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Thread: How Ron Paul could smack down Iran critics

  1. #1

    How Ron Paul could smack down Iran critics

    Ron needs to quit playing defense and go on offense. It's not enough to say "the Soviet Union was worse than Iran." If he could point out the following documented facts it would shut the naysayer up for good or at least make them back-peddle.

    1) In 2003 Iran was the only Muslim country to help us fight and remove the Taliban from power.

    See: Jane's Defense Weekly India joins anti-Taliban coalition. "India is believed to have joined Russia, the USA and Iran in a concerted front against Afghanistan's Taliban regime.

    See also: PBS Frontline - Showdown with Iran : A slap in the face from America

    2) In 2003 Iran's previous president Mohammed Khatami sent through back channels an offer to end support for Hamas and Hezbollah, end its nuclear program and end hostility with Israel in exchange for security guarantees. The Bush administration never even responded to the fax.

    See: PBS Frontline The Grand Bargain Fax - A missed opportunity?

    See Also: NY Times Iran's proposal for a grand bargain

    Lastly, I'm glad Dr. Paul keeps bringing up the coup. That's important to bring out. But he should add that the coup wasn't even for the benefit of American economic interests. It was done for the benefit of British Petroleum. (Yes the same BP responsible for the Gulf oil spill). I've heard half-wits on talk radio try to explain away the coup by saying "we had a right to get our oil". As dumb as that is (do they think China has a right to get its debt?) it's not even accurate. Dr. Paul needs to preemptively cut such stupid arguments off at the knees by fleshing out the history a wee bit more. But good job smacking down Pawlenty overall.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #2
    Iran isn't the issue, although it is made the issue. The issue is the shape of OUR foreign policy. And Ron had a statement on his website they were asking about where essentially Ron doesn't say 'it's ok if they have the bomb' (which is how some are spinning it) but that our warped intervention foreign policy adds incentive to countries WANTING the bomb because only then do we treat them with any respect for their sovereignty. It isn't a suggestion we want people who don't like us to have the bomb, but that our interventionism creates the precise problems we intervene to prevent, and it is a vicious cycle and not a very effective tactic, as well as being expensive. It is one of very many points he made, but some are clearly spinning it out of context -- typically in stories that don't allow comments so you can't correct them.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear. -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    Iran isn't the issue, although it is made the issue. The issue is the shape of OUR foreign policy. And Ron had a statement on his website they were asking about where essentially Ron doesn't say 'it's ok if they have the bomb' (which is how some are spinning it) but that our warped intervention foreign policy adds incentive to countries WANTING the bomb because only then do we treat them with any respect for their sovereignty. It isn't a suggestion we want people who don't like us to have the bomb, but that our interventionism creates the precise problems we intervene to prevent, and it is a vicious cycle and not a very effective tactic, as well as being expensive. It is one of very many points he made, but some are clearly spinning it out of context -- typically in stories that don't allow comments so you can't correct them.
    The issue is that the average Joe doesn't have enough facts to intelligently even think about Iran. No "spinning" of Ron's comments is even necessary. Most people have been programmed by the media and their lack of self-education about foreign affairs to believe that Iran + bomb = instant destruction of Israel and that the only reason Iran might want the bomb is to destroy Israel. People need to know about Iran's recent history of trying to cooperate with the U.S. against terrorism. The fact that Iran was rebuffed when they tried to cooperate both on the terrorism question and the WMD question explains why Iran might feel they need a bomb to be safe as opposed to needing a bomb to try to destroy Israel.

    If we continue to talk about foreign policy in vague generalities we will lose. It's that simple. Dr. Paul realizes this to some extent when he keeps bringing up the coup. That's a great point. But he needs to bring up other points like the two I mentioned. Trying to explain the big picture on foreign policy without bringing up all of the supporting facts is like trying to teach calculus to a 6 year old who barely knows how to count. We still have a large percentage of republicans that are so ignorant on foreign policy that they believe Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #4
    Something like this could have been said:
    "1st off I don't want a sixth war, I will not bang the war drum like all my opponents; this will not solve the problem. Sanctions will not solve the problem; they are essential an act of war. Many of my colleagues need to take a history lesson on how Reagan dealt w/ the soviets. We also need a new policy in how we can live in peace w/ countries in the middle east... We need an open dialogue & trade and this will eliminat many of our stereotypes that each country has about eachother."
    I ask unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtMcGirt View Post
    Something like this could have been said:
    "1st off I don't want a sixth war, I will not bang the war drum like all my opponents; this will not solve the problem. Sanctions will not solve the problem; they are essential an act of war. Many of my colleagues need to take a history lesson on how Reagan dealt w/ the soviets. We also need a new policy in how we can live in peace w/ countries in the middle east... We need an open dialogue & trade and this will eliminat many of our stereotypes that each country has about eachother."
    Yeah. That would be good too. Don't give the enemy anything to sink his teeth into. He should have either left out any speculation as to why Iran might want a bomb (like you did), or explained better Iran's thinking.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  7. #6
    i just posted something that i think could help
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...39#post3458239
    it shows how interventionist policies done by ANY country dont work without hitting the sore spot of saying all our problems are all our fault.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtMcGirt View Post
    Something like this could have been said:
    "1st off I don't want a sixth war, I will not bang the war drum like all my opponents; this will not solve the problem. Sanctions will not solve the problem; they are essential an act of war. Many of my colleagues need to take a history lesson on how Reagan dealt w/ the soviets. We also need a new policy in how we can live in peace w/ countries in the middle east... We need an open dialogue & trade and this will eliminat many of our stereotypes that each country has about eachother."
    This is basically what he said in the debate. He hit on sanctions being an act of war, the US (mentioned Reagan, too) dealing with the Soviets, and opening trade/travel/dialogue with all countries, including Cuba and Iran. Also said he doesn't want a sixth war and decried the shrieking from opponents as war propaganda.
    Last edited by Feeding the Abscess; 08-12-2011 at 09:01 AM.

