Is that anything like Shi`ahs & Sunnis?Originally Posted by tfelice
.
Now you're messing with me hehe. What I mean is people who study the scriptures and people who have the scriptures interpreted for them.
The truth hurts! I think that's why some have trouble with Ron Paul. He just tells it like it is.
Yes! I have to remind myself of that.
Forgot to ask - When I discuss the war and why it's wrong to be there, some people respond that it doesn't matter why we went in. It only matters that we are there now and we just can't "cut and run." What about the poor Iraqi people who we promised to help? Do you want us to just run out on them? Do you want that on your conscience?
I can't say that I disagree with them entirely. I know the war is a complete fraud, but we've made a huge mess out of those peoples lives over there. I know Ron Paul says that if we were to leave, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will make things worse for them. But what if it does? What if the insurgents take over the government? Will we at least do something humanitarily? It is afterall, out fault.
Hittgirl -
I'm a Christian as well, and in conversations with church members I've learned two things:
1) Attacking or going on any type of offensive will get you responses like "You sound like a liberal" - so that's a no-win situation.
2) Now Christians seem so eager NOT TO LOSE, just tell them they need to vote for Ron when he gets the nomination so HILLARY WON'T GET ELECTED. They usually go for that.
But in all seriousness, the thing that I have been thinking about the most is:
"If Bill O'Reilly or Mark Levin said the Bible was a bunch of lies, would you believe them? No, of course not, because you know the FACTS. So why do you automatically assume that everything the newscaster says is completely honest? You do realize that Rupert Murdoch has donated to Hillary Clinton's campaign, right?"
One other thing is that when I was growing up my Pastor always said "Chew up the meat and spit out the bones" and I think many Christians are doing the opposite.. Just letting Hannity & Co. fill their brains with crap without even a thought of "Is this the truth?"
Pray for them - you'll quickly find out who the thinkers are vs. the sheep.
Go get 'em.
We should take our marching orders from the Constitution!
I'm finding alot of my fellow christians don't even want to know what's going on. It amazes me how much they use scripture to be idle bench warmers. They also make the mistake of taking past elections and being synical about all politics, when this election is special becasue we have a righteous man running that can make real change. They are not discerning the difference! It grieves me that the sheeple are so sheeple! I wish they would be thinking christians.
I was so encouraged to meet with my local ronpaul meetup.com group for the first time the other day. it was a breath of fresh air to finally meet Christian brethren who veleived what i beleived. For too long, i;ve been in this one chat room of dumbed down christians who just want to live idle and care free and can't discern this election.
So what I'm now concentrating on is strategic spread of Ron Paul's name.... Name recognition is key. We are gonna start flyering out churches, gun shows, etc , busy highway exit signs, and just do mass spread of Ron's name. We have till Feb 5th here in TN, only 3 months away for most states, so hope we all give it the best push we got to win the vote!
Hey who says hucklebees cant be useful.
I just found this GREAT RESOURCE through Citizenlink. THIS IS FANTASTIC!!
GUIDELINES for POLITICAL ACTIVITIES by CHURCHES and PASTORS. This is put out by the James Madison Center for Free Speech, funded by a grant from the Alliance Defense Fund.
So much of the evangelical support for Huck has been hamstrung by the lack of accurate information and the fear of the law and the IRS. THIS DOCUMENT ADDRESSES THESE ISSUES, specifically as it pertains to pastors and churches.
http://www.citizenlink.org/images/iv...whatslegal.pdf
(Note: I contacted Mr. Bopp today, and he confirmed that the March 2006 version is updated and current.)
This is a must read for all 501(c)(3) organizations. There was a small table highlighting a few points, but I'm sorry, I couldn't get it to load on this page. But, here are just a few examples:
ACTIVITY
Endorse a canidate for political office? CHURCH: NO PASTOR: Yes
Allow candidates to speak on church
premises? CHURCH: Yes PASTOR: N/A
Rent list of church members to candidate
for fundraising purposes (at fair market
value)? CHURCH: Yes PASTOR: N/A
Distribute Voter Guides CHURCH: Yes PASTOR: Yes
Engage in voter registration, voter identification, get out the votet, voter education ? CHURCH: Yes PASTOR: Yes
(sorry, the examples are a bit cramped & confusing..)
Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to load the table on the page, but if you are specifically interested in it, I do have it posted on my blog: http://christiansforhuckabeemobilize...ourselves.html
But the table in it's entirety, is also included in the body of the entire 11 page article at the Citizenlink link above.
Friends, this is a great tool to help inform and encourage pastors, churches and non-profit organizations to get involved, to let their voices be heard, and to help mobilize the Evangelical Christian vote.For those interested, here is the first page of the document, "GUIDELINES for POLITICAL ACTIVITIES by CHURCHES and PASTORS."
LET'S CIRCULATE THIS!!!
