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Thread: Stubborn Christians???

  1. #1

    Question Stubborn Christians???

    I'm a Christian myself, so this is by no means an attack.

    I think I tried too hard, or something...I'm so passionate that I looked angry. I tried to convert Christian friends, at least if anything to see how wrong this war is. Unfortunately, they associate my feelings with Ron's and it drove them away. They also thought I came across as thinking I was better than they are. UGH. So I am going to stop trying at least for now.

    I am just wondering has anyone successfully talked sense into pro war Christians?

    I was close to one of them, and I feel like I've lost her.



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  3. #2

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    Point them to Augustine's City of God which is the best articulation of the Just War Doctrine.

    Also, to some extent we might need to wait out the Huckabee campaign. When Huckabee eventually drops out, Paul will be the only pro-life Evangelical left in the race. So even though a Christian voter may disagree with his foreign policy, his other attributes may be strong enough to justify a vote.
    Last edited by tfelice; 11-02-2007 at 09:51 AM.

  4. #3

    Default Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by tfelice View Post
    Point them to Augustine's City of God which is the best articulation of the Just War Doctrine.

    Also, to some extent we might need to wait out the Huckabee campaign. When Huckabee eventually drops out, Paul will be the only pro-life Evangelical left in the race. So even though a Christian voter may disagree with his foreign policy, his other attributes may be strong enough to justify a vote.
    I will do that.

  5. #4

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    Don't sweat it, just learn from the experience and try again in a different and better way. Know the just war theory. War is an ABSOLUTE last resort. If people want to bomb Iran without even talking to them first that is pretty wrong and makes us the agressor. Iran said they would sign a no nuke treaty if Israel did too.

    Know Romans 13. The law of our land is the Constitution and must be followed, Bush et al is not the law or the true rule. Know the Constitution. Hand out a copy to people, you can buy pocket Constitutions cheap.

    Know the evils of our foreign policy. Sanctions killing hundreds of thousand of innocent people. Is that pro life? Our tax dollars are used to support countries that persecute people, especially Christians

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_...n_Saudi_Arabia
    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...rms/index.html
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2766003.shtml
    http://www.worthynews.com/christian/...leaving-islam/

    Be a teacher. Ask people to explain in detail things like "Iran is a threat". there is usually nothing to back it up. Have people read Dr. Paul's a foreign policy of freedom.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hCKZmkF0VU

    In the end I am going to put my faith in the principles of the Bible, the Constitution, and the founding fathers. Not the politicians, bureaucrats, and media who lie to us and serve nothing but themselves.

    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9).

  6. #5

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    for Catholics

    "The concept of a 'preventive war' does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church"
    - Pope Benedict XVI

    “Reasons sufficient for unleashing a war against Iraq did not exist”
    - Pope Benedict XVI

    "When war, like the one now in Iraq, threatens the fate of humanity, it is even more urgent for us to proclaim, with a firm and decisive voice, that only peace is the way of building a more just and caring society"
    - Pope John Paul II

    "Violence and weapons can never resolve the problems of man."
    - Pope John Paul II

    "Torture is a humiliation of the human person, whoever it is. The Church does not allow these means to extract the truth."
    - Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican pontifical council on peace and justice.

  7. #6

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    One thing that I have observed when having political (or religious for that matter) discussions with many people is that most people without being aware of it, want to be right and want other to agree with them and this can cause the reactions you are describing. It's a natural human tendency I think but perhaps more so in our US society. I have found that this can be diffused by simply stating that you are just giving your point of view and completely support the other persons point of view and will never hold it against them or judge them if they don't agree with you. In fact you don't want them to just believe you, you want them to find out for themselves, just as you did! Some people will still react as if you are trying to tell them what to think and there is little you can do but some people will be much more able to listen to your point of view and hear you. Also it is hard to be calm when these issues cause such passions in us however showing that too much can also keep others from hearing your message. Temper your passions, be calm and have a smile - these are ways you can disarm people and make them comfortable so they can hear you.

    One last thing - good friends are hard to find - don't let your passions push them away. On the other hand, if a friend turns their back on your because they don't believe what you believe then how much of a friend were they really?

    My humble opinion - for what its worth
    If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy.
    Thomas Jefferson


    Tired of Digg? Join Mixx and the Ron Paul group there.