  9. #8
    Israel could wipe Iran off the map if they were threatened and countries liked us didn't dictate to them how to handle their affairs.



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  11. #9

  12. #10
    In all history there is no war which was not hatched by the governments, the governments alone, independent of the interests of the people, to whom war is always pernicious even when successful.

    The greater the state, the more wrong and cruel its patriotism, and the greater is the sum of suffering upon which its power is founded.

    Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold.

    - Leo Tolstoy

  13. #11
    Ron Paul needs to keep reminding people that we're losing our freedoms at home while we're trying to promote freedom abroad. Then he needs to ask people a very sincere and powerful question:

    Do you want freedom elsewhere in the world more than you want it here in the U.S.A.? Do you want to keep sending American troops to die for the freedom of people who will never truly appreciate 'freedom' [not that we've given them any] so long as the sacrifice is not their own to make?
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Elliot's The Hollow Men

  14. #12
    jmdrake, please clean out your older PMs - new ones cannot get through.

  15. #13
    Ron could ask: "Were the people that wanted to end the undeclared war in Vietnam "isolationists?"

  16. #14
    It seems that this country is okay with killing innocent Iranian scientists:

    GOP Debate on Foreign Policy: All About Iran

    Former Gov. Tim Pawlenty went hard and fast on the question of Iran, not just supporting the notion of attacking the nation but praising the “good works” of the US government in assassinating Iranian scientists and the “good work” of creating the Stuxnet computer virus, which threatens to do massive damage to industrial computers far beyond Iran.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ExPatPaki View Post
    It seems that this country is okay with killing innocent Iranian scientists:

    GOP Debate on Foreign Policy: All About Iran
    Former Gov. Tim Pawlenty went hard and fast on the question of Iran, not just supporting the notion of attacking the nation but praising the “good works” of the US government in assassinating Iranian scientists and the “good work” of creating the Stuxnet computer virus, which threatens to do massive damage to industrial computers far beyond Iran.
    I was scratching my head when he mentioned that, do you really want to take credit for those activities?
    I ask unanimous consent to revise and extend my remarks.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtMcGirt View Post
    I was scratching my head when he mentioned that, do you really want to take credit for those activities?
    US support for terrorism against Iran is part of American political culture. So yes, if you want to impress the Americans filled with blood lust for Iranians, then you would want to take credit for it.

    The US supports the terrorist group, Jundullah against Iran:

    Top Sunni rebel on Iran death row says US ordered attacks

    And US politicians get money from the MEK, a violent Islamist-Marxist group, which has attacked both Iranians and Americans:

    Iranian terrorist group has close US allies

    Something strange is happening in Washington. In August, the Obama administration is expected to announce whether it will keep the Mujahedin-e Khalq (MEK), an exiled Iranian group that killed American civilians and officials in the 1970s, on its foreign terrorist organisations (FTO) list.

    Known for its cult-like behavior, the MEK (also known as the People's Mujahedin of Iran, PMOI or MKO) fought alongside Saddam Hussein's regime against its own country during the bloody Iran-Iraq war. This is one reason why it has almost no Iranian support, even if it refers to itself as the "most popular resistance group inside Iran" on its official website. It does, however, enjoy the backing of several US heavyweights with high national security credentials.
    Last edited by ExPatPaki; 08-12-2011 at 01:42 PM.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzu View Post
    jmdrake, please clean out your older PMs - new ones cannot get through.
    Will do. And I got your visitor message and I will follow up on that. Thanks.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #18
    I got into a "debate" if you will on another website I'm on regarding RP and Iran.

