How do we reconcile with pro-Israel warmongers?

[Defining Obscene]

I struggle with this. I've been trying my damn best to provide resources to people, but they are locked into this Santorum-esque mindset that its Islam vs. the west, that Islam is attacking us unprovoked, and that if Israel falls the world is doomed. And of course some of these people are flag-waving pseudopatriots, but I just can't crack their code. I've tried to appeal to them, but its like their ignorance is impenetrable. At least with Obama idiots, there's some room for discussion sometimes, but this is the most neanderthalic group I've come across. Of course these are the Rush Limbaugh people, but what the hell man? Is there anything that works? I've given them Unicef reports about dead Iraqis, they shrug it off. I'm not asking for a silver bullet, if there is one great, but what does it take? Where have you all had success in dealing with these people, assuming somebody here has actually had success?

[realtonygoodwin]

Treating them respectfully and not calling them names is a good place to start.

[Defining Obscene]

It starts there, and it ends there. They are always the first to pull the insult card. They think that its objectively true that Islam attacks America because all 2 billion Muslims hate us and Jews. When you tell them that 2 billion people could probably kill us if they really wanted to, they move onto their next talking point, they agitate for sharia law. Its unending, and they will justify our blood for Israel's gains like the founding fathers advocated it. Its breath-taking.

[moreliberty]

Just remind them that Isreal has the right to defend itself. Rellying on us puts them in a difficult position and hinders there abililty to think and act on there own. Plus what happens to Isreal if we don't get our own house in order, that one gets alot of them thinking, esp if they realize the postion we are in at home.

[mainstream economist]

Are they warmongers who happen to like Israel? Or are they pro-Israel but under the false impression that our current policy helps Israel?

1) Remind them that we give three times more foreign aid to the enemies of Israel than we do to Israel. If Ron Paul is elected president, then he will end all foreign aid to all foreign nations. This is actually a net gain for the defense of Israel since its enemies have +2x (= 3x - 1x) foreign aid right now and will have +0 (0x - 0x) foreign aid under a Ron Paul presidency. Simple math.

2) Remind them that Israel has hundreds of nuclear weapons and can defend itself.

3) Remind them that unconditional US military support for Israel encourages Israel sometimes to take unwise risks that are not in the best interests of the Israeli people. There is a natural logic about this that relates closely to traditional Republican opposition to the welfare state.

4) Remind them that the US interferes with Israeli policy. Tell them that Israel is stuck in policy limbo because the US will only tolerate this vague (and precarious) status in the region, in which the Israelis are neither allowed to capitulate to some of the more reasonable requests of their enemies nor allowed to annihilate them.

5) Remind them that US military activities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia create more enemies of not only the United States but also Israel. I advise that you find academic statistical studies to back up this last point.

[mainstream economist]

It starts there, and it ends there. They are always the first to pull the insult card. They think that its objectively true that Islam attacks America because all 2 billion Muslims hate us and Jews. When you tell them that 2 billion people could probably kill us if they really wanted to, they move onto their next talking point, they agitate for sharia law. Its unending, and they will justify our blood for Israel's gains like the founding fathers advocated it. Its breath-taking.

I hear you brother/sister... I blame the state of education today. I am an economics professor, and I have discovered to my chagrin that most of my students (even the "smart" ones!) do not understand basic logic. It has gotten to point where I always have to spend the first week of classes going over the basic logical reasoning and common logical fallacies to make the rest of the semester go more smoothly.

Perhaps there is some emotional button you can push to get them to see things Dr. Paul's way. It might require some creativity to think of the right way.

If this continues, give it a break for a while (to return to the cause alter) and see if you can use that time more efficiently (for example, the campaign's phone from home program).

[whippoorwill]

I just say Israel is not the 51st state of these United States. One could go childish and tell em' if they love Israel so much why don't they marry it. :-) But that would be counter productive. Don't waste your time debating non-paul supporters. Spend that time trying to find likely Paul voters.

[heavenlyboy34]

It depends on why the person(s) in question are pro-Israel. Some are rabid zionists, some are naive Christians who don't understand the bible, and there are others as well. You have to adjust your argumentation for the situation.

[Nastynate]

They usually say Isreal is a great ally! But I then go on to ask "How are they a great ally?, What have they done for the United States to make them such a great ally? They're not in Iraq with our coalition forces, they're not in Afgahnistan helping rid the world of Al Qaeda, they've stolen more US secrets than any other country in the world, they attacked a US ship in 1967, yet we give them billions of dollars a year for what? Their words that they like us? Taiwan is a better ally but we sail them down the river every chance we get, and they do a lot of good stuff for us more than Israel.", kinda worked on my brother in law, but idk if it sunk in.

[Tinnuhana]

Post #5, 3rd point is interesting.
If they are naive Christians taken in by the "have to support Israel" because God will curse those that curse Israel and bless those who bless Israel, ask them where in the Bible God ever blessed Israel for getting military help from another country.
Israel asks for military help from another country and, BAM, some prophet is ranting at the king about the coming judgement for not trusting God to take care of national defense. Either they believe Israel is in good hands, or they don't. Do they really think God can't do it without US help? This got my pastor thinking. Next, I have to show him DOug Wead's recent article on Christian warmongers.

[ppeter]

I agree, this (that of Tinnuhana in post #10) is the best approach with Protestant Evangelical people (and even though I'm not one, I too happen to believe it's the truth of the matter).