  8. #7

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    In a few months the economy is going to bottom out. We will not be able to borrow money to support the foreign policy we have right now.

    The wisdom war will have to become a non-issue. There are a lot of wars that people can justify in one way or another, but frankly America cannot afford them.

    We can make a logical approach to why it benefits society that all children have good educations, families have homes, babies have top medical care, seniors have retirement, cats and dogs get neutered, etc etc...

    The questions always come down to.
    1) Is it wise?
    2) Can we afford it?

    Even if you think our foreign policy is wise, its a moot point. It might seem like a good idea to them, just like 5,000 dollars for each child in the USA, but it is not something we can afford to do. There is no getting around that point. We can't afford it. Period.
    "Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the grace of the Eternal God, will rout you out."- Andrew Jackson (The Guy on the 20)

    www.micahnelson.com

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by micahnelson View Post
    In a few months the economy is going to bottom out. We will not be able to borrow money to support the foreign policy we have right now.

    The wisdom war will have to become a non-issue. There are a lot of wars that people can justify in one way or another, but frankly America cannot afford them.

    We can make a logical approach to why it benefits society that all children have good educations, families have homes, babies have top medical care, seniors have retirement, cats and dogs get neutered, etc etc...

    The questions always come down to.
    1) Is it wise?
    2) Can we afford it?

    Even if you think our foreign policy is wise, its a moot point. It might seem like a good idea to them, just like 5,000 dollars for each child in the USA, but it is not something we can afford to do. There is no getting around that point. We can't afford it. Period.
    Of course, the neo-con answer to this will be "Can we afford NOT to (fight the war)?" It doesn't make any sense but they will keep the lemmings running over the cliff's edge...

  10. #9

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    What I have found is this:
    Show people all the ways they agree with Ron. Get them to say hey I like everything he is for except the war. Then you get to say, looking at ALL the issues which candidate do you agree with most? Then find a way to end the conversation. Let them think about it for a bit and they end up coming your way. That's how I won both of my parents anyway. Both of them are fundamentalist Christians.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Original_Intent View Post
    Of course, the neo-con answer to this will be "Can we afford NOT to (fight the war)?" It doesn't make any sense but they will keep the lemmings running over the cliff's edge...
    Can we afford to have our troops overseas when we cannot purchase oil to bring them home?

    Yes Terrorism is a threat, but compared to the military vulnerability of the mainland united states, it is minor. We can survive a few terrorist attacks, but we cannot survive a military strike from Russia or China when our soldiers are in the middle east without fuel to get home.

    Neo-cons want to worry about something? Try this.

    1) Saudi Arabia begins accepting mixed euro-dollar payments for oil under international pressure.
    2) National Banks begin dumping the Dollar as a reserve currency, major players leave the US market, the IMF does nothing as they are tired of the US monetary policy and are looking to put economic control in globalist friendly Europe. (They have indicated they believe the dollar is weak)
    3) Gas prices surge and politicians, afraid of the public, release most of the strategic oil reserve despite military objections(they have done this in the past)
    4) Saudi Arabia's OPEC abandons the dollar all together.
    5) Hyperinflation of the US Dollar due to the Feds attempt to keep banks solvent.
    6) Bank Runs, Food Runs, Rioting at home
    7) US Begins an emergency pull out of forces around the world. This is hampered by the inability to obtain oil. The hasty retreat makes us vulnerable and many terrorist attacks occur in the process.
    8) China and the Europeans claim rights to US Property in return for the US's inability to pay for its debt.
    9) Troops trickle in from around the world only to find Chaos in the streets, extremely limited fuel availability, and the impending threat of invasion over international debt.

    Welcome to America after the economic collapse, unless we get some decent leadership.
    "Gentlemen, I have had men watching you for a long time and I am convinced that you have used the funds of the bank to speculate in the breadstuffs of the country. When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the grace of the Eternal God, will rout you out."- Andrew Jackson (The Guy on the 20)

    www.micahnelson.com

  12. #11

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    No disrespect, but a lot of American Christians don't really understand the Bible. Well, so far as I read it.

  13. #12

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    I don't mean to be disrespectful to self-thinking Christians.