    Here was our exchange. I thought I made some good points:

    Quote Originally Posted by Other Guy
    help me out here too fellow RPers, what's he saying here about Iran? I can't agree when he says Iran hasn't attacked anyone, they are a sponsor of terrorism, they pump money and guns into Iraq to kill Americans, they sponsor Islamic terrorists. I don't think they would hesitate to start WWIII if they got their hands on a nuke. Am I wrong here?
    Quote Originally Posted by MJU1983
    None of us know that for sure. Remember, from the first Persian Gulf War, to the Nation Building in Afghanistan, to the War in Iraq - all were based on war propaganda, fear mongering, and lies. Yes Afghanistan was in response to 9/11 but guess what? That was 10 years ago and I don't think we need 100,000 troops in Afghanistan blowing it up, rebuilding it and protecting their Opium/Heroin trade at our soliders expense (lives) and our expense (money). Why do we still have 50,000 troops in Iraq? If we weren't Iraq, would our soldiers be dying?

    We overthrew Irans government, their democratically elected government - WE OVERTHREW IT. We installed a dictator who was our puppet from 1953 - 1979. I'd say their grievance is a little more valid than our grievance over who is a bigger threat. Their country poses no actual or immanent threat to the United States of America. If we didn't give their dictator so much ammo to use against us for his own propaganda campaign, I bet their people would have already risen up and overthrown him.

    Talk about WWIII. Countries the United States is at War with:
    1- Iraq
    2- Afghanistan
    3- Pakistan
    4- Yemen
    5- Libya
    6- Somalia
    7- Syria

    How long is Irans list? Who are they bombing with drones? Which country is their army, navy, air force, or marines in? Do they even have an air force or anything else militarily that can match the United States? Does anyone?

    Who is a threat to us on this list? List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Quote Originally Posted by Other Guy
    I'm aware of that history with Iran, and I agree we shouldn't still be in Iraq & Afghanistan, but you really don't think a nuclear armed Iran is a threat? They are led by hardline Islamic radicals that will stop at no end to ensure Islam & Sharia rule. Martyrdom is their friend, that's why I think they are an exception and would not hesitate to threaten using a nuke, and its a threat that would need to be taken seriously. We don't want the terrorists possessing nukes, why should we let Iran have them?
    Quote Originally Posted by MJU1983
    No, I don't think they are a threat. They have a crazy leader but the people of Iran don't have the same grievance. We have a crazy war monger too, it doesn't mean the people of the United States are. What you are saying sounds like propaganda to me. It's what Neocons and war-hawks want you to believe. It's what the military industrial complex wants you to believe.

    The United States is the only Country in the world who has ever used a 'nuclear' weapon of mass destruction on another country or people. Honestly, we are the last people to lecture someone else on what they should do to protect their own state sovereignty, especially when it comes to obtaining nuclear weapons (which they deny).

    The Chinese have them, the Pakistani's have them, the Indians have them, the Israeli's have them. Russia has them... Hell North Korea has them.

    List of states with nuclear weapons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Look at the below and put yourself in Irans shoes. Who looks like the aggressor? I can empathize with them and their people to see through our own governments propaganda that we are causing the tensions. Iran is about as big of threat as Iraq was. The same lies were used for that war. NUKES! WMD's! Saddam is Hitler! Give me a break, I'm not 7 years old.

    ******* What IS similar between Iraq and Iran and even Libya now - OPEC/ Oil and them not wanting US Dollars for it. ********
    ^ Think about it ^




    Quote Originally Posted by Other Guy
    I've "liked" a lot of your posts, and we usually appear to share the same beliefs, and I think we are close here, but I can't agree with the idea that a nuclear armed Iran isn't a threat. Yes they do have a crazy leader, but what does the opinions of their people matter? Its their leaders who repeatedly tell the world they are bent on the destruction of Israel and the US. Obviously their military capabilites are severely lacking, but they do appear to be progressing closer & closer to possessing a long range nuclear missile. I don't see how we can turn a blind eye to that as a threat. Are they not crazy enough to launch it knowing full well the ramifications would mean certain doom for their country and possibly the whole world? Not sure we can put it past them
    Quote Originally Posted by MJU1983
    I don't think Iran would stand a chance against the Israelis. Iran can talk all they want, it's mostly our media hyping that nonsense.

    A big part of my position is that I don't believe our government and its lies. Their domestic policies are failures and their foreign policies are failures. They don't turn into angles when talking about foreign policy, same people remember...lying sociopaths.

    We need a strong defense. We don't need to be policeman of the world or starting preemptive wars of aggression.

    Everything that is put out to get us riled up about Iran is purely motivated by Money, and Oil. I'm serious, look it up - the people that we call our "enemies" all have similar habits of refusing to sell oil in US Dollars (Iraq, Iran, Libya, Venezuela). None of them have ever attacked us...

