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Thread: Ron Paul and the Self-Hating ‘Libertarians’

  1. #1

    Ron Paul and the Self-Hating ‘Libertarians’

    Karen Kwiatkowski wrote a magnificent blog exposing Reason magazine as critics, not supporters, of libertarianism. I would now like to add to her so far list of one "libertarian" who trashes Ron Paul. My nomination to be second on this list is Steven Molyneux. Full disclosure: his speech attacking Dr. Paul goes on for almost an hour, and I didn’t have the zitzfleisch (patience) to listen to all of it. But, in the first 10 minutes or so he criticizes Congressman Paul for, yes, wait for it, favoring the Constitution! Molyneux also correctly allows that if President Paul takes office, we "slaves" will have far fewer beatings, but claims that this is an insufficient reason for supporting him. I did indeed, until recently listening to this rant, have some respect for Molyneux (unlike for Reason magazine, which has long ago turned against libertarianism). He has authored some very persuasive material on anarcho-capitalism. But, evidently, Molyneux is one of those free market anarchists who does not really "hate the state" (see Murray Rothbard on this) certainly not enough to support one of the greatest enemies of statism the world has ever known.

    http://lewrockwell.com/block/block180.html



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  3. #2
    Steven is an anarchist. He doesn't support voting. I don't put him in the same category has Reason magazine. Reason is full of beltway libertarians. I'm not surprised that Steven doesn't support Ron Paul. If you're against the state why would you vote for someone to lead the state? even if they want to shrink its' size? Steven believes the way you achieve anarchy is through family means not voting means. I'm not surprised by this at all.
    -Ancap-

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyw24 View Post
    Karen Kwiatkowski wrote a magnificent blog exposing Reason magazine as critics, not supporters, of libertarianism. I would now like to add to her so far list of one "libertarian" who trashes Ron Paul.
    Just a note: Karen Kwiatkowski is running as a Republican for Congress.


    Karen Kwiatkowski for Congress | Virginia, 6th District

    Website:
    http://www.karenkforcongress.com/

    Facebook:
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Karen-...547640?sk=info


    ----

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  5. #4
    I totally understand why Molyneux doesn't advocate participating in the electoral system. He's rather uncompromising with his anarchist principles. I'll have to see if he literally bad-mouthed Paul, but I doubt it.

    Molyneux's debate with Badnarik a few years ago should clarify. He basically said that you don't want a minarchy, because there will be a huge amount of prosperity and material progress, and that minimal state will inevitably grow back into an oppressive large imperial state, apprehending the fruits of the minarchy's prosperity and the accompanying technological advances to better enslave its citizens and pillage foreigners. Minarchy is like a battery charger for a future superstate.

    If he's right, then Rove, Kristol, Cheney, et al should be ferociously campaigning for a Paul presidency. On the other hand, they probably want short-term payoff, and the process Molyneux's talking about could take another 150-200 years, like it did the first time in America.

    Ron Paul is not running as an anarchist, but he and Lew Rockwell have praised "principled liberals" in the past. Why not continue to praise the principled anarchist?

    Block's article seems knee-jerk, hurriedly written and exasperated, as if he didn't know where Molyneux was coming from in the first place. Molyneux pretty much said the same thing in 2008. And Block probably never got to Molyneux's main point if he bailed half-way through the podcast. Molyneux typically takes a long, rambling time to make a point.

  6. #5
    Generally, Block has great books and editorials, and I really respect him, but this is just ridiculous. Molyneux has provided ample and solid explanation of his lack of support for Dr. Paul, all of which is virtually perfectly principled in nature, and almost none of which has to do with the man himself - he simply opposes any approach that pretends there's even a shred of legitimacy to the state's existence. How can you make an argument that the very existence of the state is immoral, as Block does, and then bash someone for consistently applying the implications of that into his way of effecting positive change and opposing the state? And to equate Reason and Molyneux is nothing short of willful ignorance.

