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I'm none too sure of if Senator Goldwater would consider that an honor....Originally Posted by robertwerden
"Democracy, too, is a religion. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." - H.L. Mencken
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"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt
It would be an honor if Ron Paul won the presidency and cut the military budget, forcing it to be canceled
(No, I'm not the Starcraft guy)
Accept certain inalienable truths: Prices will rise. Politicians will philander. You, too, will get old.
And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young, prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.
I don't think he would. They're going to name a hideously expensive aircraft carrier after him that is essentially a tactical relic in modern warfare for the express purpose of making a bunch of military contractors rich and compensating for the Pentagon's non-existent genitalia?
Last edited by RM918; 08-15-2011 at 06:50 AM.
When I saw the tread title I didn't notice the period, which made a difference in how I interpreted it. I thought, "That's weird."
Not really as big of surprise as most here make it out to be. Goldwater was a follower in Mahan sea power theory (note: this was before Mahan was twisted in support of NWO by Adm. Kelso in 1992). The primary purpose is the maintenance of sea lines of communication for maritime commerce, or denial thereof. Projection of power ashore is post BG and post Kelso. I see no way that Mahan nor BG would support the current Sea Power 21 governing strategy.
XNN
"They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance
Goldwater would have cut it.
I didn't go there but i was in the same district when i was in high school.
Honestly learning about him when i was in high school was part of the reason why i leaned towards the liberty movement once i was in college.
You can believe whatever you want, however history shows that BG favored nuclear carriers as the nations big stick. You can look at his open letter to McGovern, his multiple votes in the Senate on the issue, his alliance with Adm. Rickover, his willingness to fly co-pilot to a CV in the Gulf of Tonkin (even 43 didn't have the cajones to take the seat and walk that walk.)
XNN
"They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance
me too
That ^ BG was not shy about defending the interests of the United States. But first, there had to be an interest worth defending.
Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.
Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.
Man I wish I was around during the Goldwater campaign.
Go Gophs! Go Twins! Go Vikes!
Don't Tread on Me
I can't argue with that. Certainly, I believe that current foreign policy is indefensible. However this is a gun control issue: the gun is a tool and doesn't jump up and shoot people on its own. Studying and practicing defensive pistol-craft is not the same as terrorizing folks with a gun.
I think that BG was wise enough to recognize the difference. If you support the Mahan-ian view of defending sea lanes of communication for the free flow of maritime commerce, then how does a nation guarantee passage of its shipping through places like the Bosphorus or the Straits of Malacca against an aggressor? One could rely on land-based aircraft, but that necessitates overseas bases and entangling alliances. I think that would lead back down the path of our current foreign policy.
XNN
"They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance
True enough, but that presupposes something that is not true: that you are protecting the free flow of our nation's maritime commerce.
The US does not have, for all intents and purposes, a blue water merchant fleet anymore. (which is why, among many reasons, that a multiple front war, with a real foe, would be impossible to prosecute anymore, but that's another discussion)
We are protecting the shipping lanes for Chinese, Greek and European shipping, while they bring in tons and tons of cheap foreign goods to undercut our domestic producers.
Last edited by Anti Federalist; 08-16-2011 at 06:37 AM.
It's a gun control issue in more ways than just that.
The entire sea is, AFAIK, an object lesson in the failure of gun control.
Seamen are, if I'm not mistaken, generally not able to carry even small arms on board ship - correct me if I'm wrong, AF, but even though they may have them on the high seas, as soon as they land in a place hostile to gun ownership it's off to the rape cage.
This is also the case for any self-defense a merchant vessel may carry as well, and probably worse. There's no way a vessel can carry weapons capable of defending itself. Therefore the "cops" (ie navy) have to do it for them.
I'm 100% convinced that gun ownership is the only way to guarantee your own personal safety on land, and so I'm pretty much totally convinced that putting defensive pieces on ships is the only way to guarantee personal safety at sea, too. Just like how the only thing cops can do on land is show up after the fact and clean up, I don't see how the USN can do otherwise.
Well, I certainly think I answered above, and the US is certainly in a position to ram that down everyone else's throats (and it would probably go down better than a bunch of new CVNs).I think that BG was wise enough to recognize the difference. If you support the Mahan-ian view of defending sea lanes of communication for the free flow of maritime commerce, then how does a nation guarantee passage of its shipping through places like the Bosphorus or the Straits of Malacca against an aggressor? One could rely on land-based aircraft, but that necessitates overseas bases and entangling alliances. I think that would lead back down the path of our current foreign policy.
However, as stated earlier carriers are outdated now.
It takes weeks for them to get anywhere, and once there the path of destruction they leave is really wide.
Take a page from Iraq, I say. Seriously - how much could our own Project Babylon really cost?
Stick a supergun on top of a mountain, design bullets that are actually guided missiles that get shot into orbit and then guide themselves with pinpoint accuracy where they need to go.
Force projected anywhere on earth in hours, not weeks. For probably less than the cost of just the USS Barry Goldwater.
There are no crimes against people.
There are only crimes against the state.
And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.
There is a reason why off-shoring companies do not set up shop in lawless, third world countries irregardless of how cheap the labor cost is. In the mid 20th century, the United States ranked first in merchant tonnage and flagged vessels. Our policies of on taxation and burdensome regulations is singularly responsible for the crash of merchant shipping. I'm sure our foreign policy that has led to the crappy handling of piracy in the Gulf of Aden and Indonesia doesn't help inspire confidence. Bring back strong pro-mercantile policies, with a sane foreign strategy and open sea lanes and I think there would be a strong base for a resurgent merchant fleet.
XNN
"They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance
Commercial vessels generally prohibit their crew from carrying weapons. Liability issues from lawyers, and difficulty in engaging in commerce due to varying prohibitions from port to port. Those that do have a weapons officer and a secure arms lockers. Crew are required to be trained and maintain proficiency (again, due to liability.) From a legal standpoint, prohibition is moot in international waters.
You can state whatever you want, however you didn't support it. Circumference of the Earth=approx 24k miles at the equator. Fifteen days of steaming by a CVN is about half that. Their path of destruction is directly proportional to our foreign policy.
Ballistic weapons (guns, missles) are great for fixed points on land. Not so great for undetected targets at sea. Figs, cruisers, and subs have all kinds of detection limitations both in size and range, as opposed to an E2C that can sortie about. In addition to the benefit over guns and missiles in the capacity to detect and identify, ships have the unique ability to be recalled as well as a lifespan of 50+ years. It will be interesting to see if the equivalent cost of a half dozen B2 hold up.
XNN
Last edited by XNavyNuke; 08-16-2011 at 07:04 PM.
"They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance
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