James Madison Center for Free Speech
GUIDELINES for March 2006
POLITICAL ACTIVITIES
by CHURCHES AND PASTORS
_________________________
by James Bopp, Jr. General Counsel
James Madison Center for Free Speech
in association with the Alliance Defense Fund
As the 2006 elections approach, and various groups begin again their intimidation tactics in an effort to silence churches and pastors about the great social and moral issues of our time,
churches and pastors need clear guidelines for permissible political activities. In response to that need, the James Madison Center for Free Speech and the Alliance Defense Fund are providing these guidelines3 and will respond free of charge to inquiries by churches, pastors, and priests on permissible political activities through informal e-mails, telephone advice and legal opinion letters.* The Alliance Defense Fund has provided a grant to the James Madison Center for Free Speech for this purpose.
These guidelines summarize the requirements of the Federal Election Campaign Act and
James Madison Center for Free Speech, 1 South 6th Street, Terre Haute, IN 47807, voice
812-232-2434, fax 812-235-3685, www.jamesmadisoncenter.org e-mail
madisoncenter@aol.com.
Alliance Defense Fund, 15333 North Prima Road, Suite 165, Scottsdale, AZ 85260,
www.alliancedefensefund.org.
The James Madison Center for Free Speech encourages you to copy and share these
guidelines with anyone who may benefit from their use.
*Requests for a formal opinion letter involving substantial legal research are not covered
by the grant. If a request falls into this category, the requesting pastor or priest will be notified assoon as possible so that appropriate arrangements may be made to answer this request.Here' more info from Liberty Counsel:
http://www.lc.org/resources/pastors_...s_politics.htm
http://lc.org/index.cfm?PID=15257
Michigan - Congressional District 1
I think it is best to focus on people who have been turned away by politics and pull them back into the party with Ron Paul. You can also use Rudy as an example that the neo-cons are really just ex-democrats, in Rudys case literally.
I could use a few comments on the article I am crafting:
Why won’t Christian leaders endorse a candidate?
As the whole debate among the evangelical Christian leaders raged, a theme began to unfold; the Christian leadership will not endorse a candidate. They choose to sit on the sidelines, throw mud, complain, but do nothing about the situation. They stamp their feet like spoiled children, have their secret meetings, and say, “If Giuliani is the republican candidate, we will go third party.” Why will they not get behind a strong traditional Christian candidate, even though he is not one of the so-called “front-runners”. Is it because they cannot do so because of 501C(3) laws? No! It is perfectly legal for a pastor to personally endorse a candidate, but the church cannot. However, not all pastors are unwilling to back the only candidate that personifies all of the conservative Christian values, including Constantine's Just War Theory. If the Just War theory had been applied we would not have entered the Iraq War. Pastor Chuck Baldwin fully supports Dr. Ron Paul, writes articles supporting traditional values, and speaks at Ron Paul events. I encourage the rest of the Christian leadership across the nation to follow suit before it is too late to do anything but complain about the results in 2008.
Michigan - Congressional District 1
We need a great Ron Paul video on Godtube. I've yet to see one. Maybe I should go buy a dummies guide to youtube production and make one this week...
Last edited by Alabama Supporter; 11-04-2007 at 10:41 PM.
Money talks.
One of the strongest suits that Dr. Paul holds is his view on the corrupt monetary policy. We cannot continue to borrow and print money and not expect consequences. None of the other candidates will talk about this or deal with it. I think they are content to spend the futures of our children and grandchildren with no intention of paying it back, which I've convinced at least one Christian friend, to be immoral.
Remind your Christian friends of Proverbs 22:7
The rich rules over the poor,
And the borrower becomes the lender's slave.
If we're not careful, we'll all be worshipping Confucious!
Great, call someone who opposes the fact that Ron Paul is Evangelical Pro-Lifer a single issue voter, but use it to attract the largest group of halfwits this side of Pakistan.
The "stubborn" Theocrats of the Fascist Republican party are not going to waste their vote on anyone who values diversity and differences of opinion. They don't want to vote anymore, and they actively fight to get their rights taken away.
The concept of a "Christian Voter" is the most damaging evidence that this country is run by a majority of Cromwellian troglodytes loyal to the type of government that His Highness, George Bush II, employs.
I'm curious, because this type of thing always gets me thinking..
When the non-believers, gays, heathens, homeless, scientists, and academic professors are gone, who are you going to turn against?
Oh yea, this stuff...
Christian voters. pfft.
Try convincing them to think. Remind them that faith is a personal issue, and should be left that way. Don't resort to a tactic that people on here readily insult others for using...
If you make this upcoming presidency about values, we lose perspective on what matters. Our economy should be the focus, and this is why, as an atheist, I am as close as I am to supporting, and actively bringing support, from the undesirables of your precious families values-driven society.
If I can convince hundreds of thousands of people to vote for Ron Paul among atheists, scientists, gays, pagans, deists, Satanists, and professors, than you people shouldn't have such a damn hard time convincing the "single issue" zombie genuflects over.
"The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."
-Bertrand Russell
I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law
I'm not sure how this helps win over Christian voters, but whatever.
Michigan - Congressional District 1
There's that special concept again.
