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  1. #1

    Removed...

    Apparently I have been removed from the meetup group due to my complaint. I will no longer support the Salt Lake group. I also will be calling the campaign to discuss my complaint. There is now way that a grassroots campaign can function under a dictatorship. It was fun while it lasted and maybe I will some of you at other things, but I wont be involved with the meetup events.



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  3. #2
    What complaint? Please fill us in.

    Thanks....

  4. #3
    Here was what I had stated on the meetup site:

    I am tired of the infighting. I am sick of hearing all of these hoops and hurdles that have to be jumped through. If I want to go stand outside with a few people I will not consult a committee first. If I write a flyer, or poster on my own accord im not submitting it for some magical approval. We can accomplish much by working together, sharing ideas, resources. If we are forced into some hierarchy though we will never get anything done. Those who want to so something should be able to just do it, if they want help or others to help they should be able to ask. From what I am seeing this is breaking down. I will no longer be involved in the meetup. I will not delete my account as Ron Paul needs the numbers. I will coordinate any activities I do through email and the www.ronpaulforums.com website.

    I want Ron Paul as President because I value my freedom and my rights. As this groups stands right now I don't feel free. I hope to still work with many of you and I still will be working hard to get Dr. Paul elected.

  5. #4
    And next they pull this:
    Head games, bullying, deception, circumventing, making the group liable for unapproved debt, subgroups who "profess" to be Ron Paul supporters, but reject campaign headquarters' duly constituted lines of authority and infrastructure for winning the campaign, by out and out saying they're not "obligated to the campaign or to Lew Moore" and base their actions on that belief system -- these are Karl Rove tactics for keeping the corrupt status quo in place.

    Inadvertently, or on purpose, we can't tell, the corrupt GOP methods of operation have been introduced into our Ron Paul group. This is a movement across the nation, according to the campaign headquarters. People with large egos join up as meetup organizers, or people within the meetup groups discredit the organizers to the rest of the group, and kidnap the movement and then divert it off in an opposite direction. Yes, they still "profess" to be Ron Paul supporters the entire time, BUT refuse to follow Ron Paul's campaign organization. Saying they don't need a "Meetup Czar" to tell them what to do must have Karl Rove, et. al. laughing their heads off in the smoke-filled rooms of the White House! This will not get Ron Paul elected, and they know it. All this does is cut Ron Paul off from his supporters, and destroys the campaign infrastructure that he designed himself to assure getting elected!

    We the Organizers here in Salt Lake County Meetup group have been accused of all kinds of atrocities that have no basis in reality. If you, as a group member, honestly can't tell the difference ("by their fruits ye shall know them") between the real group of Ron Paul supporters who are following campaign headquarters, and feel obligated to them, or the new subgroup who "professes" to be Ron Paul supporters, but use all the above named GOP tactics to allegedly go in that direction, then all we can say is "Houston, we have a problem!"

    One example: Ronald Levine has given the group 400 pounds of free sign-making material. Now all of a sudden that's not good enough for this particular subgroup, with no discussion of why it's not good enough with the group, and telling the group we need to shell out another $200 in "better" sign materials--this is after our group has been made liable for paying Thomas Jefferson another $100 without any foreknowledge. Sure, the group's being told it'll be paid for right now, but there's always the chance of a receipt submitted for reimbursement later that the group will be liable for---these kind of tactics, we understand, were used to get the Utah GOP in debt for $300,000. Oh, sure, it's all for making signs for Ron Paul, and we organizers are being told we're totally out of line, loving our authority and position, sitting back and attacking others while we stake out our territory, and many other abusive labels and mischaracterizations through using the "Big Lie" technique>>"repeated often enough, it's believed>>....if it can't be seen as the new subgroup's behavior because they don't need a "Meetup Czar" or to be "obligated to the campaign or campaign manager" out of their own mouth(s), if it can't be seen as a Karl Rove type of tactic to divide and conquer the group from within because it's being orchestrated nationwide to be done just this way, and if it can't be seen that some group members are listening to these alternate voices that are leading us into debt and deception, then Ron Paul's campaign for president will truly fail, and we will have lost our last chance at liberty for a long time.