[Oddone]

To be honest... No Matter what you say in the end it comes down to two words... "You Can't"

[James Madison]

One last time.

Say it with me.

The Israel of the Bible =/= The Modern State of Israel

[Tinnuhana]

If you say so; but you aren't going to convince them of that, JM. You may, however, convince them that if they really believe the Bible is inerrant, then they have to believe it's "hands off" with military support for Israel.
Like Gunny using Fred Douglass quotes to explain liberty policy to his constituency, the argument goes to where the evangelical mind is camped out.
If it's a support for "our best friend in the middle east" then other arguments work there.

[Iseek_knowledge]

I'm an Israeli born jewish legal resident of the USA and I support the top tier GOP front runner Dr. Congressman Ron Paul


Yes that's right! I am an evil NWO Zionist who supports Ron Paul 100%.

Perry could give Israel 1 Trillion dollars a year and I could care less!

WHY?

Because $#@! Rick Perry, that's why.

And for those who want to label me as self-hating...
I was against Israel forcibly removing settlers from the occupied territories, I do believe Israel was justified in boarding the Turkish floatilla.

At the same time I believe that it's Israel's responsibility to build & maintain infrastructure, provide utility services (gas, water, electricity), and Health care to all it's citizens and those in the occupied territories.

When it comes down to it, Dr. Paul has a solution for the big picture: Ending the wars, Fixing the economy, Ending the Fed, Re-Introducing Liberties.

All the other stuff (Israel, Abortions, etc..)will fall into place AFTER we fix the big picture.

It's key to emphasize to the pro-Israeli American that the USA interferes and meddles within Israeli affairs.
This means that if Israel wants to go forth and defend herself against terrorists (Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, insert whatever organization here) the USA has the authority to actually STOP Israel from doing so.

Also emphasis on the fact that the Israeli army is one of the strongest and most advanced army's in the world with hundred of nukes, so they can stand on their own.

There is also the fact that collectively the USA gives more in foreign aid to Israel's enemies than to Israel.

That's how I go about it.

Remember not everyone is open to these ideas, there are many people who NEED to be TOLD what to believe in and what to do.
Don't waste your breath on neocons, Obama supporters are much easier to sway especially today since many of them are very unhappy with the way he has handled things.

[69360]

It's simple. Israel is fully capable of defending itself, they have a modern well equipped military and hundreds of deterrent nuclear weapons. Ron Paul would not involve the US in the affairs of Israel allowing them to defend themselves as the see fit. In fact in 1981 when Israel launched a pre-emptive strike on the Iraqi Osirik reactor, Ron Paul was I believe the only congressman to defend Israel's right to do so.

So you simply have to explain to these people that Ron Paul will stay out of the affairs of Israel, the same as he will stay out of the affairs of any other sovereign nation, allowing Israel to defend itself as it sees fit without US interference. This would place Israel in an arguably stronger position as current and former administrations have been well known to reign Israel in.

[RIPLEYMOM]

I have this discussion a lot with my Jewish friend who happens to be a big supporter of RP. I just use a lot of what RP has already said:

That because we are closely associated with Israel, we create enemies for her when we globe-trot all over the world sticking our nose where it doesn't belong. And that it's cowardly beyond belief to be so antagonistic and then escape to another continent leaving Israel in our wake. She has 300 nukes to defend herself with, and her enemies would be much more threatened if we weren't dumbing her down. It's like our foreign policy was brainstormed at recess by kindergarteners.

[GeorgiaAvenger]

God has always defended Israel and won't stop now

[Microsecessionist]

Tell the Evangelical Protestants that you can't legislate morality and that if Israel's aid is being given by non-consenters, then it's not sincere. Tell them that they're playing the role of God and that he'll deal with it, that it's not their responsibility.

As for the mainline protestants and Roman Catholics, they aren't anywhere near as much of a problem on this issue as the Evangelicals are.

Yes I realize the Santorum is Catholic, but he supports aid to Israel because he knows it hurts them and because he's anti-semite.

[eduardo89]

I just say Israel is not the 51st state of these United States. One could go childish and tell em' if they love Israel so much why don't they marry it. :-) But that would be counter productive. Don't waste your time debating non-paul supporters. Spend that time trying to find likely Paul voters.

51st state would make it subordinate to the federal government. States don't set foreign policy.

[robert68]

It's simple. Israel is fully capable of defending itself, they have a modern well equipped military and hundreds of deterrent nuclear weapons. Ron Paul would not involve the US in the affairs of Israel allowing them to defend themselves as the see fit. In fact in 1981 when Israel launched a pre-emptive strike on the Iraqi Osirik reactor, Ron Paul was I believe the only congressman to defend Israel's right to do so...

It’s not staying out the affairs of other nations to say “Israel" has a ‘right’ to attack other countries.

[69360]

It’s not staying out the affairs of other nations to say “Israel" has a ‘right’ to attack other countries.

Of course it is. They are a sovereign nation, despite some in the US considering them the 51st state. They can and should have a right to pursue whatever foreign policy suits them. Actions between Israel and other countries are not our concern.

[robert68]

Such logic means the US and every other state has a ‘right’ to attack any other country for whatever ostensible reason. That’s hardly a pro Liberty, anti imperialist, or anti aggression message.

[69360]

When you dictate what another country can and can't do, you are intervening in their affairs.

[robert68]

When you dictate what another country can and can't do, you are intervening in their affairs.

Ron Paul did the first one of those, wrt Israel.