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Thread: "If roads were private, we'd have to pay a new toll every time we got on a new road!"

  1. #1

    "If roads were private, we'd have to pay a new toll every time we got on a new road!"

    Yeah, well I just drove from Norwich, CT back to Northern Virginia today, and I didn't even switch roads and still got hit for multiple tolls,
    so STFU about private roads and tolls.

    Plus, you'd think they'd do something at least as clever as DC's metro (which itself is decidedly unclever in the first place) and let you buy a ticket in advance - NOPE, if you want to pay for the roads a second time with any kind efficiency, you need a specialized transmitter in your car!
    Otherwise, cash only!!

    (Someone really ought to tell the states that the cashless society is seriously going to mess with their toll systems.)

    And seriously - PEOPLE in the booths? Has anyone in the entire world bought a subway ticket from a person in the last 30 years?


    /Rant
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  3. #2
    To those that support privatizing roads: Is that not crony capitalism?

    Using eminent domain to acquire private property, and then selling it to private companies for their own use.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Yeah, well I just drove from Norwich, CT back to Northern Virginia today, and I didn't even switch roads and still got hit for multiple tolls,
    so STFU about private roads and tolls.
    t
    So, you think that people who use that road to New York should pay the same, even though they're only going 1/4 of the distance you went. Yeah, that totally makes sense. In fact, we should just make everybody pay for it, even if they don't use it. That's the ticket!

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaAvenger View Post
    To those that support privatizing roads: Is that not crony capitalism?

    Using eminent domain to acquire private property, and then selling it to private companies for their own use.
    Who said anything about using eminent domain?

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    In fact, we should just make everybody pay for it, even if they don't use it. That's the ticket!
    How is that not what we have today? I very carefully referred to it as "paying for the roads a second time".
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Yeah, well I just drove from Norwich, CT back to Northern Virginia today, and I didn't even switch roads and still got hit for multiple tolls,
    so STFU about private roads and tolls.

    Plus, you'd think they'd do something at least as clever as DC's metro (which itself is decidedly unclever in the first place) and let you buy a ticket in advance - NOPE, if you want to pay for the roads a second time with any kind efficiency, you need a specialized transmitter in your car!
    Otherwise, cash only!!

    (Someone really ought to tell the states that the cashless society is seriously going to mess with their toll systems.)

    And seriously - PEOPLE in the booths? Has anyone in the entire world bought a subway ticket from a person in the last 30 years?


    /Rant
    so, you saying that you want more tolls than there already are?
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    How is that not what we have today? I very carefully referred to it as "paying for the roads a second time".
    That is exactly what we have today. That was kind of my point. The only truly fair way to do it is either tolls, or gas taxes.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    so, you saying that you want more tolls than there already are?
    What I'm saying is
    1) the arguments against private road ownership are all elements of state road ownership already and can hardly be worse
    2) private road ownership would have left manned toll booths and other ridiculous 19th century innovations on the ash heap of history already
    3) apparently some RPFers aren't familiar with these arguments....
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  11. #9
    This process can easily be automated so that when you get on a road you automatically are charged a very small fee, or receive a ticket in the mail.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    What I'm saying is
    1) the arguments against private road ownership are all elements of state road ownership already and can hardly be worse
    2) private road ownership would have left manned toll booths and other ridiculous 19th century innovations on the ash heap of history already
    3) apparently some RPFers aren't familiar with these arguments....
    Indeed. You'd think Block's Privatization of Roads And Highways (read free here) has never been published reading some posts in this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Who said anything about using eminent domain?
    You think they wouldn't? Have you met our government?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    What I'm saying is
    1) the arguments against private road ownership are all elements of state road ownership already and can hardly be worse
    2) private road ownership would have left manned toll booths and other ridiculous 19th century innovations on the ash heap of history already
    3) apparently some RPFers aren't familiar with these arguments....
    Just because those arguments are wrong doesn't mean I'm not familiar.
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  15. #13
    I don't want private roads... "Wouldn't this be crony capitalism?" YES, 100%.
    The government would make the contracts to buy them so huge that only few of the uber wealthy companies could buy roads.
    These companies would bribe government officials to get the roads..

    Oh and its a private road, so they can make any rules they want, its their property.
    If they only want to allow lightweight vehicles that do less damage to the road, then that would be their prerogative right?
    What if they are some tree huggers that buy the roads, and they don't allow internal combustion engines on them?
    What if they said that there will be no pedestrians allowed on the roads, or bikes?
    What if someone buys the road your house is on, then refuses you access? Then how would you get home?