    Ron Paul's life and voting record are impeccable. Lew said it on June 9: "Ron Paul will be running an impeccable campaign." What has the enemy got other than to subvert Ron Paul's campaign management infrastructure? If a group member can't handle receiving simple instructions from campaign headquarters, what are they going to do when it really gets tough? If they can't handle following a simple infrastructure to be accountable to, then they're saying they can't really handle following the US Constitution, which is about freedom. The US Constitution is not about being a law unto ourselves where we can trash the life, liberty, and property of others.

    Leaving the group but leaving your account open to give Ron Paul the numbers is deception--just what Karl Rove et.al., want in proving we don't have real supporters. That doesn't meet the "impeccable" rule given to us by campaign headquarters.

    Once a person has been conned in this manner, they become very reluctant to admit it, and the tendency is to maintain they couldn't be capable of making that kind of mistake. We the Organizers will be the first to admit that we've been conned. The illusion has worn off now, however, now it's time to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation!

    It's your choice, as always. Our group will continue to grow and serve the Ron Paul campaign, with or without the divide-and-conquor-corrupt tactics.

    Restore our Republic with the Ron Paul Revolution!
    V&L, organizers in Salt Lake County--Utah
    And due to this I am now officially leaving ANY and ALL support into this campaign.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahApocalypse View Post
    And due to this I am now officially leaving ANY and ALL support into this campaign.
    It looks to me like your support of Ron Paul is conditional on how other people treat you, and not based on principles. You apparently are not getting some personal need met through the meetup group the way you thought it would be, and now you're bitter.

    But I also see what might be some valid points behind that message from "V&L, organizers in Salt Lake County--Utah". I can't know, I didn't see what went on.

    I do feel badly for you if you were treated badly without good cause.

    Stuff like this sometimes happens when human beings congregate.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahApocalypse View Post
    And next they pull this:


    And due to this I am now officially leaving ANY and ALL support into this campaign.

    WOW! Whoever wrote that is a psychopath. Comparing your complaint to "Karl Rove Tactics" is a sick mindgame. I understand what you are dealing with, I too have seen overcontrol at the local level. There appears to be some real jerks who are taking control of the Ron Paul campaign and attempting to control the activities of the grassroots effort. I sincerely wonder what their objectives are, although they are probably just little Hitlers who found a place they can rule. There is also a lot of serious disrespect of fellow campaigners because they tend to try to tell people how to act and treat people as if they are too stupid to be able to act on their own. Its really pathetic, and in the end its going to ensure that Ron Paul never gets elected. This campaign is turning into a joke.

  8. #7
    Ron Paul's life and voting record are impeccable. Lew said it on June 9: "Ron Paul will be running an impeccable campaign." What has the enemy got other than to subvert Ron Paul's campaign management infrastructure? If a group member can't handle receiving simple instructions from campaign headquarters, what are they going to do when it really gets tough? If they can't handle following a simple infrastructure to be accountable to, then they're saying they can't really handle following the US Constitution, which is about freedom. The US Constitution is not about being a law unto ourselves where we can trash the life, liberty, and property of others.
    This is disgusting, and quite frankly offensive. Anyone with this obvious lack of regard for the constitution or lack of understanding really cannot campaign effectively for Dr. Paul's message. The constitution is NOT about imposing arbitrary authority.
    mdh - mdh (at) lpwv (dot) org
    Libertarian Party of West Virginia Chairman

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuastjohn View Post
    Pardon my ignorance. What's an MDH?

  9. #8
    Come on, everyone. The OP has said that he's going to forget about the group and keep supporting Dr. Paul on his own.

    Let's just let this go rather than getting mired in negativity.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by AgentSmith View Post
    WOW! Whoever wrote that is a psychopath. Comparing your complaint to "Karl Rove Tactics" is a sick mindgame. I understand what you are dealing with, I too have seen overcontrol at the local level. There appears to be some real jerks who are taking control of the Ron Paul campaign and attempting to control the activities of the grassroots effort. I sincerely wonder what their objectives are, although they are probably just little Hitlers who found a place they can rule. There is also a lot of serious disrespect of fellow campaigners because they tend to try to tell people how to act and treat people as if they are too stupid to be able to act on their own. Its really pathetic, and in the end its going to ensure that Ron Paul never gets elected. This campaign is turning into a joke.
    We've gotten several lengthy emails (some Blind CC's intended to smear other individuals) like this via the group email.