  14. #13

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    Rambling ideas follow:

    Mike Huckabee is currently being thoroughly trashed by Jerome Corsi and Phyllis Schlafly on WND for his facilitation of illegal immigration for the Tyson boys and other big corporate goons in AK. Someone on WND also pointed out his kissing up to the CFR with a foreign policy speech to one of the neocon think tanks and he is suddely getting puffed by the media. WND, Janet Folger and the Christian radio crowd are trying to puff Huckabee also, but they have also been on the NAU story and giving Corsi a lot of airtime.

    The casual Christian politico thinks of little more than gays, Islamos, and abortion and pays no attention to their own hypocrisy of embracing unbiblical and unchristian principles. Being anti-gay or whatever is not the basis for a philosophy of national government or foreign relations.


    Point out that our Republic is based on not just the 3 branches of the federal government with very limited and specified powers, but also that the mainstay of the republic is the local system of control as laid out in Deut 18 whereby Jethro told Moses to divide up the leadership responsiblilities by family units of 1000s, 100s, 50s and 10s. By and large justice and punishments were to be rendered within these units.

    If you research the origins of our local system in the Anglo world, you will find a similar system of 10s (overseen by a 'tithingman') 100s ( 'reeve') and several hundreds (a shire-reeve) .... i.e this where we get the term "sheriff," and so our local sheriff is supposed to be the most powerful law enforcement official around. If you have a man starving his wife (i.e. Michael Schhiavo), you drag him before the sheriff, testify against him, and , using rough ANE justice, bash his head in and be done with it. None of this baloney running off to the nation's capital or the UN or anywhere else.

    The Israelites were specifically ordered not to seek a king because they were under the rule of law, God's law, and were administer it locally, and not look to man for justice. Also, they were not to look to man for their protection from other wicked nations, but to God himself. They also were not supposed to go about willy-nilly attacking other nation's or stationing troops all over the world and going into debt to do it. They were to live out the covenant God gave them and to be an example to the world.

    This is basically what Dr. Paul teaches. When Israel went for "big government" i.e. a king , they were warned what they would get i.e. high taxes, standing armies, enslavement to the ruling class, being led into wickedness and all the rest of it. Big government is just a copout for hypocrites who don't want to live out the covenant themselves in their local communities. We want the gays out of marriage, but the churches don't have much respect for marriage anymore either they way people tend to move around between spouses these days. etc

    I also refer to things like the communist manifesto which has a nice little 10 point summary in i t on the ideas of godless collectivism: they include readily recognizable items such as "free" govt. schools, progressive income tax (IRS), central banking (Fed), the death tax , and centralization of the control of communications (note our spying system) and the economy.

    The other thing is trying to get people to have a realistic view of how the world really works. Basically we have the corporate one world slave state being put into place and we're just being used by the one-worlders to knock each other off so they can clean up the remnants. They are trying to reduce the world's population and control the resources and if they can't get everyone on the china 1 child policy, they are willing to resort to war.

    Do they know about the military bases going in in Iraq? Do they know a bout the 4,000 children dying every month from diarheaa and other wasting 3rd world diseases? Do they know about the taxi drivers who get shot in the throat chancing into a patrol that just got carbombed or Iraqi women who go shopping and happen into a road block with bad radio communication and get shot in the face? This happens by the 1000s every year ... the videos are all over the place. Do they know about the false flag bombing the British special forces tried to pull in Basra a couple years ago where 2 Brits got caught with a car full of explosives? etc etc etc

  15. #14

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    I'm a Christian too, and I think Ron Paul is the only candidate a Christian can vote for with a clear conscience. Here are my issues:

    Pro-Life: I have long argued that pro-life is more than just anti-abortion. It means to support divinely created and divinely ended life. That means no capital punishment, and no war without justification, no euthanasia, no abortion, no cloning, no messing with the creation or destruction of human life. That's God's business not ours. Ron Paul is the only candidate that is consistent on these issues.

    Freedom & Freewill: This is a fundamental Christian principle. God has seen to it we are free to do as we please; to serve Him, to serve ourselves, to good or evil is a right God has ordained to us. As far as government goes, it is not for the government to second guess or implement this other than to protect individual liberty. This is the precept that makes freedom the unifying transcendental principle in government - to ensure God's will for the freewill of man is preserved, thus rendering the management of mankind to God. Whether it's smoking pot, patronizing hookers, or going to the house of worship of your choice, God is on control and everything seeks and leads to His good purpose. Ron Paul is the only candidate that has shown any respect for the principle of divinely ordained freewill.