    Do you see what an issue this could become if in the hands of the wrong people??

    Imagine this.. Lets say a company buys up all the streets of Manhattan...
    To use the roads you must pay to install and maintain a gps transmitter on your vehicle to bill you for every minute your on their roads.
    Vehicles found without transmitters will be confiscated, you will be detained until police arrive.
    You will be arrested for trespass, willful destruction of property and so forth for driving on the road, and then sued.
    So your like screw it ill just walk...
    The company decides to get rid of all crosswalks, and bans pedestrians and bikes.
    They then impose a 1 billion dollar toll any taxi that is not theirs to drive on their roads.
    This would leave only their taxi and you having no choice but to take it, since you can't walk or bike.
    They could then charge you $5 to take you across the street.
    In my head I see private security on every corner making sure people do not walk on the road...
    If you do walk onto the road, then you would arrested for trespassing..
    Then you would be sued and forced to pay a lot of money to cover the corner security that was needed to catch you...


    Personally I think roads should be government controlled.
    There are more limits what the government can do, than what a private property owner can do.

    In a perfect world...
    Roads should be shared property, public property. You should "Own" the road that it under your car.
    You pay for this road with your taxes. If your car crosses onto someone road (as in under their car), you are at fault.
    Save money by getting rid of all the cops on road patrol, and get rid of all the laws on driving. Make it drive at your own risk.
    You have a right to travel, you should not need a license to drive, or have to register your vehicle with the state.
    Then the tax money that goes towards roads, could be spent on maintaining them.. not enforcing laws stupid laws.

    I mean really, think if all federal and state laws on driving were abolished how much money that would save..
    You don't need all these stupid laws.. If you break someones property, your liable.
    Do we really need to pay cops to sit on the side of roads, car running, burning fuel, waiting to write you a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt?
    Last edited by LibertyRevolution; 04-17-2012 at 04:08 PM.

  16. #14
    The reason why I support public roads, is I like to be able to travel from home to work or to wherever I plan on going without stepping foot on any property that I don't have a right to be on.
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyRevolution View Post
    I don't want private roads... "Wouldn't this be crony capitalism?" YES, 100%.
    The government would make the contracts to buy them so huge that only few of the uber wealthy companies could buy roads.
    These companies would bribe government officials to get the roads..

    Oh and its a private road, so they can make any rules they want, its their property.
    If they only want to allow lightweight vehicles that do less damage to the road, then that would be their prerogative right?
    What if they are some tree huggers that buy the roads, and they don't allow internal combustion engines on them?
    What if they said that there will be no pedestrians allowed on the roads, or bikes?
    What if someone buys the road your house is on, then refuses you access? Then how would you get home?

    Do you see what an issue this could become if in the hands of the wrong people??

    Imagine this.. Lets say a company buys up all the streets of Manhattan...
    To use the roads you must pay to install and maintain a gps transmitter on your vehicle to bill you for every minute your on their roads.
    Vehicles found without transmitters will be confiscated, you will be detained until police arrive.
    You will be arrested for trespass, willful destruction of property and so forth for driving on the road, and then sued.
    So your like screw it ill just walk...
    The company decides to get rid of all crosswalks, and bans pedestrians and bikes.
    They then impose a 1 billion dollar toll any taxi that is not theirs to drive on their roads.
    This would leave only their taxi and you having no choice but to take it, since you can't walk or bike.
    They could then charge you $5 to take you across the street.
    In my head I see private security on every corner making sure people do not walk on the road...
    If you do walk onto the road, then you would arrested for trespassing..
    Then you would be sued and forced to pay a lot of money to cover the corner security that was needed to catch you...
    To use the roads you must pay to install and maintain a gps transmitter on your vehicle.

    Personally I think roads should be government controlled.
    There are more limits what the government can do, than what a private property owner can do.

    In a perfect world...
    Roads should be shared property, public property. You should "Own" the road that it under your car.
    You pay for this road with your taxes. If your car crosses onto someone road (as in under their car), you are at fault.
    Save money by getting rid of all the cops on road patrol, and get rid of all the laws on driving. Make it drive at your own risk.
    You have a right to travel, you should not need a license to drive, or have to register your vehicle with the state.
    Then the tax money that goes towards roads, could be spent on maintaining them.. not enforcing laws stupid laws.