    There may be some merit to some complaints, but to me this is counter-productive and I can't see how anyone who wants this to succeed would do this, especially in such a persistent and divisive way.

    The campaign is not turning into a joke, it is becoming very successful and building momentum. What is happening here is exactly what we should expect, especially if you believe there is a spiritual component to this. The great enemy of human agency is working through fallible people who may even mean well to try and destroy this effort.

    The cure for this silly infighting and bickering is perspective... a perspective of the importance of this effort. Anyone who insists on engaging in stuff like this should be ignored.
    Last edited by Swmorgan77; 06-14-2007 at 02:23 PM.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swmorgan77 View Post
    We've gotten several lengthy emails (some Blind CC's intended to smear other individuals) like this via the group email.

    There may be some merit to some complaints, but to me this is counter-productive and I can't see how anyone who wants this to succeed would do this, especially in such a persistent and divisive way.

    The campaign is not turning into a joke, it is becoming very successful and building momentum. What is happening here is exactly what we should expect, especially if you believe there is a spiritual component to this. The great enemy of human agency is working through fallible people who may even mean well to try and destroy this effort.

    The cure for this silly infighting and bickering is perspective... a perspective of the importance of this effort. Anyone who insists on engaging in stuff like this should be ignored.
    Thank you. I am completely disgusted by what is going on.. but I hope your comments will help others in the Salt Lake City group find perspective.

  13. #11
    Hey guys, I'm mired in the middle of this and initially tried to resolve it privily. We'll get through it and hopefully it doesn't come up again subsequently.

    I'm sorry anyone was negatively effected, I do have full confidence we'll get this going again in the right direction.

  14. #12
    Hopefully this will very shortly be resolved. I look forward to working with everyone to keep pushing forward. Thanks to those who have voiced there support both here and in private. I am sorry that I created this firestorm, but I feel it needed to come out.

  15. #13
    Is this crap real?!?! I'm sorry but...LOL...
    Ok. Seriously, start your own meetup group. Get away from the BORG, RUN!!

    I don't think it's your needs that aren't being met - the guy that wrote that email has a more needs than you do....

    Keep on pressing on - RON PAUL 2008!

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahApocalypse View Post
    Hopefully this will very shortly be resolved. I look forward to working with everyone to keep pushing forward. Thanks to those who have voiced there support both here and in private. I am sorry that I created this firestorm, but I feel it needed to come out.
    "We love you, Man!" <tear...>

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahApocalypse View Post
    I also will be calling the campaign to discuss my complaint.
    I don't know anything about this dispute (and believe there are far more productive uses of my time to promote Dr. Paul than look at this), but this idea that the campaign owes you anything is severely misguided and counter-productive. They are severely understaffed and have far more important things to do.
    My review of the For Liberty documentary:
    digg.com/d315eji
    (please Digg and post comments on the HuffPost site)

    "This political train-wreck Republicans face can largely be traced to Bush’s philosophical metamorphosis from a traditional, non-interventionist conservative to the neoconservatives’ exemplar of a 'War President', and his positioning of the Republicans as the 'War Party'."

    Nicholas Sanchez on Bush's legacy, September 30, 2007.

  18. #16
    No, the campaign owes nothing to us in terms of helping to get personal complaints resolved. The concern here is that the campaign itself could be adversely affected by the problems.

    To the group members of the Salt Lake group, I have seen some of the allegations against me. If you want to know any details, my number is (801)466-9233. But other than that let's just move forward and get Ron Paul elected. I've been removed from the meetup group but I'd still like to be involved in other activities to promote Ron Paul, which is the whole point anyway.

    Sincerely,
    Sarah Mansfield
    Last edited by archemeedees; 06-14-2007 at 09:26 PM.
    Let Freedom Ring



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  20. #17
    I'm sorry, but I have to say that it sounds to me like that dude from the Meetup group who wrote to UtahApocalypse, has some serious control issues.