    Love: John 15 says that we have only ten commandments, and one more; to love one another. As much as Christians would like to believe, neither Paul, James nor Peter issued commandments. They gave good godly advice. This command to love one another plays out in myriad ways in government. Is it love that puts felons in a data base and ensures they are made miserable for the rest of their lives? we are commanded to love our enemies, to pray for them and to heap upon their heads the coals of kindness. Is any of this being done in the Middle East or in either the domestic or foreign affairs of the US? Ron Paul is the only candidate that will not villianize Arabs, gays, and a myriad of other groups that we should be reaching out to with love and kindness. Let judgement be reserved for the Almighty Judge whose judgement is never wrong.

    Romans 13: Neocons will use this verse to justify everything government does and condemn all dissent. Oddly enough, it didn't apply when Clinton was in office. But how can this be when the man who wrote it, Paul, spent over half his life in jail? The realit for Christian Americans is that Romans 13 speaks not about elected officials and their policies, but the Constitution. This is the supreme law of the land and authority that should govern us all. So the correct application of Romans 13 is to respect the Constitution as if it were God breathed. Ron Paul is the only candidate who has respect for our founding guiding document.

    That should be enough. I often chastise Christians who blindly believe that Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh and other right wing demagogues have anything to do with righteousness or Christian doctrine. By their fruits you shall know them. Look at Iraq, look at the financial state of America, the oppressed state of so many of our people. Are these the fruits of godly men?
    If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams

    http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=JohnFromChicago

  16. #15

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    I've talked with several close Christian friends who shocked me when they implied that they believe all this mess, and far worse to come, was intended by God to bring about the end times for his return.

    Additionally, they have no problem with mandatory implanted RFID chips (mark of the beast), even if they would themselves resist it, as that would further prove their belief that the return is near.

    I don't think a slim jim will work here.


    .

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by RP08 View Post
    I've talked with several close Christian friends who shocked me when they implied that they believe all this mess, and far worse to come, was intended by God to bring about the end times for his return.

    Additionally, they have no problem with mandatory implanted RFID chips (mark of the beast), even if they would themselves resist it, as that would further prove their belief that the return is near.

    I don't think a slim jim will work here.


    .

    Dispensationalists are a tough nut to crack when it comes to these issues. Concentrate on what can work. Once Huckabee drops out Paul will be the only pro-life Evangelical in the race. Even the more ardent Dispensationalist places the sanctity of life over support for Israel.

  18. #17

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    I'm a Christian too and yes, I have convinced some Christians.
    First you need to get yourself brushed up on Ron Paul's pro-Chrisian attributes.
    Then you need to brush up on a christian's proper attitude towards war and government. Then you need to brush up on bible prophesy and the evil forces at work as we speak which should be of concern to all Christians, for they not doubt hold a special sigificance relative to end times prophesies.

    I'm not refering to conspiracy theories, but as the John Birch Society says, a very real conspiracy called the New World Order.
    This NWO is the name for the plan of very powerful world leaders behind the sceness and in the public eye, in government and industry, particulaily banking and the military industrial complex. Oil included in the latter. These people hope to some day control all of the wealth and every governent on the planet in the form of a one world govdernment.
    Over the years, a method that Brezinski called, "progressive regionalization" was used to weave together the different components comprised of financial and governmental institutions. Some are called Trade Agreements that later and progressively take on more and more, the proper role of self determining governments and circumvent the democratic processes in free countries. And whether free or monarchial, the countries, one after another are losing their sense of sovereignty and self determination including the USA.

    Start here
    http://dowblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/...-ron-paul.html

    To get a better understanding of Paul’s views relative to Christianity

    The Sanctity of Life Act HR 776 Introduced in 2005 by Ron Paul
    Would have ended abortion on demand
    http://orientem.blogspot.com/2007/03/pro-life-paul.html



    I'll bring more later

  19. #18

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    OK This link is very important to informing yourself about the Christian's proper attitude towards war and govenrment. The link will bring you to Laurence Vances many articles published on www.lewrockwell.com
    He's written many books and articles on this subject.

    Hope this helps. I'll try to dig up more for you

  20. #19

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    Coming from a heavily Christian background, a lot of Christians, if you think about it, have something in common with some of our anarchist friends who hang around these parts...