    I admire both Ron Paul and Molyneux, albeit for slightly different reasons. But the main reason I want Ron Paul to do well is not to take over the state, but to enjoy the platform for education associated with having the spotlight. If you consistently oppose the state, you can't argue that using state violence to right the wrongs committed by the state in times past is valid. I'm very disappointed in Block for this 'analysis'. Hopefully he will remember that, first and foremost, this is an intellectual revolution, not a political one.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bwlibertyman View Post
    Steven is an anarchist. He doesn't support voting. I don't put him in the same category has Reason magazine. Reason is full of beltway libertarians. I'm not surprised that Steven doesn't support Ron Paul. If you're against the state why would you vote for someone to lead the state? even if they want to shrink its' size? Steven believes the way you achieve anarchy is through family means not voting means. I'm not surprised by this at all.
    I'm against the state, and I support Ron Paul, because he wants to stop the state from abusing me.

    But I somewhat understand where molneux is coming from. He doesn't deserve to be put in the same caragory with reason.
    Last edited by tremendoustie; 08-19-2011 at 08:46 AM.
    “If you're on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive.” -CS Lewis

    The use of force to impose morality is itself immoral, and generosity with others' money is still theft.

    If our society were a forum, congress would be the illiterate troll that somehow got a hold of the only ban hammer.

  8. #7
    Non-voters can support Ron Paul.
    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  9. #8
    I think it's acceptable to support Ron Paul as anarchist because, as he said in the Motorhome Diaries interview, he would allow anarchists to secede.

    Also, it's not fair to generalize about the Reason staff. Brian Doherty has always been enthusiastic about Ron Paul. I've never seen Jesse Walker bash Ron Paul either.



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  11. #9
    Some of these Reason and Cato guys want to remain relevant to the libertarian side of the conservative movement, so they don't want to invest too much in Ron Paul because if he loses they feel they'll be somewhat discredited. They're cowards.

    That's really quite different from an anarchist who has taken an ideological stand against all manifestations of the State.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by suoulfrepus View Post
    I think it's acceptable to support Ron Paul as anarchist because, as he said in the Motorhome Diaries interview, he would allow anarchists to secede.
    That's the key right there, my friend. The complete right to secede at every level. This is the inevitable result of truly supporting the ideal that the only legitimate government is by the consent of the governed. Consent of the governed does not mean consent of the representatives of 51% of the fraction of the governed eligible to vote, who actually registered, and who actually voted in a particular election. It means each and every individual consenting to the jursidiction of each government that seeks it and having the right to seceed when they don't consent. To the extent Ron Paul supports this right of secession, that IS anarchy in the best sense and no anarchist has grounds to complain, unless they want to FORCE others to live without government. Hahahaha!
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by suoulfrepus View Post
    I think it's acceptable to support Ron Paul as anarchist because, as he said in the Motorhome Diaries interview, he would allow anarchists to secede.
    As an anarchist, I think it's not only acceptable - but IMPORTANT - to support Ron Paul,
    because he was the guy who took the rock hammer and put that first crack in my wall.
    No, he does not support anarchocapitalism. But he IS the gateway drug.
    If it worked for me, it will work for others.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  14. #12
    Well, some anarchists may feel accelerationism is a faster path to anarchy. People might find themselves satisfied with a minarchist government.

  15. #13
    What the hell is Block doing? This article is based on a podcast from 4 years ago? We DO NOT need infighting right now.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    As an anarchist, I think it's not only acceptable - but IMPORTANT - to support Ron Paul,
    because he was the guy who took the rock hammer and put that first crack in my wall.
    No, he does not support anarchocapitalism. But he IS the gateway drug.
    If it worked for me, it will work for others.
    Glad to see a voice of reason here on this.