    I do agree that we need to have some structure to what we are doing, if we want to be effective, but I can't imagine that Dr. Paul would share the totalitarian views expressed by this guy.

    UtahApolcalypse, keep on keeping on. We need ya, man.

  21. #18
    I am back. And the situation here in Utah is being worked on.

  22. #19
    Actually, you can thank the McCain-Feingold law for a lot of the need for dictatorship rule among campaign organizers. It's insane the rules each candidate has to follow, along with the steps needed for any function to be taken in the name of that candidate. We were equally eager to do as much grassroots stuff that we could at our meetup group, our coordinator is a pretty laid back guy and he told us that we can do a lot but unfortunately everything has to go through him so that he can go up the chain in order for it to be a "sanctioned" event. It's not something he wants because of a power trip. I know the guy, he'd probably much rather us go out and get some things going without having to go through the hassle. Go to a campaign for another candidate and see if it's any different.

    Remember that free society you thought you lived in? Think again.

  23. #20

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwar View Post
    Actually, you can thank the McCain-Feingold law for a lot of the need for dictatorship rule among campaign organizers. It's insane the rules each candidate has to follow, along with the steps needed for any function to be taken in the name of that candidate. We were equally eager to do as much grassroots stuff that we could at our meetup group, our coordinator is a pretty laid back guy and he told us that we can do a lot but unfortunately everything has to go through him so that he can go up the chain in order for it to be a "sanctioned" event. It's not something he wants because of a power trip. I know the guy, he'd probably much rather us go out and get some things going without having to go through the hassle. Go to a campaign for another candidate and see if it's any different.

    Remember that free society you thought you lived in? Think again.
    I don't see why things need to be sanctioned. If it's sanctioned, it's not grass-roots anymore, it's official. I send the campaign folks money. I'm *glad* they're understaffed at this point, I hope they're saving the cash we're sending for the last month before the primaries in each state - which is when elections are won, as any political strategist will tell you - and not blowing it now, when only activists are really paying a lot of attention anyway. What we, the grass-roots folks, can do on our own is just as valuable as what the campaign people can do. It's up to us to cover the small stuff we *can* do on their own and send them money so that they can pool the funds and do the *big* stuff that small regional groups can't do effectively like mass-media marketing, etc.
    mdh - mdh (at) lpwv (dot) org
    Libertarian Party of West Virginia Chairman

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuastjohn View Post
    Pardon my ignorance. What's an MDH?

  24. #21
    Sounds like the person who wrote that long letter is projecting their own flaws unto others. But, maybe I'm wrong. Who knows, who cares, move on.

  25. #22

    Not a social club

    Wow, it's terrible to read the plans of sabotage Utah has for the campaign after this experience.

    I work 60 hour a week and sleep only 5 every day because I work nights and stay up with the kids while my wife works.

    I've given every minute I can squeeze out to this campaign and to read that really hurts.

    Obviously Utah's head was not in the right place to begin with.

    But also, these MeetUp groups need to avoid micromanagement...realize that all your members are VOLUNTEERS!

  26. #23
    Come on Denver, don't accuse the whole state of Utah. Even those of us that this is being done against want to move on, ignore the idiocies of argument, and get Ron Paul elected. Don't pin the tail on us for the sake of the actions of a tiny minority.
    Let Freedom Ring

  27. #24
    Different strokes for different folks. In my state we have top-down structured meet-ups, and bottom-up structured meet-ups - I prefer bottom-up because it works better with my group. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

    If a particular group doesn't do it for you - then start another one. I am sure Salt Lake is big enough for two groups. Grassroots should not concern itself much with FEC unless alot of money is being passed around, and even then there are workarounds. Cheer for each other and support Ron Paul. Utah is a great State y'all will get through this.



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  29. #25
    Why would you resurrect this thread when it's 5 months old?

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit of '76 View Post
    Come on, everyone. The OP has said that he's going to forget about the group and keep supporting Dr. Paul on his own.

    Let's just let this go rather than getting mired in negativity.
    Right, like the trolls would leave this alone.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler



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