not consider them to be Christian either based on the points I made. I highlighted the 3 main ones, because those are core beliefs that all Christians share and Mormons do not.

    I added the ones about the Virgin Mary because those are beliefs that Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox and some Lutherans and Reformers hold and are very important to their faiths.
    But even it that your wrong as many Protestant faiths reject original sin and baptism. Catholics do not view the Bible as the final source of truth, that is the Pope through his position as successor to Saint Peter. He may use the Bible as a guide, but it isn't necessary. He doesn't gain "revelation" but His power of inspiration is infallible to them and he can issue papal bulls that have nothing to do with the Bible but have as much binding doctrinal force based on that infallibility alone. Does that make Catholics non-Christian, to have another source of doctrine other than the Bible? Many Protestants would say so.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Isn't it practically a prerequisite of being a Mormon to believe that it is very different?
    This is true in that you believe traditional Christianity went astray. But that isn't the same as saying that they aren't followers of Christ either. We believe traditional Christians follow the Savior but have some things incorrect. On the other hand I cannot count how many times I have been told I do not, and can not, be a worshiper of Christ because I am LDS. That is what this whole thread is really over. By saying LDS aren't Christian its basically saying they don't worship Jesus, which is untrue. And that annoys me greatly because its denying what I know with all of my being, that Christ is my Savior, Lord, and King.
    Last edited by PierzStyx; 10-07-2011 at 06:53 PM.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    But even it that your wrong as many Protestant faiths reject original sin and baptism. Catholics do not view the Bible as the final source of truth, that is the Pope through his position as successor to Saint Peter. He may use the Bible as a guide, but it isn't necessary. He doesn't gain "revelation" but His power of inspiration is infallible to them and he can issue papal bulls that have nothing to do with the Bible but have as much binding doctrinal force based on that infallibility alone. Does that make Catholics non-Christian, to have another source of doctrine other than the Bible? Many Protestants would say so.
    Catholics do view the Bible as the ultimate source of truth. What you're talking about is Papal Infallibility, which is only valid in the interpretation. This dogma, however, does not state either that the Pope cannot sin in his own personal life or that he is necessarily free of error, even when speaking in his official capacity. The Catholic Church does not teach that the Pope is infallible in everything he says; official invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare. There are really only two examples of it ever being used: Pope Pius IX's 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and Pope Pius XII's 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary and they weren't changes to Catholic teachings, but more reaffirming the long-standing official positions of the Church.

  19. #76
    Certainly Mormonism is different from every OTHER Christian faith - VERY different. However, one thing I can say with certainty, is we believe that salvation comes ONLY through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We beleive that only thru faith in Jesus Christ can you be cleansed of sin. We believe in the importance of works ONLY because a person with faith will show that faith thru works...anything else is "drawing near to (Him) with their lips, but their hearts are far from (Him).

    We do believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are distinct personages, but ONE God. At the baptism of Jesus, did not the Holy Spirit descend in the form of a dove and a voice from heaven proclaim the divinity of Christ? We do not believe that Christ was being a prestidigitator nor a ventriliquist. Also, Christ commanded that we all be one "even as I and the Father are one." He wanted us to be one in purpose, not somehow meld into some combined being sharing a single physical body.

    But the bottom line is, redemption from the chains of hell come only through Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary and the Eternal Father. Christ is the chief cornerstone. Please explain to me what above and beyond that belief is required to be Christian? Most of the beliefs you quote (that you have and that we don't) were voted on by the Nicene counsel hundreds of years after Christ lived. Shame on you to think you have authority to discern who is Christian and who is not (that takes upon themself the name of Christ).
    "The journalist is one who separates the wheat from the chaff, and then prints the chaff." - Adlai Stevenson

    “I tell you that virtue does not come from money: but from virtue comes money and all other good things to man, both to the individual and to the state.” - Socrates

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Original_Intent View Post
    Certainly Mormonism is different from every OTHER Christian faith - VERY different. However, one thing I can say with certainty, is we believe that salvation comes ONLY through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We beleive that only thru faith in Jesus Christ can you be cleansed of sin. We believe in the importance of works ONLY because a person with faith will show that faith thru works...anything else is "drawing near to (Him) with their lips, but their hearts are far from (Him).

    We do believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are distinct personages, but ONE God. At the baptism of Jesus, did not the Holy Spirit descend in the form of a dove and a voice from heaven proclaim the divinity of Christ? We do not believe that Christ was being a prestidigitator nor a ventriliquist. Also, Christ commanded that we all be one "even as I and the Father are one." He wanted us to be one in purpose, not somehow meld into some combined being sharing a single physical body.