    IMO, many anarchists, including Stefan molyneux and others, are absolutely irrational and crankish on the issue of voting and Ron Paul - and IMO are even destructive to the cause of liberty by discouraging people to vote for and/or support Ron Paul. I've actually written on this recently, to expose this ridiculous line of reasoning.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/entry.p...ts-Should-Vote.
    Last edited by Sentient Void; 08-19-2011 at 08:03 PM.
    "If men are good, then they need no rulers. If men are bad, then governments of men, composed of men, will also be bad - and probably worse, due to the State's amplification of coercive power." - Ozarkia

    "Big Brother is watching. So are we." - WikiLeaks

    Laissez-nous faire, laissez-nous passer. Le monde va de lui meme.

  17. #15
    Wow that was a poor attack on Molyneux. He could at least try to put some effort into it.
    "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."-Étienne de La Boétie

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Vessol View Post
    Wow that was a poor attack on Molyneux. He could at least try to put some effort into it.
    Stefan's response...

    "One of the great victories of the state, is that the word "Anarchy" terrifies people but, the word "State" does not" - Tom Woods



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentient Void View Post
    Glad to see a voice of reason here on this.

    IMO, many anarchists, including Stefan molyneux and others, are absolutely irrational and crankish on the issue of voting and Ron Paul - and IMO are even destructive to the cause of liberty by discouraging people to vote for and/or support Ron Paul. I actually blogged on this recently, to expose this ridiculous line of reasoning.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/entry.p...ts-Should-Vote.
    Voting itself is not the problem. It's the consequences of voting. If the consequences of voters' actions were limited to themselves, it would be no big deal. However, voters, by their nature, shift the burden/cost of their decisions onto everyone. That said, I would vote for RP if he were on my ballot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  21. #18
    I can't believe he actually said that he only watched the video for 10 minutes and then goes on to attack him.

    Then his points as to why Stefan is opposed to Ron Paul has nothing to do with the reason: The Non-Aggression Principle.
    "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."-Étienne de La Boétie

  22. #19
    Ron Paul is basically an anarchist that wants to shrink the government to give us as much liberty as possible eventually bringing us to maximum (100%) liberty.

    Just watch this video:



    Ron Paul is so ***** awesome!

    I'm an anarchist and I'll vote for Ron Paul any day of the week.

    I totally disagree with Stefan on this.
    Last edited by matt0611; 08-19-2011 at 08:47 PM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Voting itself is not the problem. It's the consequences of voting. If the consequences of voters' actions were limited to themselves, it would be no big deal. However, voters, by their nature, shift the burden/cost of their decisions onto everyone. That said, I would vote for RP if he were on my ballot.
    If I'm rich and I buy tons of stock in a company - the price for everyone naturally goes up. My actions have 'affected everybody' - does this mean it's illegitimate, or aggression, etc?

    Glad you would vote for him at least, though. I just don't buy the argument that because it affects everyone it's some form of aggression or illegitimate or a violation of the NAP or something. I think we can all see it's relevance to the analogy above.

    Voting in a poll or 'the polls' is a suggestion, it's speech, nothing more. It may be a suggestion box for slaves, but hey - Now we're back to the whole 'nice slavemaster' (who wants to free the slaves) vs the 'brutally oppressive serial rapist slavemaster'.
    "If men are good, then they need no rulers. If men are bad, then governments of men, composed of men, will also be bad - and probably worse, due to the State's amplification of coercive power." - Ozarkia

    "Big Brother is watching. So are we." - WikiLeaks

    Laissez-nous faire, laissez-nous passer. Le monde va de lui meme.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentient Void View Post
    If I'm rich and I buy tons of stock in a company - the price for everyone naturally goes up. My actions have 'affected everybody' - does this mean it's illegitimate, or aggression, etc?

    Glad you would vote for him at least, though. I just don't buy the argument that because it affects everyone it's some form of aggression or illegitimate or a violation of the NAP or something. I think we can all see it's relevance to the analogy above.

