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Thread: Should there be debtors' prisons?

  1. #1

    Should there be debtors' prisons?

    In a free society that respects and protects ALL human rights including those of private property and contracts, should prison be a possibility for those who rack up debt and then default? If so, why? If not, why?
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  3. #2
    No, because not repaying debt is a nonviolent offense.
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  4. #3
    If one is in jail how can they pay back their debt, would they not be doing the exact opposite by adding more debt to the government?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    No, because not repaying debt is a nonviolent offense.
    Quote Originally Posted by ItsTime View Post
    If one is in jail how can they pay back their debt, would they not be doing the exact opposite by adding more debt to the government?
    Exactly. Cages are for beasts.

    It's reasonable to expect that the individual should be forced to pay some kind of restitution, but I don't think it's reasonable to cage them like an animal for a non-violent crime.
    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods

  6. #5
    if you take someone's money, promise to pay it back, and then fail to do so...is that not stealing?
    Those Who Do Not Move, Do Not Notice Their Chains.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by teacherone View Post
    if you take someone's money, promise to pay it back, and then fail to do so...is that not stealing?
    That's what I would imagine

  8. #7
    This is why we have civil courts and criminal courts. Violation of a contract can and should result in the liquidation of all you own, but in order to incarcerate someone for a "crime" there must be "criminal intent". If you fraudulently entered the contract with intent to steal that's one thing, if you simply went broke, well that's a civil matter and there was no criminal intent.
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by teacherone View Post
    if you take someone's money, promise to pay it back, and then fail to do so...is that not stealing?
    not necessarily. It might be if there was no intention or attempt to pay it back,, but not if it were due to circumstances. (illness, accident, or market circumstances).
    There is risk in lending. This is one of them.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    This is why we have civil courts and criminal courts. Violation of a contract can and should result in the liquidation of all you own, but in order to incarcerate someone for a "crime" there must be "criminal intent". If you fraudulently entered the contract with intent to steal that's one thing, if you simply went broke, well that's a civil matter and there was no criminal intent.
    seems difficult to prove.... could you extend this to other objects besides money?

    you lease a car...don't return it...

    rent a DVD... don't return it...
    Those Who Do Not Move, Do Not Notice Their Chains.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by teacherone View Post
    if you take someone's money, promise to pay it back, and then fail to do so...is that not stealing?
    If it is borrowed with the permission of the lender, I would think that would count more as "breach of contract" than outright theft. This would make it a civil matter rather than criminal.

    EDIT: That's assuming, of course, that there was no premeditated intent to defraud the lender on the part of the person borrowing the money.
    Last edited by KCIndy; 08-30-2011 at 02:21 PM.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ClayTrainor View Post
    Exactly. Cages are for beasts.

    It's reasonable to expect that the individual should be forced to pay some kind of restitution, but I don't think it's reasonable to cage them like an animal for a non-violent crime.
    stealing can be done non - violently.

    it's usually punished with incarceration (given a big enough amount).
    Those Who Do Not Move, Do Not Notice Their Chains.

  14. #12
    Are you implying that we don't have them already?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Are you implying that we don't have them already?
    We sure do. Just ask the IRS.

  16. #14
    No. In the bible people who owed debt would pay it off with hard labor, or relinquishing valuables.The bible also speaks several times about NEVER entering contracts which place you in debt. Debt use to be avoided at all costs. Never owe a debt to anyone and not pay it off before the same day ended.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by teacherone View Post
    stealing can be done non - violently.

    it's usually punished with incarceration (given a big enough amount).
    But it shouldn't be unless it is fraud. Debtors could work the debt off, given the chance, even if it is not timely. It is much tougher to pay it back if the debtor is sitting in prison.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by teacherone View Post
    seems difficult to prove.... could you extend this to other objects besides money?

    you lease a car...don't return it...

    rent a DVD... don't return it...
    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    If it is borrowed with the permission of the lender, I would think that would count more as "breach of contract" than outright theft. This would make it a civil matter rather than criminal.