    Both want the bloody revolution.

    Christians are eager for the second coming of Christ and see Armageddon and World War as a necessary step to fulfilling the Biblical prophecy. They really believe we are living in the end times, and all this talk of nuclear holocaust and spritual battle (with Islam. that's as good an antichrist as any) feeds into that. They secretly and fervently WANT a war. Now. Then they can see Jesus coming through the clouds to rapture them. It will be a beautiful sight and brings tears of joy to their eyes just to envision it.

    There's unfortunately not much you can do with that line of thinking except maybe see if the person will identify that that is their underlying view of the situation, maybe ask "what if you're wrong and Bush is playing you for a chump? Actually if this is the end times would god need Bush's help to bring it about, and do you see the battle of Armageddon in actual physical battle terms, or spiritual terms, because Jesus was a spiritual leader, not a military one..."

    Those kinds of questions... then talk about free will and economics, and how charity is a better way to take care of the poor than government wealth redistribution, and Jesus' example because you might find common ground with them there. You might.

    Our anarchist friends have given up on the idea of changing the system from within and are ready for the bloody revolution to ensue.

    I see both lines of thinking as scary. Just calm down and vote Ron Paul.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by tfelice View Post
    Dispensationalists are a tough nut to crack when it comes to these issues. Concentrate on what can work. Once Huckabee drops out Paul will be the only pro-life Evangelical in the race. Even the more ardent Dispensationalist places the sanctity of life over support for Israel.
    I wouldn't blame it on dispensationalism, per se. As a former dispensationalist, the pastor who taught me, and who I still very much respect, never for a moment thought there was anything humanity could do to force God's hand. He taught me that things will work out the way God intends and that my goal was to spread the gospel. I can only hope that reasonable positions like that will ultimately prevail.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by jb4ronpaul View Post
    Don't sweat it, just learn from the experience and try again in a different and better way. Know the just war theory. War is an ABSOLUTE last resort. If people want to bomb Iran without even talking to them first that is pretty wrong and makes us the agressor. Iran said they would sign a no nuke treaty if Israel did too.

    Know Romans 13. The law of our land is the Constitution and must be followed, Bush et al is not the law or the true rule. Know the Constitution. Hand out a copy to people, you can buy pocket Constitutions cheap.

    Know the evils of our foreign policy. Sanctions killing hundreds of thousand of innocent people. Is that pro life? Our tax dollars are used to support countries that persecute people, especially Christians

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_...n_Saudi_Arabia
    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...rms/index.html
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2766003.shtml
    http://www.worthynews.com/christian/...leaving-islam/

    Be a teacher. Ask people to explain in detail things like "Iran is a threat". there is usually nothing to back it up. Have people read Dr. Paul's a foreign policy of freedom.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hCKZmkF0VU

    In the end I am going to put my faith in the principles of the Bible, the Constitution, and the founding fathers. Not the politicians, bureaucrats, and media who lie to us and serve nothing but themselves.

    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" (Matthew 5:9).


    I had mentioned those who are pro war can't be pro life. It just made them angry.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatefalseweight View Post
    The Israelites were specifically ordered not to seek a king because they were under the rule of law, God's law, and were administer it locally, and not look to man for justice. Also, they were not to look to man for their protection from other wicked nations, but to God himself. They also were not supposed to go about willy-nilly attacking other nation's or stationing troops all over the world and going into debt to do it. They were to live out the covenant God gave them and to be an example to the world.

    This is basically what Dr. Paul teaches. When Israel went for "big government" i.e. a king , they were warned what they would get i.e. high taxes, standing armies, enslavement to the ruling class, being led into wickedness and all the rest of it. Big government is just a copout for hypocrites who don't want to live out the covenant themselves in their local communities. We want the gays out of marriage, but the churches don't have much respect for marriage anymore either they way people tend to move around between spouses these days. etc

    I also refer to things like the communist manifesto which has a nice little 10 point summary in i t on the ideas of godless collectivism: they include readily recognizable items such as "free" govt. schools, progressive income tax (IRS), central banking (Fed), the death tax , and centralization of the control of communications (note our spying system) and the economy.