    Voting in a poll or 'the polls' is a suggestion, it's speech, nothing more. It may be a suggestion box for slaves, but hey - Now we're back to the whole 'nice slavemaster' (who wants to free the slaves) vs the 'brutally oppressive serial rapist slavemaster'.
    No, your purchase isn't wrong just because it affects everyone-that is a natural fluctuation-like the old cliche about "a butterfly in japan flutters its wings and a windstorm occurs in the mid-atlantic" or however that goes. Even your very existence technically affects everyone because you use resources to survive. It's also voluntary. It actually benefits everyone because it maintains a good balance of supply/demand.(opportunity costs and the various laws of economics and nature will always exist and cannot be repealed) Political action, on the other hand (especially State action) is deliberate, stupid, involuntary and distorts the natural order of things (in a bad way). The good thing about a RP figure using political action is that he tends to wield it responsibly and rationally. So, I do think that an anarchist can vote in this case, justifying it as an act of self-defense against State predation and tyranny. Plus, at this time the vast majority of people in this (and most) society are not yet moral enough to handle true freedom. Sowing the seeds for that with RP is not a bad thing.
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 08-19-2011 at 10:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  25. #22

    Karen Kwiatkowski

    This is important to me because she is from my congressional district. Can anyone point me to her trashing Ron Paul? She appears to be a supporter.

    http://lewrockwell.com/kwiatkowski/kwiatkowski272.html

    But there is another reason for the noticeable government and mainstream media silence on Ron Paul’s repeated success, and his ever-growing popularity. Ron Paul can win, and if he achieved the GOP nomination he would be our next president. Ron Paul can cut short what will otherwise be an eight-year term of Obama, and end what has been a frantic 12 year federal spending spree that will ultimately lead to serious default, renegotiation and writing down of major categories of debt, and an inflation-ravaged entitlement collapse at home. Gold, guns and survival skills, private security forces, underground food networks, and an explosion in decentralized alternate energies – along with a collapse of governing structures, services, and public schools in many rural or otherwise under populated areas – all this is coming. Leaders who understand how this future was constructed, leaders who engender trust and confidence, and leaders who can wisely and quickly oversee the federal retrenchment that must and will occur – such leaders are few and far between.

    Ron Paul is such a leader. We see the field – it contains the sadly overwhelmed Obama, as arrogant, as fascist-friendly and as warlike as FDR, and all the strident Keynesians clawing to the microphone, calling themselves Republicans, and Ron Paul. Of all the men or women we could choose to gently deliver this country through its very difficult rebirth into a new constitutionalism, a new liberty, and a new era of prosperity – Ron Paul is the people’s choice. If the people were truly free to choose, they would choose Ron Paul. This is the idea that so terrifies the parasitical political class, and its media handmaids. They cannot bear to say his name. But you can trust that they are closely watching the Ron Paul revolution unfold across the country, as they nervously feed on the decimated and rotting carcass of a once proud Republic.

  26. #23
    bobby's saying she's criticizing Reason (and with good reason), not Ron Paul.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by kylejack View Post
    Well, some anarchists may feel accelerationism is a faster path to anarchy. People might find themselves satisfied with a minarchist government.
    First mention of accelerationism on RPF.



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  29. #25
    ron paul's biggest weaknesses when running for office were simple as this :

    Ron did not aggressively defend gun ownership,
    Ron did not aggressively defend the idea of a border. Because of that, Ron Paul was viewed as weak, I have to admit, his ideology is great, he has great ideas...but the execution is as weak as Jefferson re-evaluating the need for a federal army to repel invasion, and having marines go after the somali pirates...Ron Paul is a great thinker,and statesman, but he isnt the type of man we need to stand up against communist leftists..because he wouldn't do it with equal force. who here is surprised to see how exposed the left has shown themselves as communists in recent years?
    It was too weird to live, and too rare to die - hunter s. thompson .
    ..this is the darkest timeline..



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