    EDIT: That's assuming, of course, that there was no premeditated intent to defraud the lender on the part of the person borrowing the money.
    Sure it can be difficult to prove, that's why we have the judicial process. You could try to bring criminal charges against someone, say for your car lease example, and if criminal intent can't be proved, then you still have the civil option to try to get some money out of the defendant. Just look at the OJ case.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6



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  20. #17
    Robert Morris belonged in prison, but debtor's prisons are counter intuitive. That said, Robert Morris should've probably had to do labor for his creditors for the rest of his life.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainAmerica View Post
    No. In the bible people who owed debt would pay it off with hard labor, or relinquishing valuables.The bible also speaks several times about NEVER entering contracts which place you in debt. Debt use to be avoided at all costs. Never owe a debt to anyone and not pay it off before the same day ended.
    There were also the years of Jubilee, when debts were forgiven and slaves freed.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by teacherone View Post
    if you take someone's money, promise to pay it back, and then fail to do so...is that not stealing?
    If you voluntarily loan somebody money and they intend to pay you back, but then they can't pay you back, isn't it your fault for loaning it to them?

    And more specifically, no, it is NOT stealing, you gave them the money.
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  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by teacherone View Post
    seems difficult to prove.... could you extend this to other objects besides money?

    you lease a car...don't return it...

    rent a DVD... don't return it...
    Ya that's going to fall under contracts..

    You can try and collect, if not, then don't sell stuff to that customer. Report them to credit agencies so other sellers know not to give them credit. This will deter customers from trying to screw you over, and other companies who benefit from this will help you determine which customers might be better to deal with.
    Last edited by dannno; 08-30-2011 at 04:07 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by teacherone View Post
    stealing can be done non - violently.

    it's usually punished with incarceration (given a big enough amount).
    Why would you loan money to someone who might steal from you?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  25. #22
    Who will pay you your money if the thief is in prison? The government?

  26. #23
    No, because in my view a 'promise' is ultimately not a valid contract. A valid contract involves the transfer of title of property. In a 'promise', no transfer of title/property, explicit nor implicit, takes place.

    And by not fulfilling this promise - you are not 'stealing'. Of course, it would be above and beyond in your best interest to keep your promise(s), whatever they are, including to pay back loans, etc. If you do not - your credit, honor, and ability for others to trust in your word and capability to pay, dwindles or is perhaps obliterated - this greatly weakens your position and leverage in the market, and limits your options.

    A society that understands and recognizes this would only engage in lending with people who have established a reputation for paying it back, and those who do not will be punished by the market and various forms of commercial ostracism will takes place (reputation, 'credit ratings', reports, history, etc). They will have to manage risk appropriately, as it should be, to maintain profitability and solvency.

    Any enforcement against such 'promise' theory of contracts implies the ability to 'own people'. But is impossible to 'own someone else', and to attempt to do so or violate people through such enforcement is immoral.

    To further illustrate this, another type of 'promise' contract is a 'marriage'.

    To further understand this point, check out Rothbard here:

    Property Rights and the Theory of Contracts...
    http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/nineteen.asp

    Others in this thread have also rightly pointed out the practical issue with debtor prisons.
    Last edited by Sentient Void; 08-30-2011 at 07:35 PM.
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  27. #24
    no.
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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Are you implying that we don't have them already?
    Are you implying we have a free society?
    “I will be as harsh as truth, and uncompromising as justice... I am in earnest, I will not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retreat a single inch, and I will be heard.” ~ William Lloyd Garrison

    Quote Originally Posted by TGGRV View Post
    Conza, why do you even bother? lol.
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  30. #26
    A LIBERTARIAN THEORY OF CONTRACT: TITLE TRANSFER, BINDING PROMISES, AND INALIENABILITY by Kinsella

    Quote Originally Posted by Theft and Debtors’ Prison, pg 22
    Theft and Debtors’ Prison

    "Theft and Debtors’ Prison Rothbard and Evers view failure to pay a debt or other agreed upon future title transfer as “implicit theft.” Writes Rothbard:


    The debtor who refuses to pay his debt has stolen the property of the creditor. If the debtor is able to pay but conceals his assets, then his clear act of theft is compounded by fraud. But even if the defaulting debtor is not able to pay, he has still stolen the property of the creditor by not making his agreed-upon delivery of the creditor’s property. 39


    Rothbard is partly correct here. If, on the due date, the debtor is able to pay, then refusal to pay is theft. This is because the title to some of the money held by the debtor transferred to the creditor on the due date. At that moment, the debtor is in possession of the creditor’s property. Failure to turn it over is tantamount to theft or trespass—it is a use of the creditor’s property without his permission. But Rothbard’s view that it is theft “even if the defaulting debtor is not able to pay” is unjustified. Rothbard senses that this position could justify debtors’ prison, but tries to avoid this result by arguing that imprisoning a defaulting debtor goes “far beyond proportional punishment” and, thus, is “excessive.”40 But why? If failure to pay a debt is “implicit theft,” why can’t the “thief” be treated as such and punished?