    I mean really, think if all federal and state laws on driving were abolished how much money that would save..
    You don't need all these stupid laws.. If you break someones property, your liable.
    Do we really need to pay cops to sit on the side of roads, car running, burning fuel, waiting to write you a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt?
    The only thing worse than crony capitalism is something that is completely government controlled.

    Just because you privatize something, doesn't mean it has to be corrupt. It can be done with the right leaders. Even if it was corrupt, it can't be any worse than what we have now. Come to Connecticut and see how well government controlled roads work. They do tons of construction and haven't made progress on anything in the past 20 years at least.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Who said anything about using eminent domain?
    Well, my granddad's farm was cut in half by the government for a four-lane highway that is hardly used.

    I would rather than government keep the land instead of them giving it to some private company.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaAvenger View Post
    Well, my granddad's farm was cut in half by the government for a four-lane highway that is hardly used.

    I would rather than government keep the land instead of them giving it to some private company.
    Well, if the govt. owned road is such a good idea, then maybe the govt. should own the farm too???

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    2) private road ownership would have left manned toll booths and other ridiculous 19th century innovations on the ash heap of history already
    I'm guessing you don't know wtf you are talking about. machines break down, let's see how happy you would be with no manned toll booths when the machine breaks or wont take your dollar and traffic is already a dozen deep behind you or in front of you.

    sometimes low-tech is still best.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Len Larson View Post
    Well, if the govt. owned road is such a good idea, then maybe the govt. should own the farm too???
    Or maybe the neighbor should own it?

    Shoot, if somebody is going to steal from me I would prefer all benefit rather than one.

    Another thing, I got a driveway allowance on my portion(granddad is dead), after fighting the gov. tooth and nail. But, there was no charge. I expect a private company would cost an incredible fee and rip people off for driveways on their own land.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    The reason why I support public roads, is I like to be able to travel from home to work or to wherever I plan on going without stepping foot on any property that I don't have a right to be on.
    the government acquired much of that property by seizing it from landowners who where forced to sell it, so in a sense, you are most likely driving on stolen property.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaAvenger View Post
    Or maybe the neighbor should own it?
    And another neighbor might could own the road.

    Shoot, if somebody is going to steal from me I would prefer all benefit rather than one.
    Why support theft in the first place? And who decides how many have to benefit to qualify as "all"?

    Another thing, I got a driveway allowance on my portion(granddad is dead), after fighting the gov. tooth and nail. But, there was no charge. I expect a private company would cost an incredible fee and rip people off for driveways on their own land.
    Food is a public good too, after all everyone has to eat. Do you rip people off for the food they purchase from your farm? I'm sure you don't, and for exactly the same reasons that prevent other private property owners from ripping off their customers. The customers will buy from the vendor who best supplies their needs.

    All of the failings of private property posted in this thread have in fact really been about the failures of govt. coercion and govt. monopoly.
    Last edited by Len Larson; 04-17-2012 at 10:34 PM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I'm guessing you don't know wtf you are talking about. machines break down, let's see how happy you would be with no manned toll booths when the machine breaks or wont take your dollar and traffic is already a dozen deep behind you or in front of you.

    sometimes low-tech is still best.
    Illinois has tons of toll booths that aren't staffed. If the machine is broken, you need to mail your toll in. Not really a problem. And the EZ pass stuff makes it even less painless.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by aravoth View Post
    the government acquired much of that property by seizing it from landowners who where forced to sell it, so in a sense, you are most likely driving on stolen property.
    If you live on "property" anywhere in the world you live on stolen property
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  27. #24
    WE ALREADY DO!!!!!!!!!
    HOW DUMB ARE THESE "PEOPLE"



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  29. #25
    It is funny how people are so worried about how a private road owner will abuse them and prefer government. But just give it a little thought - where are you more welcome, a privately owned store or the post office? Where are you more likely to be disarmed and filmed, a restaurant or the DMV? Where are you more likely to be stopped and detained by law enforcement, driving on a government road or walking around the mall? What is the closest we have to a national identification card? The driver's license required by government to use government roads.