    We have satellites (that we know about) that are good enough to call heads or tails on a quarter you flip on to your driveway, right now. Also ones that can penetrate to listen on conversations. We should know their every move if they are really such a threat. I bet their desire to harm us would be lowered if we stayed our usual 5,000 - 7,500 miles away. Some submarines and satellites can do wonders.

    Our military men and women support Ron Paul, more than every GOP candidate and even more than their boss - President Obama. They know what's up more than us keyboard comandos. They know our policies are bull$#@!.
    Quote Originally Posted by Other Guy
    Preaching to the choir here bud, especially the part about needing a strong defense & not policing the world. What I'm having a hard time with is your view that everything the public has been told about Iran & its nuclear ambitions/threat is false & a lie. Sure I would love to see us implement a missile defense system, but Obama won't let that happen, and unfortunately that only protects against one delivery method. So until we can secure our borders from the threat of a WMD attack we can't just sit by and let anyone & everyone build up nuclear weapons.
    Quote Originally Posted by Other Guy
    I never said we should get into an unending war with them. I'm just saying I don't think its a scenario we can just sit back & let unravel. I won't pretend to know what the best solution would be, I know we've attempted sactions, but they don't appear to be the kind that actually hurt their government and prevent them from succeeding in their nuclear ambitions. But if we can't stop their efforts peacefully then I think force can't be ruled out. I seriously don't want another war, I agree that Iraq was unjustified, been there & Afghanistan WAY too long, shouldn't be bombing Libya, Yemen, Pakistan, etc etc. But I don't see how we can ignore the threat of a nuclear armed Iran.
    Quote Originally Posted by MJU1983
    The same arguments were given for Iraq. You can either stop believing the lies and refuse to go along with it or not. It's your choice.

    Sanctions only hurt the people of the Country. Remember the 500,000 dead Iraqi children because of our sanctions on them? I don't want that kind of blood on my hands...
    Quote Originally Posted by Other Guy
    Agreed sanctions hurt the people, the idea being they revolt and force regime change. Again, sanctions probably isn't the best solution, just threw that out there, but there has to be something better than sitting back & letting Iran build a nuke.
    Quote Originally Posted by MJU1983
    Think about it on a smaller scale. At this point, Iran hasn't committed war crimes or atrocities remotely close to what we have over the past 30 years. If you are going to say they are causing our causalities in Iraq, well, you said that we shouldn't be there and shouldn't have been there in the first place. Apply the broad "that's war" excuse we use to explain the civilians we murder...

    The arguments you are making remind me of the same arguments I hear from anti-gun people on why I shouldn't be allowed to own a gun or have my CCW permit. I'm not a criminal, I don't have a record, and I want those items for self defense.

    If Iran poses no threat to us, which they don't and won't, probably ever...then we should mind our own business and worry about our own country - that's literally falling apart.
    How have you helped spread the message of Liberty, Peace, & Prosperity today?
    "Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth." -George Washington

  22. #19
    There is no evidence whatsoever that Iran has provided arms that have killed US troops in Iraq. None.

    Good points there MJU1983.

    You can also mention US support for terrorist groups, MEK and Jundullah against Iranian civilians.
    Last edited by ExPatPaki; 08-12-2011 at 03:42 PM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MJU1983 View Post
    I got into a "debate" if you will on another website I'm on regarding RP and Iran.

    Here was our exchange. I thought I made some good points:
    Quote Originally Posted by ExPatPaki View Post
    There is no evidence whatsoever that Iran has provided arms that have killed US troops in Iraq. None.

    Good points there MJU1983.

    You can also mention US support for terrorist groups, MEK and Jundullah against Iranian civilians.
    ExPatPaki, excellent points! Especially about the MEK. It floors me that neocons and dumbed downed conservatives throw around the made up term "Islamo fascism" and totally ignore our support for Islamo marxism. And you're right. The "statistics" about Iranians killing Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan are just flat made up crap.

    MJU1983: Please use the info I gave in this thread about Iranian support for the overthrow of the Taliban and the "grand bargain" fax in your debate and let us know how that goes. I think as long as we concede the idea that Iran is this big bad irrational bogeyman we'll never win this fight over foreign policy. We have to make the case, which is provable base on the actual facts, that Iran is a rational actor and it is doing what it is doing out of legitimate fear of "regime change" being instigated by Washington. Hell, just look at what's happening in Libya. Qaddafi did everything the U.S. and the rest of the west demanded of him in terms of WMDs and renouncing terrorism, and look where it's ultimately got him?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  24. #21
    This is how you can win the argument

    "If we invade iran we might as well invade NK as well, then we would be fighting 8 wars.

    Let me repeat that while the ridiculousness settles in. Then we would be fighting 8 wars."

  25. #22

  26. #23
    bump
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #24
    Bump since Iran is back in the news.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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