    The solution is to recognize that the defaulting debtor may not be punished simply because he is not a thief at all. If the debtor is bankrupt, there is no property to steal. The debtor is not “refusing” to turn over “the” money owed. There is no money to be turned over. How can there be theft of a non-existent thing? As discussed above, all future title transfers are necessarily conditioned on the thing’s existing at the specified transfer time. Failure to transfer something that does not exist cannot be theft; rather, one of the conditions for the title transfer has simply not been satisfied.41

    Of course, contracts would normally contain default or explicit ancillary title transfers to address the unavoidable possibility of future default. For instance, a default title transfer that is ancillary to the main title transfer might be that the debtor also transfers title to $1100 plus accrued interest at any time after the original due date, if he is unable to repay on the due date, if and when he gets a paycheck or otherwise comes into money. Such ancillary provisions can be explicit in written contracts, or be assumed as default provisions in accordance with custom and context."
    /thread
    Last edited by Conza88; 08-30-2011 at 11:22 PM.
    “I will be as harsh as truth, and uncompromising as justice... I am in earnest, I will not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retreat a single inch, and I will be heard.” ~ William Lloyd Garrison

    Quote Originally Posted by TGGRV View Post
    Conza, why do you even bother? lol.
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  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    In a free society that respects and protects ALL human rights including those of private property and contracts, should prison be a possibility for those who rack up debt and then default? If so, why? If not, why?
    If someone lends you money, they are also accepting the risk that you might default and be unable to pay. It's part of the cost of doing business, and it's up to the lender to do what they can to minimize those losses (without the use of force or fraud, of course) -- such as by securing title to collateral. In the normal case, a borrower should therefore not go to prison if they default.

    However, if a borrower commits fraud by lying to the lender about facts material to the lender's decision to lend, then they have committed a crime, and they should be prosecuted and possibly imprisoned for that act -- not for defaulting, but for fraud.

    The fraud argument also applies on the lender's side: if a lender lies about the terms of the loan or other issues that are material to the borrower's decision to borrow, then they have committed a crime.
    Last edited by AceNZ; 08-30-2011 at 11:32 PM.
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  32. #28
    I would disagree with Kinsella there. Something can't be 'stolen' if it is not owned by another party. Whether the money is there and should be credited to the lender I would say is irrelevant. A mere 'promise' is not a valid contract. How can i 'steal' something that i both justly acquired, is in my name as my just property, and am in possession of? Because i 'promised' it to someone doesnt mean im stealing when i dont pony up - though i may be rightly socially and commercially ostracized for not maintaining my word.

    Valid contracts involve actual transfers of title and property. Repossession of the item loaned for and the taking of collateral, along with the various forms of commercial ostracism has been the legitimate way markets have handled accountability systems for managing risk and limiting exposure to losses, obliterating the unjust need for 'debtor prisons'.

    As for Rothbard, he seems to be extremely inconsistent at times. Sometimes, he'll advocate for debtor prisons but then not for inconsistent reasons as mentioned above, then other times he (IMO rightly) says a 'promise' is not a valid contract which by implication obliterates debtor prisons.

    That, sir - is the /thread ;-)
    Last edited by Sentient Void; 08-31-2011 at 04:35 AM.
    "If men are good, then they need no rulers. If men are bad, then governments of men, composed of men, will also be bad - and probably worse, due to the State's amplification of coercive power." - Ozarkia

    "Big Brother is watching. So are we." - WikiLeaks

    Laissez-nous faire, laissez-nous passer. Le monde va de lui meme.

  33. #29
    Predatory lending is a sad reality. This is an old argument and we have answered it already. NO. We should forgive ALL debts after 7 years.

  34. #30
    “I will be as harsh as truth, and uncompromising as justice... I am in earnest, I will not equivocate, I will not excuse, I will not retreat a single inch, and I will be heard.” ~ William Lloyd Garrison

    Quote Originally Posted by TGGRV View Post
    Conza, why do you even bother? lol.
    Worthy Threads:

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