    But the bottom line is, redemption from the chains of hell come only through Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary and the Eternal Father. Christ is the chief cornerstone. Please explain to me what above and beyond that belief is required to be Christian? Most of the beliefs you quote (that you have and that we don't) were voted on by the Nicene counsel hundreds of years after Christ lived. Shame on you to think you have authority to discern who is Christian and who is not (that takes upon themself the name of Christ).
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  21. #78
    Oh the pain of people arguing back and forth on things they clearly haven't taken the time to understand but would live an die for
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Oh the pain of people arguing back and forth on things they clearly haven't taken the time to understand but would live an die for
    Dude, I have almost half the posts in this thread and I'm agnostic..

    I just always thought growing up as a Mormon that the argument that Mormons aren't Christian was ridiculous.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  23. #80
    ^you must spread reputation around before you can give it to dannno again!^



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  25. #81
    Is there any way this VVS kerfuffle could be utilized to persuade potential voters to switch to Ron Paul?
    Last edited by Omphfullas Zamboni; 10-07-2011 at 08:19 PM.
    It doesn't end with this election cycle. Commit to long term change, and you won't see all the GOP state convention shenanigans as the end of the Ron Paul Revolution--but as the end of the neocon control of the GOP, (and the beginning of the Ron Paul Revolution). Hang in there for another year or so, and you'll start to see some absolutely amazing results for all of our efforts. ~Ninja Homer

  26. #82
    I am never a fan of the "I decide who is a Christian" people. Very judgmental.

    The Mormons I have met have been without exception some of the most amazing human beings I have ever met. I can't say enough good things about them.

    All that said his religion will hurt Romney - and if that helps Ron Paul so be it.
    Ron Paul: "For those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do."

  27. #83
    Probably not. Perry is appealing to his base, not against them. If anything it'll drive more Mormons to Romney for the sake of solidarity.

  28. #84
    Muslims also have a prophet who believed in Jesus.
    ..Oo.o~ Rights are Divine ~o.oO..

  29. #85

    I Have to Agree With Robert Jeffress

    Mitt Romney is not a Christian, but even if he was, his views on civil government do not comport with the Bible (like most of the GOP candidates who consider themselves Christians).
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    If Christ is a god, and they worship him, the existence of potentially billions of other gods puts them more in the Hindu camp than close to anything resembling Christianity.
    Well, perhaps. But, you know, we don't live in a celestial sphere after all. Turns out American Exceptionalism is a recipe for disaster, and maybe Human Exceptionalism is too. Certainly our insistence that God can't send Jesus to save one group and Mohammed to save another group has led to some terrible intolerance we would be better off without. But to deny that Yahweh and Allah are one and the same is to deny that Isaac and Ishmael were brothers, imo.

    There are a lot of Islamic and Christian fundamentalists who do a lot of shouting about how their path to God is the only path to God. That isn't giving God much credit, is it? Any good mortal parent can love all of his or her children equally, though they be different, and relate to each differently. Yet we don't assume God can do the same? Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Mormonism apparently teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
    And Christianity teaches that Satan is an angel, and converses with God regularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Hey, Mormons are free to refer to themselves as Christian. And Christians are just as free to say they aren't.
    The Orthodox are among the most theologically shutting-you-out bunch out there... and if they're going to cuddle up with protestants and Catholics over this issue and shut out Mormons.... well that says something.
    When someone that arrogantly exclusive tries to cuddle up to me, I tend to shy away...

    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    ...but even if he was, his views on civil government do not comport with the Bible (like most of the GOP candidates who consider themselves Christians).
    There's a bottom line I can stand behind.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 10-08-2011 at 06:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  31. #87
    There are a lot of different interpretations of the "trinity" depending on which sect of Christianity you're in even beyond the mormon stuff.

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainAmerica View Post
    you miss one key element. Mormons believe in polytheism,that "God" the Father was once like us,and that through his noble deeds he became a "God"..and that such a thing can be achieved by humans. Tell me again that its christian,..the ignorance astounds me.
    The Bible never says other gods don't exist. It just gives the commandment to worship our God Yahweh, that's it. Eternal progression makes sense logically.



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  34. #89
    This is the way I have always looked at it. A good defenition of Christian I came across is as follows: of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Jesus Christ I believe in as a Protestant is not the same Jesus Christ that Mormons believe in. The Jesus I believe in is God in human form. The Jesus Christ that Mormons believe in is the literal Son of God, brother of Satan. Therfore since its not the same Jesus, they are not Christians IMHO.

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDrakeMan View Post
    The Bible never says other gods don't exist. It just gives the commandment to worship our God Yahweh, that's it. Eternal progression makes sense logically.
    Made sense to C.S. Lewis who declared "There is no such thing as a normal person. Every person is a potential god or goddess" and should be treated as such.

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