Yea, seriously, whatever. I don't care about Christian voters. If they vote for another dictator, than this country voted itself out of a democracy, and who are we to argue with any of the founder's warnings about that...?
"The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."
-Bertrand Russell
I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law
I don't follow your logic. If you want to focus on a group of voters (especially a large group) to try and win them over for Ron Paul, is there something wrong with that?
Michigan - Congressional District 1
I know what you are saying here....I used to do the same thing. I was SO PASSIONATE, that I would come across as angry and "CRAZY", and like you said, people thinking that I thought I was better than them. Then my wonderful wife spoke with me, after I had a heated debate/argument with a friend over a political matter. She told me that it wasn't what I was saying, but how I was saying it. Instead of trying to convince them Iraq is wrong, ask them questions. Ask them if they know how much the United States is in debt, how much are we borrowing on a daily basis, etc. By asking questions, you will open the minds of the people and have them openly listen to you. Also, the best thing to do is simply apologize to your friend. Say, "I know I came across as angry and "holier than thou", I didn't mean to, this is something I'm just passionate about. Please forgive me." Then it's up to your friend.
Yes, blame it on the Christian voters. Because when the war started, the majority of the population wasn't in support of the war or anything. It was only the magical, 30% neocons. Please.
When it was started it was marketed and sold through the media.
As usual they did a good job of selling lies.
People are waking up.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
I have a great Ron Paul flyer for churches. PM me your email to get it..... !
carpe diem....seize this day
That's irrelevant. People blaming it on the neocons, then side-stepped the issue by saying "media told us lies!" is just an excuse. It was an obvious fluke from the beginning. If people get easily fooled by "media," it's still the people's fault.
Kade has some obvious issues, too. Christians can't think? I don't see much thinking coming from you, considering you call Bush a dictator. Last I checked, dictators don't get voted in by an electoral college, then voted in again. Not to mention the fact that our system of democracy has this thing called checks and balances. The legislative branch can overrule presidential vetos with enough of a consensus (2/3). Pelosi-led democratic Congress just recently overruled a veto on spending for levees and post-Katrina reconstruction. So no, Bush isn't a dictator, just an incompetent president. He didn't somehow nullify the powers of the legislative and judiciary branch in the span of two terms.
Tired of these lame ad hominems, especially coming from somebody with a whole lot of rhetoric and not a lot of knowledge.
I apppreciated an earlier poster's quotes from the Pope as a point of reference for Catholic voters. I am less convinced however that St. Augustine is a winnable arguement as it can be argued [perhaps not well] that the invasion of Iraq was designed to liberate the Iraqis from tyranny.
The problem I face when discussing Ron Paul after mass on a Sunday or around the community is that in my area, 19 miles north of ground zero, the concept of Deo et Patria has become heavily loaded in favor of the latter. It is fair to describe the predominant point of view as "kill them all, let God sort them out".
My approach, which I admit has mixed sucess, is to point out that Ron Paul is not anti-military, in fact he is a Vietnam era veteran, he is not a "blame America" guy as Rudy tried to paint him but rather a thoughtful man who studies the issues and tries to understand the why so that we can avoid another attack.
Finally, I argue that even if you assume that everything we were told prior to the invasion was absolutely correct, and that Sadam was violating U.N. resolutions left right and center, the question comes down to is Cofffey Annan's prestige worth the two new headstones in the graveyard behind our church.
It is the media portrayal of Congressman Paul that is the biggest problem I run into.
I would direct stubborn Christians to the man who said these pesky words.....
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God"
And remind them that the Lord is the Prince of Peace, and Peace is not a dirty word, it's the goal.
"Weeeeeeeelllll, you'll come around."
Taking that verse a bit out of context though (assuming you're applying that to the war in Iraq).
I can find verses in the bible and use them out of context to justify war too. The same said:
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. Matt 10:34
'pro war christians' = ?
no offense.
I don't think I am taking it out of context at all. I am applying it to all war and violence.
As for the above verse....did Jesus ever actually pick up a sword? No. Was he speaking literally here? No, he was speaking metaphorically, metaphysically. I believe the only sword he wielded was the sword of truth. And the truth will certainly set a man against his own father and family members at times, does it not?
Last edited by Marceline88; 11-12-2007 at 06:52 PM.
"Weeeeeeeelllll, you'll come around."
Jesus never picked up a sword, but he also told his disciples that they could carry a sword. My point is Matthew 5 doesn't preach wholesale pacifism. Heck, God commanded the Jewish people to wipe out whole civilizations, children and all.
,.,.,
Last edited by Nicketas; 06-10-2008 at 01:08 PM.
wow, so Kade (and others I've seen posting on this forum) is willing to throw away the votes of what amounts to approximately 70% of the American people, who believe in God or consider themselves Christian, in the name of his hatred and disdain for them and their religious beliefs?
Oh yeah, and blame them all too for our political current mess?
Pffft to you.
Very un-Ron Paul.
There are some just war text books that Georgetown University used for teaching in the early 1980s.
They explain just war from a practical point of view.
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