    Government ownership of roads has been the number one springboard for systematic identification, surveillance, and data collection of the public. On the other hand, the private sector typically couldn't give a rats ass who you are as long as your money is good and you don't tear up the place. But heaven help us if the roads were private. Lol.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  30. #26
    Addressing the point that turning over the roads to private companies might represent crony capitalism:

    This is a very valid concern, certainly, and I don't think many libertarians argue for the kind of typical privatization we see today, where that is standard operating procedure. I personally would favor the approach of treating the state property (the roads in this case) as unowned, and granting ownership based on homesteading (whoever is actually mixing their labor with the road can then lay claim to it). This is also applicable to other things such as universities (in which case the students and faculty would essentially assume ownership), state-run facilities, corporations who derive their income largely through the state, etc. etc.

    Selling off the roads to private companies creates more problems in the long-run, and I think it is something to avoid.
    Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    It is funny how people are so worried about how a private road owner will abuse them and prefer government. But just give it a little thought - where are you more welcome, a privately owned store or the post office? Where are you more likely to be disarmed and filmed, a restaurant or the DMV? Where are you more likely to be stopped and detained by law enforcement, driving on a government road or walking around the mall? What is the closest we have to a national identification card? The driver's license required by government to use government roads.

    Government ownership of roads has been the number one springboard for systematic identification, surveillance, and data collection of the public. On the other hand, the private sector typically couldn't give a rats ass who you are as long as your money is good and you don't tear up the place. But heaven help us if the roads were private. Lol.
    This^^ Not to mention government "sponsorship" of roads has caused them to multiply much faster than they can be effectively maintained. Private owners of roads would make decisions rationally or have the property liquidated and a better owner would take over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothbardian Girl View Post
    Addressing the point that turning over the roads to private companies might represent crony capitalism:

    This is a very valid concern, certainly, and I don't think many libertarians argue for the kind of typical privatization we see today, where that is standard operating procedure. I personally would favor the approach of treating the state property (the roads in this case) as unowned, and granting ownership based on homesteading (whoever is actually mixing their labor with the road can then lay claim to it). This is also applicable to other things such as universities (in which case the students and faculty would essentially assume ownership), state-run facilities, corporations who derive their income largely through the state, etc. etc.

    Selling off the roads to private companies creates more problems in the long-run, and I think it is something to avoid
    .
    Says who? Did you read the book I linked to earlier in the thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by tttppp View Post
    The only thing worse than crony capitalism is something that is completely government controlled.

    Just because you privatize something, doesn't mean it has to be corrupt. It can be done with the right leaders. Even if it was corrupt, it can't be any worse than what we have now. Come to Connecticut and see how well government controlled roads work. They do tons of construction and haven't made progress on anything in the past 20 years at least.
    I live in CT... You must be talking about the highways... My town roads are well maintained and repaved every few years..
    Even the highways projects are pretty much completed.. what exactly are you talking about?
    Anyways highways jobs are slow because of union labor, but that is whole other topic.

    It could be very worse in the hands of a private owner..I know my post was long so I will recap..
    Its a private road, so they can make any rules they want, its their property.
    Examples:
    What if they only want to allowed lightweight vehicles that do less damage to the road?
    What If some tree huggers that buy the roads, then ban cars with internal combustion engine from driving on it?
    What if they banned pedestrians and bikes on all roads, not just highways, no more walking for you if there ain't no sidewalk.
    What if GM bought all the roads and then only allowed GM cars on them?????

    Do you understand what would happen to the price of goods if a private company bought the roads and banned big trucks?
    Big trucks are what wrecks roads, If I owned a road I would ban all trucks, all roads would be no truck roads.
    Imagine if all goods had to be transported by van. Think of how that fleet of vans, and fuel, would increase prices?

    Let me put it this way:
    You basically advocating to going back to working at the factory, and shopping at the factory store, and living in the factory housing.
    Your not going to be able to be like screw it ill just take the not toll road.. They will all be toll roads, all owned by a few big companies.
    Roads are not the kind of thing where you will have a big choice of options not to use it, it is not like there are going to be competing roads..
    It is not exactly easy to buy up strait tracks of land through bunch of peoples property, 1 hold out means no road for you buddy.
    Unless of course your an advocate for using eminent domain to take property and sell it to a business.. Kelo v. City of New London

    EDIT:
    Now before you go saying something like there would be rules on the property owner saying that he had to allow all vehicles or whatnot..
    That would be fascism.. Government controlled private property.. Not a private road.
    Last edited by LibertyRevolution; 04-18-2012 at 12:54 PM.

  34. #30
    It's kind of funny that people are using eminent domain as an argument against private roads. Obviously in a free society eminent domain would not exist.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
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    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

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