    The other thing is trying to get people to have a realistic view of how the world really works. Basically we have the corporate one world slave state being put into place and we're just being used by the one-worlders to knock each other off so they can clean up the remnants. They are trying to reduce the world's population and control the resources and if they can't get everyone on the china 1 child policy, they are willing to resort to war.

    Do they know about the military bases going in in Iraq? Do they know a bout the 4,000 children dying every month from diarheaa and other wasting 3rd world diseases? Do they know about the taxi drivers who get shot in the throat chancing into a patrol that just got carbombed or Iraqi women who go shopping and happen into a road block with bad radio communication and get shot in the face? This happens by the 1000s every year ... the videos are all over the place. Do they know about the false flag bombing the British special forces tried to pull in Basra a couple years ago where 2 Brits got caught with a car full of explosives? etc etc etc
    Snipped for brevity...I hope it's ok but I'd like to copy and paste this. Great explanations...thank you.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by RP08 View Post
    I've talked with several close Christian friends who shocked me when they implied that they believe all this mess, and far worse to come, was intended by God to bring about the end times for his return.

    Additionally, they have no problem with mandatory implanted RFID chips (mark of the beast), even if they would themselves resist it, as that would further prove their belief that the return is near.

    I don't think a slim jim will work here.


    .
    So you can sympathize then. It's so frustrating.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauliana View Post
    Coming from a heavily Christian background, a lot of Christians, if you think about it, have something in common with some of our anarchist friends who hang around these parts...

    Both want the bloody revolution.

    Christians are eager for the second coming of Christ and see Armageddon and World War as a necessary step to fulfilling the Biblical prophecy. They really believe we are living in the end times, and all this talk of nuclear holocaust and spritual battle (with Islam. that's as good an antichrist as any) feeds into that. They secretly and fervently WANT a war. Now. Then they can see Jesus coming through the clouds to rapture them. It will be a beautiful sight and brings tears of joy to their eyes just to envision it.

    There's unfortunately not much you can do with that line of thinking except maybe see if the person will identify that that is their underlying view of the situation, maybe ask "what if you're wrong and Bush is playing you for a chump? Actually if this is the end times would god need Bush's help to bring it about, and do you see the battle of Armageddon in actual physical battle terms, or spiritual terms, because Jesus was a spiritual leader, not a military one..."

    Those kinds of questions... then talk about free will and economics, and how charity is a better way to take care of the poor than government wealth redistribution, and Jesus' example because you might find common ground with them there. You might.

    Our anarchist friends have given up on the idea of changing the system from within and are ready for the bloody revolution to ensue.

    I see both lines of thinking as scary. Just calm down and vote Ron Paul.
    You know what makes me mad about that though? It's like they're trying to control what is to come. A Christian is supposed to run on God's timing. I really don't care for John Hagee. He's a prime example of one who wants war for Armageddon.

  26. #25

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    This is changing the subject some what. But I really worry when Ron gets elected who can stop the Neocons from jumping on board and ruining the whole thing?
    I am sure they seek power anywhere.
    Will Christians allow this to happen?

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by inibo View Post
    I wouldn't blame it on dispensationalism, per se. As a former dispensationalist, the pastor who taught me, and who I still very much respect, never for a moment thought there was anything humanity could do to force God's hand. He taught me that things will work out the way God intends and that my goal was to spread the gospel. I can only hope that reasonable positions like that will ultimately prevail.
    Agreed. But I will say the mindset that was referenced earlier certainly comes out more from the Dispensationalists that from the other eschatological positions.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehittgirl View Post
    I'm a Christian myself, so this is by no means an attack.

    I think I tried too hard, or something...I'm so passionate that I looked angry. I tried to convert Christian friends, at least if anything to see how wrong this war is. Unfortunately, they associate my feelings with Ron's and it drove them away. They also thought I came across as thinking I was better than they are. UGH. So I am going to stop trying at least for now.

    I am just wondering has anyone successfully talked sense into pro war Christians?

    I was close to one of them, and I feel like I've lost her.
    Even the elect will be deceived...
    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
    -Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

  29. #28

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    Aren't Christians in America broadly divided into 2 factions?

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozwest View Post
    Aren't Christians in America broadly divided into 2 factions?
    To a point yes. Those would be Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism.

  31. #30

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    remember when Jesus sends out the Apostles, he instructs them to talk to people, and if they do not respond shake the dust from your feet and move on.

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